Impatient Palestinians eye Arab world in flux

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,986
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very interesting read!@!! Especially this part--
In Gaza, ruled by the rival Hamas movement, a current is emerging from the ground up: people are beginning to question four years of life under an Islamic militant group that has opposed peace efforts, ruled with an iron fist and tried to enforce a strict religious lifestyle. Although revolt seems unlikely for now, the crowded coastal strip has experienced a series of demonstrations with youths calling for national reconciliation between the two Palestinian territories.

Very well written article!!


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110326/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_palestinians_arab_spring

RAMALLAH, West Bank – Could the Arab Spring pass over the Palestinians?

With the peace process going nowhere, the threat of new violence increasing and the Palestinians badly divided, people in the West Bank and Gaza are surveying the rapid changes in the rest of the Arab world — and growing impatient with stagnation at home.

In Ramallah, the seat of the Palestinian Authority, officials are quietly working on a plan: Going for statehood without agreement with Israel, bypassing the moribund peace process. First mooted last fall, the notion precedes the Arab revolts but has been lent even greater urgency by them.

In Gaza, ruled by the rival Hamas movement, a current is emerging from the ground up: people are beginning to question four years of life under an Islamic militant group that has opposed peace efforts, ruled with an iron fist and tried to enforce a strict religious lifestyle. Although revolt seems unlikely for now, the crowded coastal strip has experienced a series of demonstrations with youths calling for national reconciliation between the two Palestinian territories.

Despite the stirrings, Palestinians in both areas have not risen up in great numbers as in Egypt, or caused riots that turned deadly as in Syria.

But that could change, especially if the statehood hopes fizzle — or if the Arab revolts come closer to home, perhaps engulfing the neighboring kingdom of Jordan, whose majority is Palestinian and from where revolutionary sentiment could easily spread to the West Bank.

"I believe that change is coming to our part of the world. We need as Palestinians to catch the moment," said Saed Issac, a 22-year-old law student in Gaza. "It's time for national unity first, to elect new leaders, and to work hard to achieve our task to end the occupation."

Issac was referring to Israel's control over Palestinians' lives — which Palestinians feel applies not only to the West Bank, where power is shared in a complex arrangement dating back to the 1990 autonomy accords, but also in besieged Gaza, even though Israeli settlers and soldiers pulled out five years ago.

In Israel, many eye the changes in the Arab world warily, fearing freedom could unleash more hostility — and that is doubly true when it comes to the Palestinians.

"Sooner or later, the Arab revolt will reach (the Palestinians)," wrote columnist Ari Shavit in the Haaretz newspaper. He said the Palestinians were influenced by "the trauma of Hamas' rise in the Gaza Strip, relative prosperity in the West Bank" and the expectation of statehood materializing within months. If that expectation is disappointed "a political tsunami" will result, he predicted.

Hamas won a 2006 vote, beating Palestinian president Mahmoud Abbas' Fatah party and emerging with a majority in parliament. Feeling it was denied its rightful share of power, the group's militants seized Gaza by force a year later, leaving Palestinians divided between rival governments.

A paradoxical challenge results: Hamas won elections but rules Gaza in authoritarian fashion, while Fatah, despite canceling recent elections, has made strides in convincing the world community that in the West Bank it is genuinely laying the foundations of a functioning independent state.

The picture that emerges from interviews with top Palestinian Authority officials, most off the record, marks a break from past policies that ranged from negotiations to violence and terror attacks. It combines what seems like genuine commitment to nonviolence with utter impatience with more talks with Israel.

September — which President Barack Obama had earlier set as a target for a negotiated peace deal — is emerging as the focus here as well.

"Negotiations have hit a dead end, and the U.S. administration is not willing to pressure Israel. Therefore, we have no other option except taking our case to the international community," said Palestinian negotiator Mohammed Ishtayeh.

Abbas' prime minister, Salam Fayyad, has long cited September 2011 as the moment his people will be ready for independence, after a two-year program of rehabilitating courts, police and other institutions. It also coincides with the annual meeting of world leaders at the U.N. General Assembly.

Ishtayeh said Abbas would seize that moment to ask in his address to world leaders for recognition of a Palestinian state in the West Bank and east Jerusalem as well as Gaza — lands that were captured in the 1967 Middle East war

Success in the assembly seems far more likely than in the more powerful U.N. Security Council, whose decisions are legally binding but where the United States, still committed to a negotiated settlement, would probably use its veto power.

The Palestinians say 120 of the 192 countries in the General Assembly have already granted full diplomatic recognition to Palestine, including a recent string of Latin American nations. Many have said the state should be based along the pre-1967 boundary between Israel and the West Bank — effectively taking the Palestinians' side on the border question, since Israel hopes to keep parts of the West Bank under a future deal.

Israel had previously dismissed the General Assembly as toothless, but that is starting to change.

In an interview with the Jerusalem Post Friday, former Israeli U.N. Ambassador Gabriela Shalev warned that a General Assembly resolution might be meaningful if passed under the auspices of so-called Resolution 377, a little-used device dating back to the Korean War that permits the body to recommend measures ranging from sanctions to the use of force in cases where the Security Council members cannot reach unanimity and peace is imperiled.

"This would seek to impose on us some kind of Palestinian state," Shalev was quoted as saying.

Although a General Assembly declaration might not force immediate change on the ground, the Palestinians see it as a major step that would "give us new political, moral and legal standing against the Israeli occupation," Ishtayeh said.

Inspired by the unrest elsewhere in the region, the Palestinians are also considering backing the diplomatic offensive with peaceful — and photogenic — mass marches and sit-ins across the West Bank, confronting Israeli checkpoints and settlements.

A peaceful march of thousands at the gates of a big settlement could put Israel in an awkward situation in which forcibly preventing them from entering could easily backfire.

One senior Palestinian official said the strategy, following the successful uprisings that ousted leaders in Egypt and Tunisia, would be meant to push the U.S. to take action.

A Facebook group called "Let's End the Occupation" has already sprouted up, saying it is preparing demonstrations near the Beit El settlement near Jerusalem later this year.

One risk, Palestinian officials privately say, is that militants could take over the effort, leading to violence and risking a resumption of the uprising that killed some 6,000 Palestinians — alongside about 1,000 Israelis — between 2000 and 2005.

If all else fails Palestinians warn they might disband the Palestinian Authority — a move that would saddle Israel with responsibility for civil and security affairs in the West Bank, huge expenses and a public relations nightmare.

The hopes for a major diplomatic push explain the current effort by Abbas to reconcile with Hamas. He has offered to travel to Gaza and proposed a reconciliation plan that includes elections in both areas, also in September.

As long as peace talks were an option, Abbas could not afford to alienate Israel by embracing its archenemy this way. But the equation changes now that hardly a single Palestinian official can be found who believes in peace talks anymore: World recognition demands a unified front. And because the new strategy does not actually require the Palestinians to offer Israel formal peace, Hamas could be more likely to go along.

"Abbas can't go to the dance alone. He needs Hamas," said Ibrahim Fahmi, a Gaza analyst.

The Iranian-backed militants have responded coolly. They seem, for the moment, to prefer to wait and see what emerges in Cairo; perhaps the new government there will ease the blockade on Gaza from the Egyptian side. That would ease a lot of the pressure on Hamas by improving conditions in the strip, and would make reconciliation less urgent. Continued fighting with Israel — which has surged in recent days — would also divert attention away from reconciliation and diplomatic efforts.

But there is a certain foment growing from within. Its scale is difficult to gauge, because fear is still widespread, but recent weeks have seen repeated popular protests, which Hamas has alternately supported and violently dispersed.

"Hamas needs to listen to the young generation's demands," Fahmi said. "The whole world is changing. You can feel it. So can Hamas."
 

Icepick

Diamond Member
Nov 1, 2004
3,663
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A revolt against the militant Hamas would be the best thing for the majority of Palestinians. Maybe then they'd have room for a decent government system that could allow them to enter the 21st century and have a better quality of life.
 

_GTech

Member
Mar 25, 2011
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The smaller the nation the greater threat of violence & ultimately the military & police standing in the street with guns ensuring things don't get out of hand, but if the Government in place decides to shoot the protestors, oh man...

It would be very quick blood bath with many casualties. I don't think a revolt or rebellion would be wise in such small nations where the only hope the people have is for the police & military to join in... Otherwise much fighting will ensue and eventually guns will be used.

Remember guns don't kill people, people kill people.
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,986
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The smaller the nation the greater threat of violence & ultimately the military & police standing in the street with guns ensuring things don't get out of hand, but if the Government in place decides to shoot the protestors, oh man...

It would be very quick blood bath with many casualties. I don't think a revolt or rebellion would be wise in such small nations where the only hope the people have is for the police & military to join in... Otherwise much fighting will ensue and eventually guns will be used.

Remember guns don't kill people, people kill people.

good point! As in the case of Syria!!
Thats how they have managed to stay a secular government...so to speak!!
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
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If the Palestinians are going to revolt against a US-backed oppressor like others, their first target doesn't make sense to be the government they elected to oppose Israel.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
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Unlike the West Bank and Fatah, Hamas and the Gaza strip have the greater potential to become a defacto Palestinian State. All the people of Gaza need is Egyptian co-operation in the Israeli boycott of their economy, and they are in fact an instant Palestinian State.

No pesky Israelis to expel, they would then be free to build their own economy, import and export freely, and be able to have seaports on their own coast line.

The West Bank and Fatah have a bigger problem in a road to Statehood, they have all those crazed Israeli settlers to expel, they have no sea ports, they would have to depend on only Jordan as an import export partner or rejoin and link up to Hamas.

Right now Israel artificially depresses the economy of both the West bank and Gaza, leaving neither any real way to advance themselves, but given the opportunity, all rational people would prefer to have the opportunity to help themselves with hard work rather than waste their time in attacking an unbeatable Israel.
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
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<snip>

Right now Israel artificially depresses the economy of both the West bank and Gaza, leaving neither any real way to advance themselves, but given the opportunity, all rational people would prefer to have the opportunity to help themselves with hard work rather than waste their time in attacking an unbeatable Israel.

Maybe if Gaza would try to be peaceful neighbors with Israel they would no longer have the blockade and all the dreams that you have for them would exists.

All that energy could be put into making Gaza the Jewel of the Med that it used to be.


Again, as you aptly pointed out, they are their own worst enemy.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
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Maybe if Gaza would try to be peaceful neighbors with Israel they would no longer have the blockade and all the dreams that you have for them would exists.

All that energy could be put into making Gaza the Jewel of the Med that it used to be.


Again, as you aptly pointed out, they are their own worst enemy.
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No Common Courtesy, I never said the Pals are their own worst enemy. Its Israel that gives the Pals no good options.

And even if the Pals are good little boys and girls, Israel simply ignores them, if a few Pals are not all good little boys and girls, Israel collectively punishes all Palestinians regardless if they are rotten or nice.

But now that Israel has lost Egypt as the other half of the Israeli economic embargo of Gaza, its a brand new ball game for the self determination of the Gaza economy. If Gaza can make a go of it, there is not a damn thing Israel can do. As both Fatah in the West Bank and Israel watch Gaza achieve statehood. Honor satisfied, Gaza will finally have far better things to do than only peg a few ineffectual few rockets into Israel.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
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interesting not found. pretty boring IMO[/QUOTE
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I agree with SandEagle, interesting not found, but it still ignores anything profound.

Because there may be something noble about the establishment of the Israeli state in 1948, but when that same Israeli state is built upon the Nazi like oppression of the Palestinian people in the process, all that Israeli nobility is lost.

Its now time to demand some Palestinian justice too, so both Israel and a Palestinian people can both win. But when Israel is the greatest obstacle to a Palestinian State, Israel is increasingly skating on thin ice.

Earth to Israel, earth to Israel, your position has taken an international beating in the past decade, but the past decade is nothing comparable to how bad the international Israeli beating has suffered in the past nine months.

And if Israel thinks its bad now, if Israel does not wake up and smell the coffee, Israel will be far worse off in another six months.
 

KMFJD

Lifer
Aug 11, 2005
33,405
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I only see the following happening

10 Palestinians somehow attack Israel
20 Israel Responds
30 LL etc cry when Israel retaliates
40 goto step 10
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
0
I only see the following happening

10 Palestinians somehow attack Israel
20 Israel Responds
30 LL etc cry when Israel retaliates
40 goto step 10
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I can't say that the KMFJD computer algorithm has not worked in the past, but only a fool assumes that will always last.
 

KMFJD

Lifer
Aug 11, 2005
33,405
53,434
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I can't say that the KMFJD computer algorithm has not worked in the past, but only a fool assumes that will always last.

You just need to eliminate the first step
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,589
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<snip>

Right now Israel artificially depresses the economy of both the West bank and Gaza, leaving neither any real way to advance themselves, but given the opportunity, all rational people would prefer to have the opportunity to help themselves with hard work rather than waste their time in attacking an unbeatable Israel.

Maybe if Gaza would try to be peaceful neighbors with Israel they would no longer have the blockade and all the dreams that you have for them would exists.

All that energy could be put into making Gaza the Jewel of the Med that it used to be.


Again, as you aptly pointed out, they are their own worst enemy.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No Common Courtesy, I never said the Pals are their own worst enemy. Its Israel that gives the Pals no good options.

And even if the Pals are good little boys and girls, Israel simply ignores them, if a few Pals are not all good little boys and girls, Israel collectively punishes all Palestinians regardless if they are rotten or nice.

But now that Israel has lost Egypt as the other half of the Israeli economic embargo of Gaza, its a brand new ball game for the self determination of the Gaza economy. If Gaza can make a go of it, there is not a damn thing Israel can do. As both Fatah in the West Bank and Israel watch Gaza achieve statehood. Honor satisfied, Gaza will finally have far better things to do than only peg a few ineffectual few rockets into Israel.

1) The embargo is still in place by Egypt. the change of government has not reduced/removed the blockade.

2) And what I quoted of you apparently must not be what you said.
all rational people would prefer to have the opportunity to help themselves with hard work rather than waste their time in attacking an unbeatable Israel.

either you are stating the Palestinians in Gaza are not rational

or

They should stop the attacking of Israel (which they realize can not be won) and concentrate on helping themselves with hard work.


So are they irrational or are they unable to realize that once they stop attacking Israel that they can move forward and grow themselves?

Those sound like they are doing the damage to themselves.


Your use of the word prefer indicates that they have a choice and know what they are.

It is not Israel, but the Palestinians that are keeping the Palestinians down.
So operating under the assumption that the Palestinians have no other enemies; they are the only thing holding them down because the way up is clear and ignored.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
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Maybe I can kill two birds* with one stone by addressing both the Common Courtesy and the KMFJD concerns. And I can do so by rewriting the algorithm to anytime or anywhere. I will choose to do so by looking at it from the perspective of American Slave holder circa 1855

First there is a pre condition, external forces go to Africa, kidnap foreign nationals, transport the kidnapped to America, and sell them to American slave holders who conveniently made slave holding legal in America. And we all know its the pre-condition that was morally representable

Then we can write

10 Some slaves revolt and kill their masters.
20 Slave holders retaliate killing far many more slaves than slaveholders killed
30 Northern abolitionists cry but do nothing.
40 loop---either go back to step 10, loop as many times as needed to go to final step 50
50 Northern Abolitionists finally get pissed off enough at Southern Slaveholders to
raise an army that frees their slaves.

What Common Courtesy and KMFJD conveniently ignore is the fact that what Israel is doing to the Palestinians is evil and wrong. But if the Pals do revolt against inhumane treatment they get blamed for Israeli having to kill them. When any rational person would find being robbed by Israel and tossed into concentrations camps as being something Israel was morally wrong in doing. But if we accept silence from American slaves as being an endorsement of American slavery behavior, then America would still be a slave holding nation.

The fact that the larger world has not forcefully stopped Israel yet is simply a matter of time. At every turn of events, I see that time as coming ever closer. Common Courtesy can argue its not happened yet, but given how long American slavery lasted, I don't think in time periods of months or only one year when I say that step 50 is looming ever closer. And its that coming step 50 that Israel will have no answer to. And its Israel that fails to understand that it has, gotten on the last nerve of everyone else in the world with their arrogance and endless stalling over a settlement freeze and achieving a Palestinian State.

While we can hope the Israeli people are rational enough to give Bozo Netanyuhu and his crazed settler parties out of power before the end happens. The other hand may be a straw that broke the camels back situation, and if that is the outcome, its going to be far far worse for Israel.

* no actual birds killed in this analogy.
 
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EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,589
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LL seems to think that it is Israel that is keeping the Pals down.

The Arabs initially put the Pals in this situation by starting the war in '48
Then they kept them that way by ignoring that the Palestinians might have a state aka pre '67 borders.
Egypt controlled the Gaza strip and shut off movement into the their country.

Why is Egypt not also at fault for keeping the Palestinians down?

All the Palestinians have to do is stop attacking Israel and be willing to settle for a five letter word.

They refuse to.

They are their own worst enemy - choosing conflict that they know they can not win vs pouring the energy into building a better future.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
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Common Courtesy, saying exactly the same things American slaveholders said in 1860.

Of course American slaveholders using the deflection argument of States rights too, but five years later, they were shocked and stunned when their jig was finally up.

Israel has been in the keeping Palestinians down business for only 63 years, American slaveholders enjoyed a far longer run. But still the day finally comes, when the jig is finally up. All Bozo Netanyuhu is doing is accelerating the final end.

The only question is will Israeli Apartheid go in South African Apartheid wise way, or will Israel have to pay in blood like Southern Slaveholders did. Using your analogy, do you really think the two bumps on a warthogs ass population of Israel can keep getting away with defying the outrage of the entire world? Just look at the past one year, and look how far Israel has slipped. Its lost its only two mid-east allies, its openly defying the President of the USA, and angering everyone by refusing a settlement freeze on land it can never own.