Immunity for telecoms upheld!!!

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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
83,718
47,407
136
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: Specop 007
Originally posted by: cliftonite
Originally posted by: Specop 007
Good.

How? You are adamant about your right to bear arms (with which I have no problem with) but ae willing to let other consitutional rights be trampled?

Absolutely not. I value each and every single Right we have.

HOWEVER. I do NOT think private business should be held accountable for questionable actions by our government. THAT is as great a travesty in my eyes as the government not recognizing our Rights.

I agree. The issue here IMO is not the telecoms but the govt officials forcing the telecoms to do their dirty work.

Meh. The whole thing stinks.

How was the government 'forcing' anyone?
 

RightIsWrong

Diamond Member
Apr 29, 2005
5,649
0
0
Originally posted by: Specop 007
Originally posted by: cliftonite
Originally posted by: Specop 007
Originally posted by: cliftonite
Originally posted by: Specop 007
Good.

How? You are adamant about your right to bear arms (with which I have no problem with) but ae willing to let other consitutional rights be trampled?

Absolutely not. I value each and every single Right we have.

HOWEVER. I do NOT think private business should be held accountable for questionable actions by our government. THAT is as great a travesty in my eyes as the government not recognizing our Rights.

Did the businesses not have a choice? Could they not have refused and let the government pursue a legal course instead of bending over?

Hahaha, thats sure easy to say when you arent the one staring down the .gov.

Tell you what. You can go out and see how easy it is. Next time you see a police checkpoint I want you to drive through it without stopping.....

Point being, in regards to the government its usually the safer course to do as they say up front and pursue it in the court of law. At least then if its found the request from the Feds was illegal you can stop the practice. If however the request is supported you'd be fined to high hell for non compliance in the first place.

Once again, you absolve corporations for violating the law because it isn't the easy thing to do.

QWest certainly didn't think that they had no choice. Then again, they did lose multimillion dollar contracts as retribution for doing the right thing. Something the leaders of this administration know nothing about.
 

Specop 007

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2005
9,454
0
0
I'll put it this way.

If the telecomms were found responsible thats right where the buck would have stopped. They would have taken full responsibility for the wiretaps and the government would have walked away scott free.

THIS route almost ensures the government will be found responsible for any violations of our rights.

Now in the big picture who do we want held accountable?? The telecomms who just did what they were asked, or the government itself that requested and pursued the wiretaps?
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,030
2
61
Originally posted by: RightIsWrong
Once again, you absolve corporations for violating the law because it isn't the easy thing to do.

QWest certainly didn't think that they had no choice. Then again, they did lose multimillion dollar contracts as retribution for doing the right thing. Something the leaders of this administration know nothing about.

Well, I don't know what is worse, really. The administration doing it, or the Democrats letting them get away with it.

Once again, the Republicans are raping us, and the Democrats are just handing out condoms.
 

cliftonite

Diamond Member
Jul 15, 2001
6,898
63
91
Originally posted by: Specop 007
I'll put it this way.

If the telecomms were found responsible thats right where the buck would have stopped. They would have taken full responsibility for the wiretaps and the government would have walked away scott free.

THIS route almost ensures the government will be found responsible for any violations of our rights.

Now in the big picture who do we want held accountable?? The telecomms who just did what they were asked, or the government itself that requested and pursued the wiretaps?[/q]

Both, they did not have to do something they knew was against the law.
 

Specop 007

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2005
9,454
0
0
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: Specop 007
Originally posted by: cliftonite
Originally posted by: Specop 007
Good.

How? You are adamant about your right to bear arms (with which I have no problem with) but ae willing to let other consitutional rights be trampled?

Absolutely not. I value each and every single Right we have.

HOWEVER. I do NOT think private business should be held accountable for questionable actions by our government. THAT is as great a travesty in my eyes as the government not recognizing our Rights.

I agree. The issue here IMO is not the telecoms but the govt officials forcing the telecoms to do their dirty work.

Meh. The whole thing stinks.

How was the government 'forcing' anyone?

I wish I lived in a sheltered fairytale land like you.

You really have no idea how the government works do you? Well, like I said above, drive through a police checkpoint and you'll quickly learn.
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,030
2
61
Originally posted by: Specop 007
THIS route almost ensures the government will be found responsible for any violations of our rights.

I very much doubt that. Kucinich tried to hold them responsible and the rest of the Democrats turned their nose at him.
 

Specop 007

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2005
9,454
0
0
Originally posted by: cliftonite
Originally posted by: Specop 007
I'll put it this way.

If the telecomms were found responsible thats right where the buck would have stopped. They would have taken full responsibility for the wiretaps and the government would have walked away scott free.

THIS route almost ensures the government will be found responsible for any violations of our rights.

Now in the big picture who do we want held accountable?? The telecomms who just did what they were asked, or the government itself that requested and pursued the wiretaps?[/

Both, they did not have to do something they knew was against the law.

At the time of request were the wiretaps found to be illegal? Or was it a grey aarea?

Trust me, when dealing with the .gov if its a grey area you play ball and pursue it in the court of law.

JUST LIKE WHEN YOU AND I DEAL WITH POLICE. You play ball even if you KNOW your rights are being violated, you play along and pursue it later in the court of law.
 

RightIsWrong

Diamond Member
Apr 29, 2005
5,649
0
0
Originally posted by: Specop 007
Originally posted by: RightIsWrong
Originally posted by: Specop 007
Originally posted by: RightIsWrong
Originally posted by: Specop 007
Good.

Yeah, who are we to think that the JUDICIAL branch should decide whether or not someone broke the law. Let's just let the lobbyists pad the legislative's pockets with campaign donations from corporations that no longer will have to worry about being held liable for their actions instead.

We can all sleep better that way. :roll:

How about we shift blame...Yeah thats always a good idea.

Rather then placing responsibility in this issue where it belongs (On the governments shoulders) lets allow them to be unaccountable for their actions and shift the blame to private business.

Fucking genius. Why didnt I think of that?

:disgust:

Where did I say that the government wasn't to be held responsible also? I want the entire Bush administration (at least those involved with this) impeached immediately (the same position I have held since this news first broke).

What you and Genx fail to understand is that no matter who asks you to break the law....YOU ARE STILL BREAKING THE LAW AND SHOULD BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE!

Ahhh, a frantic partisan hack. We dont have many of those around here......Per the article you posted.....

Ultimately, the Democrats caved in, agreeing that a district court judgewould be able to review the written authorizations provided to the companies bythe government to participate in the program.

So to be fair, you want everyone who supported this on the hook right, not just everyone from one party who supported it......

I don't give a flying fuck if you are (R), (D) or (M) (martian). They should all be held accountable.

You seem to forget or are just too consumed by your own partisan shit to realize that I probably have started as many threads on legitimate corruption from the (D)'s on this board as have many right leaning people.

But with your attitude, I wouldn't expect facts to matter when you have your incorrect opinion and conjecture to back it up with.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
83,718
47,407
136
Originally posted by: Specop 007
I'll put it this way.

If the telecomms were found responsible thats right where the buck would have stopped. They would have taken full responsibility for the wiretaps and the government would have walked away scott free.

THIS route almost ensures the government will be found responsible for any violations of our rights.

Now in the big picture who do we want held accountable?? The telecomms who just did what they were asked, or the government itself that requested and pursued the wiretaps?

Explain how the government will be found responsible for any violations of our rights. In fact, the exact OPPOSITE will happen now. No one will ever be found accountable because the lawsuits were the only vehicle the people had in order to compel disclosure of exactly what the government was doing. This shields the government as much as it does the telecoms.

 

Specop 007

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2005
9,454
0
0
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: Specop 007
THIS route almost ensures the government will be found responsible for any violations of our rights.

I very much doubt that. Kucinich tried to hold them responsible and the rest of the Democrats turned their nose at him.

Ahhhh, now we get the next little picture in the slideshow.

So the politicians already wont be held responsible.....So lets just hang out private business to dry. Is that it? We have to hold SOMEONE accountable.

Throw enough shit and see where it sticks eh? Thats a horrid way to go about legal proceedings in determination of rights violations. :disgust:
 

Specop 007

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2005
9,454
0
0
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: Specop 007
I'll put it this way.

If the telecomms were found responsible thats right where the buck would have stopped. They would have taken full responsibility for the wiretaps and the government would have walked away scott free.

THIS route almost ensures the government will be found responsible for any violations of our rights.

Now in the big picture who do we want held accountable?? The telecomms who just did what they were asked, or the government itself that requested and pursued the wiretaps?

Explain how the government will be found responsible for any violations of our rights. In fact, the exact OPPOSITE will happen now. No one will ever be found accountable because the lawsuits were the only vehicle the people had in order to compel disclosure of exactly what the government was doing. This shields the government as much as it does the telecoms.

Yep, I expected that from you.
"We have to blame SOMEONE, and we cant blame those people so lets get these!".

Who is at fault? You know what, there never would have been wiretaps if the .gov hadnt asked.....
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,030
2
61
Originally posted by: Specop 007
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: Specop 007
THIS route almost ensures the government will be found responsible for any violations of our rights.

I very much doubt that. Kucinich tried to hold them responsible and the rest of the Democrats turned their nose at him.

Ahhhh, now we get the next little picture in the slideshow.

So the politicians already wont be held responsible.....So lets just hang out private business to dry. Is that it? We have to hold SOMEONE accountable.

Throw enough shit and see where it sticks eh? Thats a horrid way to go about legal proceedings in determination of rights violations. :disgust:

Using the same logic, one could see your attitude as being that no one should be held responsible.

I think all who broke the law should be held responsible.
 

RightIsWrong

Diamond Member
Apr 29, 2005
5,649
0
0
Originally posted by: Specop 007
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: Specop 007
THIS route almost ensures the government will be found responsible for any violations of our rights.

I very much doubt that. Kucinich tried to hold them responsible and the rest of the Democrats turned their nose at him.

Ahhhh, now we get the next little picture in the slideshow.

So the politicians already wont be held responsible.....So lets just hang out private business to dry. Is that it? We have to hold SOMEONE accountable.

Throw enough shit and see where it sticks eh? Thats a horrid way to go about legal proceedings in determination of rights violations. :disgust:

Are you really this stupid?

In the course of discovery and disclosure, information that can be used against the government can be had. If there is no case against the corporations, there is no evidence against the government.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
83,718
47,407
136
Originally posted by: Specop 007

I wish I lived in a sheltered fairytale land like you.

You really have no idea how the government works do you? Well, like I said above, drive through a police checkpoint and you'll quickly learn.

Qwest refused the government and did just fine. How do you explain this? Sure they lost some government contracts because of it, but then again now they aren't on the hook for multi billion dollar lawsuits. Seems like they made a smart decision to me.

(Also the police checkpoint analogy is crap. Police checkpoints are valid exercises of police power upheld by challenges in the courts, this was a clearly and OBVIOUSLY illegal request by the government and the telecoms all knew it.)
 

Specop 007

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2005
9,454
0
0
Yep, 2 of our hardcore liberals want to hold private business responsible for the corruption of government.

Theres a fucking shock. This is my shocked face. Really. Right here.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
83,718
47,407
136
Originally posted by: Specop 007
Originally posted by: eskimospy

Explain how the government will be found responsible for any violations of our rights. In fact, the exact OPPOSITE will happen now. No one will ever be found accountable because the lawsuits were the only vehicle the people had in order to compel disclosure of exactly what the government was doing. This shields the government as much as it does the telecoms.

Yep, I expected that from you.
"We have to blame SOMEONE, and we cant blame those people so lets get these!".

Who is at fault? You know what, there never would have been wiretaps if the .gov hadnt asked.....

What the holy hell are you talking about? If two people break the law, you hold both of them accountable because they are both at fault. If I ask you to go kill someone for me and you do it, the cops shouldn't ignore what you did just because I was the one that asked you.

The telecom companies knowingly, purposefully, and repeatedly violated federal law in order to help the government illegally spy on American citizens. You want to ignore this because the government was the one that asked them to commit these thousands of felonies. To do that is a blatant disregard for the rule of law.
 

Robor

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
16,979
0
76
Originally posted by: Specop 007
Originally posted by: cliftonite
Originally posted by: Specop 007
Good.

How? You are adamant about your right to bear arms (with which I have no problem with) but ae willing to let other consitutional rights be trampled?

Absolutely not. I value each and every single Right we have.

HOWEVER. I do NOT think private business should be held accountable for questionable actions by our government. THAT is as great a travesty in my eyes as the government not recognizing our Rights.

Totally agree. Everyone is all up in arms over the telcos but as I understand the issue it was the government forcing their hand. If those at the top get a pass why shouldn't the telcos? It's like punishing the drug user while letting the cartel off free.
 

RightIsWrong

Diamond Member
Apr 29, 2005
5,649
0
0
Originally posted by: Specop 007
Yep, 2 of our hardcore liberals want to hold private business responsible for the corruption of government.

Theres a fucking shock. This is my shocked face. Really. Right here.

If being a liberal is quantified as holding people responsible for their actions whether they are the government, private business or an individual, I am very proud to be classified as one.

Now, what is your excuse for thinking that no one should be held accountable no matter their actions or laws that they violate? Can I stereotype all people with that mindset as "Conservatives" or should you just call you amoral idiots instead?
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
83,718
47,407
136
Originally posted by: Specop 007
Yep, 2 of our hardcore liberals want to hold private business responsible for the corruption of government.

Theres a fucking shock. This is my shocked face. Really. Right here.

Maybe you can explain why if the government asks someone to commit a crime it is no longer a crime. Don't try to say that they couldn't have refused either, as one telecom company did in fact refuse and they turned out just fine.
 

RightIsWrong

Diamond Member
Apr 29, 2005
5,649
0
0
Originally posted by: Robor
Originally posted by: Specop 007
Originally posted by: cliftonite
Originally posted by: Specop 007
Good.

How? You are adamant about your right to bear arms (with which I have no problem with) but ae willing to let other consitutional rights be trampled?

Absolutely not. I value each and every single Right we have.

HOWEVER. I do NOT think private business should be held accountable for questionable actions by our government. THAT is as great a travesty in my eyes as the government not recognizing our Rights.

Totally agree. Everyone is all up in arms over the telcos but as I understand the issue it was the government forcing their hand. If those at the top get a pass why shouldn't the telcos? It's like punishing the drug user while letting the cartel off free.

Apparently you two don't value each of your rights. Neither of you really care for this one:

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
 

Specop 007

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2005
9,454
0
0
Originally posted by: RightIsWrong
Originally posted by: Specop 007
Yep, 2 of our hardcore liberals want to hold private business responsible for the corruption of government.

Theres a fucking shock. This is my shocked face. Really. Right here.

If being a liberal is quantified as holding people responsible for their actions whether they are the government, private business or an individual, I am very proud to be classified as one.

Now, what is your excuse for thinking that no one should be held accountable no matter their actions or laws that they violate? Can I stereotype all people with that mindset as "Conservatives" or should you just call you amoral idiots instead?

You dont is the problem. Your a fucking liar and your posts in this thread prove it. How about this little gem...

I want the entire Bush administration (at least those involved with this) impeached immediately (the same position I have held since this news first broke).


Wait....Why dont you say "I want everyone involved in this"? I'll tell you why. A whole bunch of your partisan dicks that you suck would be right in the mix. Cant have your OWN party in trouble, lets just get the other guys who broke the law....

Uh huh. Thats all I need to know....Right IS wrong.
You dont give a shit about rights and you dont give a shit about justice. You, like many partisan hacks, care about getting the other guys in trouble. Fuck it if we take some innocents along for the ride, lets just GET THE OTHER SIDE.
 

Specop 007

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2005
9,454
0
0
Originally posted by: eskimospy
What the holy hell are you talking about? If two people break the law, you hold both of them accountable because they are both at fault. If I ask you to go kill someone for me and you do it, the cops shouldn't ignore what you did just because I was the one that asked you.

The telecom companies knowingly, purposefully, and repeatedly violated federal law in order to help the government illegally spy on American citizens. You want to ignore this because the government was the one that asked them to commit these thousands of felonies. To do that is a blatant disregard for the rule of law.

What if its the Chief of Police or the Mayor asking you to commit the crime......Things get a bit more complicated because if you dont you could be framed for doing it anyways!
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
83,718
47,407
136
Originally posted by: Specop 007
Originally posted by: RightIsWrong
Originally posted by: Specop 007
Yep, 2 of our hardcore liberals want to hold private business responsible for the corruption of government.

Theres a fucking shock. This is my shocked face. Really. Right here.

If being a liberal is quantified as holding people responsible for their actions whether they are the government, private business or an individual, I am very proud to be classified as one.

Now, what is your excuse for thinking that no one should be held accountable no matter their actions or laws that they violate? Can I stereotype all people with that mindset as "Conservatives" or should you just call you amoral idiots instead?

You dont is the problem. Your a fucking liar and your posts in this thread prove it. How about this little gem...

I want the entire Bush administration (at least those involved with this) impeached immediately (the same position I have held since this news first broke).


Wait....Why dont you say "I want everyone involved in this"? I'll tell you why. A whole bunch of your partisan dicks that you suck would be right in the mix. Cant have your OWN party in trouble, lets just get the other guys who broke the law....

Uh huh. Thats all I need to know....Right IS wrong.
You dont give a shit about rights and you dont give a shit about justice. You, like many partisan hacks, care about getting the other guys in trouble. Fuck it if we take some innocents along for the ride, lets just GET THE OTHER SIDE.

How the fuck are the telecoms innocent? For like the tenth time, they KNEW what they were doing was illegal and they did it anyway. One company refused, showing that it was possible for them to refuse, and the others went along with it.

Yes, anyone who conspired to eviscerate the 4th amendment should be removed from office no matter who it is. The lawsuits against the telecoms should rightly proceed, as they betrayed not only their duty to their customers, but repeatedly and purposefully committed thousands of felonies.