I'm torn :) Looking for a camcorder. HDV or AVCHD?

[francisA]

I'm in need of upgrading my video equipment soon. A little bit of background. I used to do event videography so I have in my inventory a couple of MiniDV cameras, JVC GY-DV500 and a Sony VX2000. The JVC was my main camera while the Sony was the fill. Also, been using Premiere Pro to edit {or more often than not Premiere 6.0 - it's easier for me } with the Canopus DVStorm.

So I have tons of footage on MiniDV tapes. I've also used the VX2000 as our family camcorder. But ........... it's getting very ackward now as it's big and the fact that I've stopped doing event videography.

Fast-forward. I'll be selling the JVC and other equipment to cover the costs for a new HDV or AVCHD camcorder for home video use. Keeping the VX2000 just in case I get the SD-card camcorder. Am currently looking at either the HV30 or HF10/100

My dilemna is:
I think, and based on what I've read here and elsewhere, the AVCHD is of course the future so in terms of practicality, the HF10/100 is the way to go. But, I will be stuck with MiniDV tapes that I cannot read without a MiniDV player.

Or get the HV30 so I can use it for both my purposes and still be able to playback my old footage. I'm not sure {or anyone else for that mater} of the longevity of the tape-based camcorders, in terms of the market. Will tape-based systems be obsolete in the next 2 years and that tape prices will go sky high due to lower demands?

I tend to keep equipment for years, 5 or more maybe so that's part of where I'm coming from. And I'm married ------ {married folks know what I'm talking about}

I've built a new PC {in sig} which I think, or hope, can handle HDV and/or AVCHD. So hopefully I've taken that out of the equation.

Looking for thoughts from fellow enthusiasts. Good to get feedback from those who had the same dilemna as mine.

 

[Kaido]

AVCHD is more of a recording format, than an editing format. i.e. it will struggle even on your 4ghz quad computer. What you need is to convert AVCHD to an editable format, such as ProRes. I use VoltaicHD for that, it's a little $35 converter app that works on both PC and Mac. So think of AVCHD as tape - you still have to import & convert it, but instead of 1:1 transfer it's drag and drop, THEN convert to a usable format.

The HV30 (well, HV40 now) has better picture quality than the AVCHD camcorders (not to mention LOTS of mods!), but you have to import tapes 1:1 over Firewire and you get tape noise pickup on the internal mic. As far as longevity, MiniDV will be around for at least the next 5 years. Stuff like RED and other pure-digital camcorders are just beginning to emerge; the technology won't be perfected for quite some time, so you're fine with a MiniDV camcorder. I've seen HV30's as low as $530 now that the HV40 is out, which is an absolutely unbelievable price for this outstanding camera. I have the HV20, an older model, and it's phenomenal!

As far as the married part, yes I hear you :laugh: My recommendation is buy ALL of your parts at once - do your research, then do a bulk buy, otherwise it's "honey, why do you have boxes coming in every other week for your camera?" LOL

One option is to go Mac. In your case, Hackintosh. Your board is super compatible with Leoard; the only thing you'd need to change is your Video Card (4000-series is not supported yet) and drop any IDE drives you have. This way you could go with iMovie 09 or Final Cut Pro, both of which are excellent video editors. If you want to stick with Windows, Sony Vegas is great. But I'm sure you know all about software having had a camcorder in the past, so I won't beat a dead horse

As far as AVCHD camcorders go, Canon is refreshing it's line in February. If you want to go digital, I'd wait a month and read reviews of the new camcorders. There's the HF200 on the low end (replacement to the HF100, which despite being on the "low end" of the product spectrum, still gives amazing footage) and the HF-S100/S10 on the high-end. If you have the bucks to burn, I'd probably go with an HF-S100 based on specs, but again wait for some reviews to see how the footage turns out.

I'll be releasing my 2009 Camcorder Guide after the Canon refresh, so if you want to wait a few weeks, I'll have a lot of info packed into it

 

[francisA]

Kaido, thank you very much for the very detailed and extremely helpful response. I've been reading up on your posts and have been trying to absorb all I can in order to make the more educated purchase decision.

HV30:
The tape mechanism hum never really bothered me on any of my miniDV camcorders, neither were my customers then. So that's something I really won't have any issues with. Having hundreds upon hundreds of miniDV footage is what makes me lean towards this camcorder. Plus, your reviews on HV20 and HV30 makes it the best in its class. Also, since I use Premiere Pro 1.5.1 that has HDV support via Mainconcept, I believe, will make it economical for me.

HF10/HF100:
I'm considering this more for its convenience factor. No tapes to buy and carry around. As you said, simple drag and drop but of course still need to archive the raw footage to either HDD or DVDs. Gotcha on AVCHD being a recording format, similar to MPEG2 where editing it will require massive amounts of cpu ooomph. So I suppose VoltaicHD converts it to AVI which I can them import into Premiere. Plus of course, the Vixia HF10/100 is new technology. Downside though, I need to purchase a cheap but reliable miniDV camcorder so I can play my archives.

As for the Mac, I've been thinking about that for a long time for Final Cut Pro but decided against it then as I wanted a mix use rig so I ended up with XP. Maybe when I get more time, I'll get into Hackintosh and Leopard and double boot into XP. But will wait until drivers are available for the 48xx series.

March for refresh? Not sure if I'll be able to wait Family is going on a cruise vacation end of February so I'm hoping to buy one soon. But not until I've sold my GY-DV500. Wife directives - "no new camcorder unless you sell the old one." sigh.

The HF-S100 specs look good though

A 2009 Camcorder Guide? Do you have one for 2008? I'd like to read through it as I think you really know what you're talking about. I've been out of the loop for years now so haven't been up-to-date with the latest and greatest.

 

[Kaido]

This will be my first year doing a Camcorder guide. Enough people have asked for help that I decided to put one together. Although now I'm thinking of making it a Wiki, easier to edit! As soon as the new camcorders come out and are reviewed, I'll post the guide with my recommendations. I'm not a camcorder guru or anything, I just happen to own one and know a bit about messing with them

The HF-S100 specs look totally awesome, but so far the footage I have seen is not impressive. I need to read some in-depth reviews first. This is essentially the second generation of AVCHD cams, so either it will be really awesome, or it will be mediocre (which for most people is still more than awesome, but since you understand tapes you know what I mean!). The only thing the HV40 adds to the HV30 tape line is native 24p, but it's a simple checkbox to do reverse telecine to convert to 24p, so I don't see what the big deal is. You have to convert from tape format anyway, it's not any harder to make a preset where it applies the telecine voodoo to take the 24p out of the 60i wrapper. From the sound of it, you would probably really enjoy an HV30. Under $600 at most places. I wouldn't bother going with the HV40 unless you find a really killer deal on it. I've seen the HV30 for as low as $529 recently. Most people use a Rode VideoMic ($150) to offset the tape noise and just to get better audio. So for you, a basic kit would be:

1. Canon HV30 ($600)
2. Tiffen Filter Kit ($45) * includes a Polarizer filter, for reflections, and a UV filter, for general protection; at minimum I'd recommend the UV Filter for $8 to protect your lens 24/7
3. MiniDV tapes (whatever you want)
4. Padded MiniDV bag (whatever you want)
5. Spare batteries (I like the eBay knockoffs that include a standalone charger and car charger for around $20, get a couple if your budget allows)
6. Rode VideoMic ($150)
7. Tripod (whatever you want, a Velbon DV-7000 or Gorillapod are great options)
8. Kodak Lens Paper or Microfiber cloth (to clean the lens from contaminants)
9. Headphones (I use some cheap around-the-head jogger headphones, plus some closed Sennheiser HD280s)
10. Hoodman H300 (shade box for the LCD preview screen to use outdoors; I have the mangifying version for $30, which works nicely)
11. Irvb's manual focus ring (hobbyst-made part, $38 when in stock)

I'm sure you already have a lot of stuff from your previous camera that you can probably recycle onto your new one. But basically you get get a real nice setup for around $1,000 (camera, good external mic, accessories) and get fabulous picture quality. I just love my HV20 to pieces!

 

[sswingle]

I've used an AVCHD cam before, and ended up converting the footage to HDV to do the edit.

 

[Kaido]

Originally posted by: sswingle
I've used an AVCHD cam before, and ended up converting the footage to HDV to do the edit.

:thumbsup:

Standard AVCHD Workflow:
1. Import (optional, just drag-and-drop from card; otherwise convert from the card to the hard drive)
2. Transcode (from AVCHD to an editable format)
3. Edit (use your favorite video editor & plugins)
4. Output (to web, DVD, file, etc.)

The main advantage here is that you don't have to import 1:1 like tape and suck up your computer's resources. While your AVCHD files are transcoding, you can still surf the net and whatnot, but when you're importing from tape you really want to just leave it alone while it does that. So it's much quicker and nicer to do it digitally

 

[sswingle]

Originally posted by: Kaido

Originally posted by: sswingle
I've used an AVCHD cam before, and ended up converting the footage to HDV to do the edit.

:thumbsup:

Standard AVCHD Workflow:
1. Import (optional, just drag-and-drop from card; otherwise convert from the card to the hard drive)
2. Transcode (from AVCHD to an editable format)
3. Edit (use your favorite video editor & plugins)
4. Output (to web, DVD, file, etc.)

The main advantage here is that you don't have to import 1:1 like tape and suck up your computer's resources. While your AVCHD files are transcoding, you can still surf the net and whatnot, but when you're importing from tape you really want to just leave it alone while it does that. So it's much quicker and nicer to do it digitally

Depends. I surf the web while capturing miniDV with no problems, and the AVCHD to HDV convert (on a Q6600) took about as long as the video was.

 

[randomlinh]

wow, the HFS100 does look good. I've been debating getting a new camera, but the only real reason is I want HD/widescreen. not compelling enough to get rid of my old panasonic GS120 (i think that's it). ugh, I remember paying $600 for it back when... alternatively, if the HV30 drops to ~$450, I'd jump on that, heh.

 

[Kaido]

Originally posted by: sswingle
Depends. I surf the web while capturing miniDV with no problems, and the AVCHD to HDV convert (on a Q6600) took about as long as the video was.

Hmm, interesting. What do you use to convert? And what are you using to capture MiniDV with?

 

[Kaido]

Originally posted by: randomlinh
wow, the HFS100 does look good. I've been debating getting a new camera, but the only real reason is I want HD/widescreen. not compelling enough to get rid of my old panasonic GS120 (i think that's it). ugh, I remember paying $600 for it back when... alternatively, if the HV30 drops to ~$450, I'd jump on that, heh.

There's also the Vado HD for $230...720p with a built-in wide angle lens. Not as powerful as the HF-S100, but a nice little pocket cam for everyday recording :thumbsup:

 

[francisA]

Great info here.

Just one thing that crossed my mind. If I'm not mistaken, AVCHD captures at 1920x1080 while HDV captures at 1440x1080.
I have a 42" plasma. Would the difference in resolution be really discernable? I would think not but would like to hear your thoughts on this too.

Coming from miniDV @ 720x480, I think I'll be happy with the increase in resolution but if 1920 is better than 1440 in the end product, then that might be another consideration.

Thanks again.

 

[sswingle]

Originally posted by: Kaido

Originally posted by: sswingle
Depends. I surf the web while capturing miniDV with no problems, and the AVCHD to HDV convert (on a Q6600) took about as long as the video was.

Hmm, interesting. What do you use to convert? And what are you using to capture MiniDV with?

To capture, I use Premiere Pro CS4 (CS2 and CS3 worked the same though)
To convert the AVCHD, I have been using TMPGEnc.

 

[Kaido]

Originally posted by: francisA
Great info here.

Just one thing that crossed my mind. If I'm not mistaken, AVCHD captures at 1920x1080 while HDV captures at 1440x1080.
I have a 42" plasma. Would the difference in resolution be really discernable? I would think not but would like to hear your thoughts on this too.

Coming from miniDV @ 720x480, I think I'll be happy with the increase in resolution but if 1920 is better than 1440 in the end product, then that might be another consideration.

Thanks again.

HDV captures at 1440x1080 but converts it to 1920x1080. Stretches it or something so it looks normal at 1080p, not stretched. I usually output at 720p though, because then I can crop the image and also use stuff like a Steadicam filter, which reduces shake but also reduces resolution as a side-effect.

 

[Kaido]

Originally posted by: sswingle

Originally posted by: Kaido

Originally posted by: sswingle
Depends. I surf the web while capturing miniDV with no problems, and the AVCHD to HDV convert (on a Q6600) took about as long as the video was.

Hmm, interesting. What do you use to convert? And what are you using to capture MiniDV with?

To capture, I use Premiere Pro CS4 (CS2 and CS3 worked the same though)
To convert the AVCHD, I have been using TMPGEnc.

I've heard good things about TMPGEnc. As far as Firewire capture goes, I don't trust my system to record it properly without dropping frames and stuff if I do anything else on the computer. Maybe I should give it a try again though, haha. I really want a QuickstreamHDV unit, which is a portable Firewire recorder (to get rid of tapes), but at $799 starting I might as well wait for them to release a good AVCHD camera with tape-equivalent quality.

 

[randomlinh]

Originally posted by: Kaido

Originally posted by: randomlinh
wow, the HFS100 does look good. I've been debating getting a new camera, but the only real reason is I want HD/widescreen. not compelling enough to get rid of my old panasonic GS120 (i think that's it). ugh, I remember paying $600 for it back when... alternatively, if the HV30 drops to ~$450, I'd jump on that, heh.

There's also the Vado HD for $230...720p with a built-in wide angle lens. Not as powerful as the HF-S100, but a nice little pocket cam for everyday recording :thumbsup:

heh, I've considered it actually (at the time, the flip HD or whatever it was). but at $200, it's close to a digital camera that can do 720p, and it'll have IS. that was my gripe w/ the video from the pocket HD cams. then.. the price of the camera is close to the LX3 I wanted anyway... and then that's close to the camcorder.... haha.

i will likely just get the rode mic to play with, heh

 

[jdwright]

Thought I'd throw in my 2 cents.

A couple months ago, I bought the HV30 and Rode SVM for recording classroom activities for myself and other teachers. It is an interesting environment to capture. My experience has been that the video is excellent and the mic sounds great.

For example, when set to about the normal record volume in the camera, if I have the internal mic on, the tape noise/heating/computers (normal quiet in my classroom) sits at about 30% on the camera meter. When I plug in the Rode, it drops to about 10%. Some things that I have noted are that the mic has a decent range and records sound all the way across my classroom when in normal mode. However, in this mode, you do get some tape noise - not excessive, but it's there.

When I switch into -10 mode on the mic it almost completely eliminates the tape noise, but the volume is so low and range of the mic decreased, that I don't think it would be good for much beyond 4-6 feet or so. Even with the camera record volume bumped way up.

As for pulling video off the camera, I don't mind the capture time and it provides an instant archive. I also didn't have to upgrade my Premiere Pro 2.0 to capture from this camera with the Canon capture settings from their site.

Just some thoughts that I thought I'd share =)

J

 

[Kaido]

Originally posted by: jdwright
Thought I'd throw in my 2 cents.

A couple months ago, I bought the HV30 and Rode SVM for recording classroom activities for myself and other teachers. It is an interesting environment to capture. My experience has been that the video is excellent and the mic sounds great.

For example, when set to about the normal record volume in the camera, if I have the internal mic on, the tape noise/heating/computers (normal quiet in my classroom) sits at about 30% on the camera meter. When I plug in the Rode, it drops to about 10%. Some things that I have noted are that the mic has a decent range and records sound all the way across my classroom when in normal mode. However, in this mode, you do get some tape noise - not excessive, but it's there.

When I switch into -10 mode on the mic it almost completely eliminates the tape noise, but the volume is so low and range of the mic decreased, that I don't think it would be good for much beyond 4-6 feet or so. Even with the camera record volume bumped way up.

As for pulling video off the camera, I don't mind the capture time and it provides an instant archive. I also didn't have to upgrade my Premiere Pro 2.0 to capture from this camera with the Canon capture settings from their site.

Just some thoughts that I thought I'd share =)

J

You might try the Rode extension cable (a 10' cable). I have one and it lets you position the mic further away. Of course, this makes the signal more suspectible to noise, so turn off your GSM phone (it records GSM buzz from my iPhone). I have my Rode VideoMic mounted on a Joby Gorillapod with a shoe adapter so that I can pretty much mount it anywhere. One other thing that helps is a dead cat, the fuzzy mic covering to kill wind noise outdoors. I pretty much leave mine on all the time, helps cut out fan noise and stuff.

 

[supaidaaman]

I have an older HV20, and i freaking love it. I'd say the workflow for the fake 24p stuff is a true pain in the butt...but! ive seen some really great footage with this camera. Im pretty sure the newer revisions (hv30) have a fix so that programs like premiere can catch cadence of the 24p pulldown.

I have mine paired up with a brevis35 (with canon FD lens adapter) (www.cinevate.com)

A-mazing adapter!

Here is some sample youtube footage I captured a few weeks ago. 3 minutes of my cat HV20 + Brevis35

 

[Kaido]

Originally posted by: supaidaaman
I have an older HV20, and i freaking love it. I'd say the workflow for the fake 24p stuff is a true pain in the butt...but! ive seen some really great footage with this camera. Im pretty sure the newer revisions (hv30) have a fix so that programs like premiere can catch cadence of the 24p pulldown.

I have mine paired up with a brevis35 (with canon FD lens adapter) (www.cinevate.com)

A-mazing adapter!

Here is some sample youtube footage I captured a few weeks ago. 3 minutes of my cat HV20 + Brevis35

Man I am SO jealous I'm saving up for a Brevis35 this year, that's up next on my wishlist! haha

 

[randomlinh]

isn't there a homemade type EF adapter you can build? I can't remember the name of it for the life of me though.. I reallly considered getting an HV20/30 just to do all that, but realized I don't think I could manage MF on these things, heh

 

[Kaido]

Originally posted by: randomlinh
isn't there a homemade type EF adapter you can build? I can't remember the name of it for the life of me though.. I reallly considered getting an HV20/30 just to do all that, but realized I don't think I could manage MF on these things, heh

Yeah but the picture quality isn't "perfect" like the Brevis35 is. The Brevis35 is the best 35mm adapter on the market, followed by Redrock and Letus. From there, there are homebrew solutions for-sale, then DIY homebrew solutions. There is a BIG difference in quality between them - they all give the same effect, but with different "consequences" to your picture, such as more light loss, vigenetting, dust (if it's a non-vibrating adapter), wobbly picture, etc.

Cinevate, the makers of the Brevis35, also have a whole bunch of other killer products now, including a dolly, a slider rig, a cage, a follow focus, rails, and a mattebox system. If I had $10 or $15k to drop, it'd all go into Cinevate equipment with a set of their Zeiss prime lenses

 

[gsellis]

OP, I really would stick with the tape format. You have done enough editing now to know that you have to get rid of the projects eventually to make room. You are probably using an advanced editor that has EDL or some other decision list format that you can just pop the volumes back in and recreate a project. With AVCHD, you need to keep that storage somewhere... And if you editor is a year old, you probably have to do intermediary formats to get AVCHD into your editor.

BTW, a lot of the video nerds are over at dvinfo.net too. Different set than here though.

Have fun with the Brevis when you get it Kaido. Some of the original stuff shot on the HV20's was great. But next you be lusting for Scarlett.

 

[Kaido]

Originally posted by: gsellis
Have fun with the Brevis when you get it Kaido. Some of the original stuff shot on the HV20's was great. But next you be lusting for Scarlett.

Yeah I'm torn on that...the Brevis35 is next on the wishlist, followed by a Tiffin Steadicam, but the Scarlet is out soon-ish, so I don't know if either is worth getting if I'm just going to do a Scarlet and have different weight & size requirements. And of course, that's the other issue - it's all digital storage, so you don't have tapes to fall back on for archiving. Then again 2TB hard drives are $299...

 

[randomlinh]

Originally posted by: Kaido

Originally posted by: randomlinh
isn't there a homemade type EF adapter you can build? I can't remember the name of it for the life of me though.. I reallly considered getting an HV20/30 just to do all that, but realized I don't think I could manage MF on these things, heh

Yeah but the picture quality isn't "perfect" like the Brevis35 is. The Brevis35 is the best 35mm adapter on the market, followed by Redrock and Letus. From there, there are homebrew solutions for-sale, then DIY homebrew solutions. There is a BIG difference in quality between them - they all give the same effect, but with different "consequences" to your picture, such as more light loss, vigenetting, dust (if it's a non-vibrating adapter), wobbly picture, etc.

Cinevate, the makers of the Brevis35, also have a whole bunch of other killer products now, including a dolly, a slider rig, a cage, a follow focus, rails, and a mattebox system. If I had $10 or $15k to drop, it'd all go into Cinevate equipment with a set of their Zeiss prime lenses

yeah, but those "others" cost a whole lot less, heh. I was hoping the entry RED Scarlet would be cheaper, but oh well. Nothing I can't live w/o for a while until I figure out what I want to do, hahaa

 

[Kaido]

Originally posted by: randomlinh

Originally posted by: Kaido

Originally posted by: randomlinh
isn't there a homemade type EF adapter you can build? I can't remember the name of it for the life of me though.. I reallly considered getting an HV20/30 just to do all that, but realized I don't think I could manage MF on these things, heh

Yeah but the picture quality isn't "perfect" like the Brevis35 is. The Brevis35 is the best 35mm adapter on the market, followed by Redrock and Letus. From there, there are homebrew solutions for-sale, then DIY homebrew solutions. There is a BIG difference in quality between them - they all give the same effect, but with different "consequences" to your picture, such as more light loss, vigenetting, dust (if it's a non-vibrating adapter), wobbly picture, etc.

Cinevate, the makers of the Brevis35, also have a whole bunch of other killer products now, including a dolly, a slider rig, a cage, a follow focus, rails, and a mattebox system. If I had $10 or $15k to drop, it'd all go into Cinevate equipment with a set of their Zeiss prime lenses

yeah, but those "others" cost a whole lot less, heh. I was hoping the entry RED Scarlet would be cheaper, but oh well. Nothing I can't live w/o for a while until I figure out what I want to do, hahaa

Yeah but the whole point is picture quality. Why spend $300 on something that gives you dark edges, dust spots, and a low-lit picture instead of just saving up for the good stuff? I figure, if I'm going to do that, might as well take the extra step and get a Scarlet lol.

I think the Scarlet is really aimed at the indie crowd, not the advanced hobbyist crowd. It's a real film tool, not just a really nice prosumer camera. The price reflects that unfortunately