I'm thinking about inventing something...

SickBeast

Lifer
Jul 21, 2000
14,377
19
81
Hey guys,

I've thought about inventing stuff for quite some time. I'm trained as an architect, and have a fair bit of training in industrial design as well. I have a great idea for a relatively simple invention. Let's just say that it's about as complex as a can opener, and would require a small motor and batteries to produce a vibrating effect (nothing perverted I swear!).

Any idea as to how hard it would be to invent something like this and have it manufactured? What would I require in terms of drawings/specs in order for the thing to be built? I'm guessing that step one is to build a prototype...

Any input would be great! Thanks! :)
 

Stretchman

Golden Member
Aug 27, 2005
1,065
0
0
If you can dream it, you can do it. You've got my full support - good luck!:thumbsup:
 

MrDudeMan

Lifer
Jan 15, 2001
15,069
94
91
i may be wrong but im pretty sure it is really expensive to get a patent.

edit: Text

from the article, about half way down...

Relatively simple invention - $3,000 to $5,000

Invention of minimal complexity - $5,000 - $10,000

Invention of moderate complexity - $10,000 - $15,000

Invention of intermediate complexity - $15,000 - $20,000

Relatively complex invention - $20,000 and up
 

SickBeast

Lifer
Jul 21, 2000
14,377
19
81
Thanks guys.

That's a crazy expensive patent fee. I guess I would have to patent it too. Shame.

That said, I don't know if anything I'll be doing will require one; I'll be using exisiting technologies.
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
1
81
I believe combining existing technologies to create a new product is still patentable. Best approach: build a prototype, see how it works. Rinse and repeat until you have what you consider a marketable product. Once you reach this stage, I'd go for a patent. Doing so before you have the bugs worked out gives others access to your ideas so that they can hurry up, fix it, then patent the final, superior product themselves.
 

SickBeast

Lifer
Jul 21, 2000
14,377
19
81
Originally posted by: CycloWizard
I believe combining existing technologies to create a new product is still patentable. Best approach: build a prototype, see how it works. Rinse and repeat until you have what you consider a marketable product. Once you reach this stage, I'd go for a patent. Doing so before you have the bugs worked out gives others access to your ideas so that they can hurry up, fix it, then patent the final, superior product themselves.

Thanks for the info. :)

Hey didn't the mods ban you way back? They've re-instated you? If you're not the same guy from P&N, my apologies.
 

patentman

Golden Member
Apr 8, 2005
1,035
1
0
Sickbeast, if you want to talk about patent law send me a PM. I worked as a patent examiner at the USPTO for over three years before I decided to go to law school. I currently work as a law clerk in a DC based patent/intellectual property firm, which means I do everything the attorneys do, I just don;t get paid as much and I don;t sign anything myself.

Below is a general overview of what is required for something to be patentble. This should be considered as a bare bones introduction to the subject. Patent Lawyers aren't the highest paid attorneys in the U.S. because this area of the law is simple.

Requirements for Patentability:

1) 35 U.S.C. 101 states, "Whoever invents or discovers any new and useful process, machine, manufacture, or composition of matter, or any new and useful improvement thereof, may obtain a patent therefor, subject to the conditions and requirements of this title." Thus, your invention has to be "new," "useful" (which is interpreted very broadly), and must arguably fit into one of the categories specified. In general "anything under the sun that is touched by the hand of man" is considered by the courts to be eligible for patenting. Notable exceptions include natural laws and mathematical formulas, these are unpatentble in and of themselves.

2. In addition to #1 above, 35 U.S.C. 102 requires the invention to be "novel" and to have been invented by the applicant (inventorship disputes happen more oftent then you would imagine). What does it mean for something to be novel? Well basically it has to be different in some respect from the technology that was available at the time the invention was made (this technology and the references disclosing it is called "prior art" in the patent community). I.e. A baseball having a plastic cover is novel when compared to a baseball having a leather cover. See my description of the patent examination process below.

3. In addition to #'s 1 and 2 above, 35 U.S.C. 103 requires the invention to be non-obvious. What does it mean for something to be non-obvious? Well, there are a lot of considerations that come into play, but the basic premise can be summed up in the idea that one of ordainry skill in the art at the time the invention was made, looking at the references in the prior art, would not have been motivated to do what the inventor has done. This area of the law is pretty detailed and complicated, but I think my discussion of the examination process below will help you understand.

4. Ok, how do you "get" a patent. Well, you have to file a patent application with the USPTO and pay some fees to have it "examined" by a patent Examiner. The application basically consists of a brief discussion of the background of the invention, a summary description of the invention, a detailed description of the invention, drawings (if necessary) detailing the invention, and claims. OF all of these things, the claims are the most important, as they determine what the "scope" of the patent will be. Anything can be patented if you make the claims narrow enough, but if the claims are too narrow, the patent will not be woth the paper it is printed on, because nobody will infringe it. As for the actual mechanics of filing etc. read this. I highly recommend getting an attorney to help you. While you can certainly file and get a patent yourself, an attorney will help greatly in making sure that the patent will have some value. There are a lot of legal twists that are counterintuitive in this area of the law, and its easy to screw yourself if you don't know what you are doing.

5. THINGS YOU SHOULD NOT DO IF YOU WANT TO PATENT SOMETHING: I put this section in caps because it is probably the most important. There are a few things you should be aware of if you want to patent something. Under 35 U.S.C. 102, if a reference discloses a claimed invention and is publicly used or printed in a reference more then one year prior to the filing date of the application, this is an absolute bar to patentability. It doesn't matter if the reference is your own or if you were the one doing the public use, this bar will still apply. Rule of thumb is if you publish, present your invention at a conference, or disclose it to a bunch of people in an auncontrolled setting (i.e. a paty) make sure to file within one year of that disclosure. Otherwise you are throwing your money out the window.

6. Examination: Once an applciation is filed with the USPTO, it will sit for a couple years (the backlog of apps at the PTO is phenomenal), and then an Examiner will take a look at it. The Examiner will check to see if the applicaiton meets the requisite formal requirements, and will compare the claimerd invention to the prior art. Examiner's have a search tool called EAST (examiner's automated search tool) which is like google on crack. It is, by far, the most powerful boolean based search tool I have ever seen. Using this search tool, the Examiner can text search every US Patent that has issued since the early 1900's (might be earlier now, they've been OCR"ing a lot of the old stuff in). IN addition, the Examiner can search foreign patent documents and derwent abstracts. The Examiner will also searchrelavent scientific (or not so scientific) publications.

The goal of this search is to locate prior art that either anticipates or renders obvious the claimed invention. To anticipate the claimed invention (under 35 U.S.C. 102) the prior art reference must disclose all of the elements of the claimed invention. This does not mean the prior art and the claimed invention are "the same" (though this occurs occasionally), just that the elements of the inve tion that are claimed are disclosed.

If the search does not locate an anticipatory reference, the Examiner may combine two or more references in an effort to establish that the claimed invention is obvious. I.E., say you claim you invention as "comprising" elements XYZ. Prior art reference 1 teaches elements X and Y, but not Z. Prior art reference 2 teches element Z and some beneficial aspects of that element. The Examiner may assert that it would have been obvious to one of ordinary skill in the art at the time the invention was made to add element Z from reference 2 to reference 1, in order to obtain the advantages disclosed by reference 2. There are a number of issues that arise in this analysis, but I will leave those for a later discussion, if anyone is interested.

I'm happy to discuss the US Patent System with anyone who is interested. JKust send me a PM or reply to this thread and I'll try to answer when I get a chance. Law sschool+work= a very busy life.
 

patentman

Golden Member
Apr 8, 2005
1,035
1
0
Oh, as a small inventor, the filing fee for an application is $395. That lets you file up to 20 claims + the other relavent parts. If you are part of a larger business, the filing fee is double. There is an examination fee as well, but its only a couple hundred bucks for a small entity I think.

The expensive part comes with attorney fees for drafting, prosecuting, and litigating the case.
 

sao123

Lifer
May 27, 2002
12,653
205
106
patent it first. sell it to large company for royalty fees on all products they sell.
let them do the rest.
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
1
81
Originally posted by: SickBeast
Thanks for the info. :)

Hey didn't the mods ban you way back? They've re-instated you? If you're not the same guy from P&N, my apologies.
Yes, I am the same guy from P&N, no I didn't get banned. I just exiled myself. :p The level of intelligence in that forum was hurting my brain.
 

xxXXDeathXXxx

Junior Member
Jun 26, 2005
10
0
0
You don't NEED a patent to sell your inventions. Just make sure you have your prior art well/legally documented. It can be helpful to have a patent if you think others will try to cash in on your idea which they most likely will if you are cashing in on it. Patents are expensive and are no guarantee that an product will sell well. It takes a judgment call on the part of whoever is funding the inventor whether or not to pursue a patent on each invention. Obviously there are times when patents turn out to be golden geese which makes the upfront expense worth while. One never knows for sure.
 

SickBeast

Lifer
Jul 21, 2000
14,377
19
81
Originally posted by: xxXXDeathXXxx
You don't NEED a patent to sell your inventions. Just make sure you have your prior art well/legally documented. It can be helpful to have a patent if you think others will try to cash in on your idea which they most likely will if you are cashing in on it. Patents are expensive and are no guarantee that an product will sell well. It takes a judgment call on the part of whoever is funding the inventor whether or not to pursue a patent on each invention. Obviously there are times when patents turn out to be golden geese which makes the upfront expense worth while. One never knows for sure.

Well I'm pretty sure that you can say "patent pending" and you have a 1-year grace period to get a patent taken care of, so that might be the way to go.

Honestly, chances are this thing won't sell, but I think it's a great idea and might just work out. I'm thinking I'll build a prototype when I get the time. Thanks everyone for their help. :thumbsup:
 

patentman

Golden Member
Apr 8, 2005
1,035
1
0
word of advice, file a provisional application soon. Its cheap and preserves your filing date.
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
1
81
Originally posted by: SickBeast
Well I'm pretty sure that you can say "patent pending" and you have a 1-year grace period to get a patent taken care of, so that might be the way to go.

Honestly, chances are this thing won't sell, but I think it's a great idea and might just work out. I'm thinking I'll build a prototype when I get the time. Thanks everyone for their help. :thumbsup:
Yeah, the patent is pending if you've filed a provisional patent application, as patentman mentioned. Make sure you do this before you disclose the invention, or the patent can be invalidated.
 

patentman

Golden Member
Apr 8, 2005
1,035
1
0
you don;t have to have a patent appliication or provisional app in the office to put patent pending on your product. You can mark your product before filing, but if you don;t file within one year of putting it up for sale/disclsing it etc.. then your marking will be worthless. A provisional app is the safe way to go here.
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
1
81
Originally posted by: patentman
you don;t have to have a patent appliication or provisional app in the office to put patent pending on your product. You can mark your product before filing, but if you don;t file within one year of putting it up for sale/disclsing it etc.. then your marking will be worthless. A provisional app is the safe way to go here.
Ah, thanks for clarifying. I need to take a patent class eventually, just have to get all these other pesky classes out of the way first.
 

Titan

Golden Member
Oct 15, 1999
1,819
0
0
Hey patentman, this question popped into my head last night:

Can you patent a martial arts technique? It would seem to be an original process, although the language would have to describe a lot. Diagrams and tables would have to show body positioning, weight distibution and transition from one part of the move to the next. It is something that definitely seems non-obvious, and patenting it would make people owe you money if they put your flying twister kick of death into one of their movies.

Any precedents?
 

patentman

Golden Member
Apr 8, 2005
1,035
1
0
Originally posted by: tkotitan2
Hey patentman[...] Can you patent a martial arts technique?

An excellent question with a difficult answer. There are lots of law review articles out there that have written about this, but I think the short answer is that the USPTO might issue a patent covering a martial arts technique, but the courts might have trouble finding that it is enforceable.

The PTO has issued a number of patents on sports techniques. I.e. U.S. Patent Nos. 6,019,689; and 5,616,089 are patents on methods of putting a golf ball.

However, from a public policy standpoint, patents on sports techniques are generally disfavored in the U.S. and around the world. Indeed, European patent law forbids patents on methods for playing games. As you can see from the examples above, the U.S. has not forbid patents on these techniques, they are just generally disfavored. There are lots of issues surrounding sports related patents. For example, some people think that if sports methods are allowed to be patented, the sport will change its rules to get around it, and over time the sport will cease to exist because its changed so much to avoid patented techniques.

An argument can also be made that martial arts forms and other "skill based" activities do not require patent protection to maintain their value. This is because these skills are not easily reproduced and marketed on a wide scale. Even if someone watches your technique hundreds of times, they may not be able to decipher how it truly works, because they may not pick up on the mental component of the technique. Even if they do, they will have a difficult time passing that on to anyone on a grand scale, and so you are less likely to be affected economically if someone appropriates your technique.

This is unlike most products and methods that are given patent protection. As you may know, patent protection is given to promote the progress of science and the useful arts by securing to inventors and authors for limited time the rights to their creations. Most methods and products require substantial investotment in terms of time/money, but are easily copied once they are discovered. Thus, patent protection is necessary to give individuals an incentive to pursue these types of inventions. If patent protection didn;t exist, a lot of things (i.e. computers etc.) would likely not have been created because the businesses that invented them would not have been able to recoup their investment in their development. This is because the minute something like that is created, if its not protected, then everyone under the sun will copy it and flood the market. Thus, you can;t make back what you invested to come up with the invention, while others reap the profits of your work for nothing. Patent Protection prevents this from occurring.