Craig: Moonbeam, my comment was primarily about the second of his two statements. I probably should have been clear about that.
I don't think his first point is idiocy; there's *some* truth to it.
If you would care to defend his second claim as better than I said, I'll listen.I don't use such a curt, negative statement as I did in my post lightly.
I did. I said, "The America lovers look at what is good about America and hate those who run it down and the people they are criticizing see and hate what is wrong with America. They don't have Love America Blinders on. Each protects America, one from insult, and the other from rot."
I then went on to say why: "The human mind is diseased. It has to compare If I am different than you I will see you as bad. I am good and you are different. It compares because that is how we got the disease, being compared as worthless next to others as children."
C: Indeed, my most frequest responses of lengthy commentary are in part intended to make a response such as this one all the more pointed in contrast.
In my view, we have a serious problem with huge numbers of voters who are really simply deficient in the fundamentals of the rational thinking needed not to be a menace.
M: In deed we do. I said what I said because I think name calling is ineffectual in doing anything about it, not that I don't do the same.
C: I understand the preference for 'civilized debate', to pretend that everyone is either a Lincoln or a Douglas, but it seems to me that's a luxury at odds with the facts today, and it actually gets in the way of recognizing the actual problem, that what's needed is not Lincoln and Douglas trying to figure out whether Obama really was calling Palin a pig, or whether John Kerry really did exaggerate how badly the shrapnel hurt him, or whether Al Gore's wording of his leading role in funding the internet's development makes him a liar.
M: My intention is different. I want Budmantom to appreciate that aspect of his point of view that is of value, really appreciate it to the point where he doesn't need to be or feel defensive about what is wrong with it, the turn a blind eye part. The left totally assaults the right and the right totally assaults the left and both are partly right and partly wrong. One can't see that if one doesn't really respect one's own point of view or the motives of the opposition.
C: We need to recognize the underlying problems of defective voters who are voting badly in the fog of confusion over such issuse, and the defects of the system that manipulates them.
M: There is only one problem and it's that there isn't enough love and in particular, love of self, real love of self, not egotism.
C: My small contribution in that post was to intentionally bypass the distractions of listing 20 examples why Obama voters don't actually hate America, and make the more direct point.
M: Budmantom IS America. Try loving him.
C: As I mentioned yesterday, Al Gore wrote a book on the exact topic, "The Assault on Reason"; I was lazier and wrote two words.
M: The spirit is willing.....
C: To answer your specific question, why can't we acknowledge that what he sees is real for him - that the Obama supporters in this forum who make a majority of the members "hate America" - we can, but why, when that's not the issue? I'm not accusing him of really thinking they don't hate America but saying otherwise. The issue is the problem that he does believe it. How is it someone living in the most powerful nation in the world with access to education, books, the internet, has the rationality of a witch burner?
M: We have our power, our books, and our access because America is great, so don't hate it.
C: I don't mean that to be pejorative, I mean it to state a problem and ask a solution. It *is* pejorative, but that's not the purpose. It's difficult to address the problem and not state it.
M: Tell me about it. Imagine if people hated themselves and only Moonbeam knew it. Think of what a job he'd have. Imagine telling the king he smells like shit.
C: And in addition to the danger posed by the people who hold such views voting, there's an additional danger, that they are a threat to the very American (not exclusively) process of rational discussion of issues. Michael Parenti wrote about the mindset in his book "Superpatriotism", in which he describes people who are 'pro' their country to the extreme, but would have a difficult time defining why, because it's based more on things like the desire for superiority than anything reasonable, and how they tend to attack anyone who actually tries to improve the nation by identifying areas for improvement, or otherwise pointing out flaws, attempting to silence any such criticism - which has a harmful effect up to and including the perpetuation of wrongful wars.
M Imagine if humanity were dying of self hate. The disease you see in conservatives is also in liberals. There is no love of self. It's always that the other is dangerous and must be destroyed. There is no good or evil. The world is, was, and always will be absolutely perfect. Not a single thing needs to be changed. The struggle to save the world ends not by saving anything but by awakening.
So it's with some strong concern I condemn that process that is so dangerous.
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