I'm a Dem but i think socialism is bad

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thilanliyan

Lifer
Jun 21, 2005
11,944
2,175
126
Yes, but those countries are very small compared to America. What works for Sweeden or Denmark would be difficult to enforce here. Think about it. If we tried to emulate one of those Nordic countries, it would go down to the state level. Each state would have a say. So, you'd have true socilism in the blue states and a lot of push back in the red states. IMO, we would see a wave of people moving north. And why not. Free health care. The need to work less. Free college. Do you really think states like Mississippi or Arkansas would follow the socilism route? Do you really think most people there would like to see their taxes raised? Hell no.

I could be wrong. I just don't see it working out, and TBH I doubt socilism will ever make it in America. I tell people all the time, "If you wait for the government to fix your life you are in a world of hurt. It's up to you. No one is going to do it for you." Remember Obama's Change, Hope. Or Trump's Make America Great Again. How has that worked out for the average American? Yet, I met a foreigner last week. He's from Romania. Within a 5 year span he's opened 2 businesses, and is about to open his third. He also works 16 hours a day. People don't want to hear the truth though.
It does not have to be identical to systems in other countries, it would need to be modified for the best fit of course.

If those states not providing healthcare for example want to keep those citizens then they better provide the services people are looking for. I'm fairly certain the majority of Americans would be on board with universal healthcare and they can demand it from their states. As for cost it's been shown in several studies that it will actually cost LESS than the current system, so taxes don't have to go up for that. It would most likely have to go up for other things like free college, etc. however.
 

brycejones

Lifer
Oct 18, 2005
27,651
26,752
136
Exactly.

I always say if you want confidence, self esteem you have to be productive. You have to actually engage in life. It's human nature to do as little as possible. Your mind will trick you to not do much, because it doesn't want to exert much energy.

I'm sure you have studies to cite for this view of psychology.
 

Mai72

Lifer
Sep 12, 2012
11,562
1,741
126
Tell that to people who work 2 jobs just to be able to afford food for their kids and rent.

Maybe you get a lot more lazy fucks of the overall proportion where you live.

I live at the shore in NJ. It's a very difficult place to live, because it's so seasonal. And, can be quite expensive. Especially with children. I do feel sorry for people who are having difficulty making it today. There are options in NJ though. You can get free health care if you make under $12k a year.
 

dasherHampton

Platinum Member
Jan 19, 2018
2,543
488
96
There seem to be two "socialisms" that everyone keeps throwing back and forth at one another.

One is economically focused socialism, the kind that includes things like nationalization of industry and obscene taxes on the "wealthy". The other is socially focused socialism, which includes things like nationalized healthcare and social safety nets.

The first should be shunned at all costs, by everyone. It has never worked and will never work in the long term. The second is worth exploring imo.

It seems to me that people who are afraid of socialism type 1 and those in favor of socialism type 2 are always yelling at each other about apples vs. oranges.
 

Indus

Lifer
May 11, 2002
11,871
8,282
136
I live at the shore in NJ. It's a very difficult place to live, because it's so seasonal. And, can be quite expensive. Especially with children. I do feel sorry for people who are having difficulty making it today.

Yeah but you need to understand feeling something is not a solution. Just like

1552236265539.png

Is not a solution.

We need an actual solution and a green new deal's top 3 things provide that.

1. a guarantee of a job (not a handout so people do have to work)
2. a guarantee of a living wage (to be able to afford food and a roof)
3. a guarantee of health care (for when people get sick).

This isn't a welfare handout. This is a bare minimum.

We have to realize the middle class is the FORMER middle class. We have become the working poor. And just get a job and work hard doesn't work for the majority of us who already have a job and are working hard and still struggle to get by not because of crazy expenses or bad drug habits but because of economics and the system which favors giving the rich all the tax breaks instead of us.
 
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Mai72

Lifer
Sep 12, 2012
11,562
1,741
126
There seem to be two "socialisms" that everyone keeps throwing back and forth at one another.

One is economically focused socialism, the kind that includes things like nationalization of industry and obscene taxes on the "wealthy". The other is socially focused socialism, which includes things like nationalized healthcare and social safety nets.

The first should be shunned at all costs, by everyone. It has never worked and will never work in the long term. The second is worth exploring imo.

It seems to me that people who are afraid of socialism type 1 and those in favor of socialism type 2 are always yelling at each other about apples vs. oranges.

The talk about socialism has gotten a bad rap. The issue is can the candidates who are in favor of socialism explain it well enough so people above 50 jump on board. The people who vote today tend to be old or older. Young people are notoriously absent from the ballet boxes. They don't vote, and they would be the ones who would benefot most from this. Not the old. Would there even be enough young votes.
 

1prophet

Diamond Member
Aug 17, 2005
5,313
534
126
Exactly.

I always say if you want confidence, self esteem you have to be productive. You have to actually engage in life. It's human nature to do as little as possible. Your mind will trick you to not do much, because it doesn't want to exert much energy.

I'm sure you have studies to cite for this view of psychology.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/hide-and-seek/201505/the-causes-laziness

Our nomadic ancestors had to conserve energy to compete for scarce resources and to fight or flee enemies and predators. Expending effort on anything other than short-term advantage could jeopardize their very survival. In any case, in the absence of modern conveniences such as antibiotics, banks, roads, and refrigeration, it made little sense to think long term.


Today, mere survival has fallen off the agenda, and, with ever increasing life expectancies, it is long-term strategizing and effort-making that leads to the best outcomes. Yet, our instinct, which has not caught up, is still for conserving energy, making us reluctant to expend effort on abstract projects with distant and uncertain payoffs.


Ambition and perspective can override instinct, and some people are more future-oriented than others, whom, from the heights of their success, they often deride as ‘lazy’. Indeed, laziness has become so intimately associated with poverty and failure that a poor person is commonly presumed to be lazy, no matter how little or much he actually works.


In general, people find it painful to expend effort on long-term goals that do not provide any immediate gratification. For them to embark on a project, they need to believe that the return on their labour is likely to exceed their loss of comfort. The problem is that they tend to distrust and discount a return that is distant or uncertain. People are poor calculators. Tonight they may eat and drink indiscriminately, without factoring in the longer-term consequences for their health, endurance, and appearance, or even tomorrow’s hangover.


The ancient philosopher Epicurus famously argued that pleasure is the highest good for man. However, he cautioned that not everything that is pleasurable should be pursued, and conversely, not everything that is painful should be avoided. Instead, a kind of hedonistic calculus should be applied to determine which things are most likely to result in the greatest pleasure over time, and it is above all this hedonistic calculus that people are unable to handle.


Many ‘lazy’ people are not intrinsically lazy, but are so because they have not found what they want to do, or because, for one reason or another, they are not doing it. To make matters worse, the job that pays their bills and fills their best hours may have become so abstract and specialized that they can no longer fully grasp its purpose or product, and, by extension, their part in improving other peoples’ lives. A builder can look with aching satisfaction upon the houses that he has built, and a doctor can take pride and joy in the restored health and gratitude of his patients, but an assistant deputy financial controller in a large corporation cannot be at all certain of the effect or end-product of his labour. So why should he bother?


Other factors that can lead to ‘laziness’ are fear and hopelessness. Some people fear success, or do not have enough self-esteem to feel comfortable with success, and laziness is a way of sabotaging themselves. Shakespeare conveyed this idea much more eloquently and succinctly in Antony and Cleopatra: ‘Fortune knows we scorn her most when most she offers blows.’ Conversely, other people fear failure, and laziness is preferable to failure because it is at one remove. “It’s not that I failed, it’s that I never tried.”


Yet other people are ‘lazy’ because they understand their situation as being so hopeless that they cannot even begin to think through it, let alone do something about it. As these people are unable to address their situation, it could be argued that they are not truly lazy, and, to some extent, the same could be said of all lazy people. In other words, the very concept of laziness presupposes the ability to choose not to be lazy—that is, presupposes the existence of free will.


I could close with a self-help pep talk or my top-10 tips for over-coming laziness, but, in the longer term, the only way to overcome laziness is to understand its nature and particular cause or causes: to think, think, and think, and over the years, slowly arrive at a better way of living.
 

MagnusTheBrewer

IN MEMORIAM
Jun 19, 2004
24,122
1,594
126
"Humans will do as little as they can to get by" implies laziness. I see too many both rich and poor gaming the system. They believe this to be smart. Fygm. The problem is the cost of gaming the system only affects the middle class because the costs are negligible for the wealthy. Since our society is based on capital, I propose the penalties for abusing the system be based on the total dollar amount of the abuse. Collecting welfare and unemployment is currently a full time job. The wealthy would have us believe the costs of social welfare are unsupportable while their business practices have a far greater impact and reach than any welfare net ever. The social welfare boogeyman is exactly the same as Trump's wall, no discernable threat but, plays well to the hate mongers.
 

Greenman

Lifer
Oct 15, 1999
20,940
5,562
136
Yeah but you need to understand feeling something is not a solution. Just like

View attachment 4079

Is not a solution.

We need an actual solution and a green new deal's top 3 things provide that.

1. a guarantee of a job (not a handout so people do have to work)
2. a guarantee of a living wage (to be able to afford food and a roof)
3. a guarantee of health care (for when people get sick).

This isn't a welfare handout. This is a bare minimum.

We have to realize the middle class is the FORMER middle class. We have become the working poor. And just get a job and work hard doesn't work for the majority of us who already have a job and are working hard and still struggle to get by not because of crazy expenses or bad drug habits but because of economics and the system which favors giving the rich all the tax breaks instead of us.
Who guarantees that job and wage? The only way I see that happening is if it's a government guarantee, and to make that happen it has to be a right. What happens to people that simply don't want to work? Do they stay home and collect a check? Do we force them to work?

Who decides what a "living wage" is, and what areas it applies to? A living wage in San Francisco is around $100k per year, in bumfuck Alabama it's probably a lot less.

These things are easy to say, not so easy to make happen.
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
36,734
28,908
136
In the US:
Socialism does not raise the poor up to the level of the middle class.
It lowers the middle class down to the level of the poor.
The main flaw is it destroys the incentive to produce.

The safety net has become a hammock.
Before you start a thread on socialism clarify what you think it means.
 

Mai72

Lifer
Sep 12, 2012
11,562
1,741
126
Yeah but you need to understand feeling something is not a solution. Just like

View attachment 4079

Is not a solution.

We need an actual solution and a green new deal's top 3 things provide that.

1. a guarantee of a job (not a handout so people do have to work)
2. a guarantee of a living wage (to be able to afford food and a roof)
3. a guarantee of health care (for when people get sick).

This isn't a welfare handout. This is a bare minimum.

We have to realize the middle class is the FORMER middle class. We have become the working poor. And just get a job and work hard doesn't work for the majority of us who already have a job and are working hard and still struggle to get by not because of crazy expenses or bad drug habits but because of economics and the system which favors giving the rich all the tax breaks instead of us.

I get it. It is much more difficult today to get by. But, maybe part of this is our fault? How many people by $35k cars when they are only making $50k a year? How many of us don't keep a budget? How many of us buy homes we can't afford? Play the lottery when we should be saving and investing? How many of us are actually reading financial books, so we can in turn have greater control on our finances? Instead, how much TV do we typically watch a week? How many hours of video games do we play per week as well? So yes, it's much more difficult today. I'm not going to argue you on this. But, how much of it is our own doing?

I like listening to Dave Ramsey. I don't agree with everthing that he sas, but the one thing I do agree with is personal responsibility. You can't change the world. You can't change the cost of things. But, you can change your habits. Your mindset. Take the red pill. You have to see the world for what it is, and not for how you'd like it to be. The world can be a mean and nasty place. Anyway, Mr. Ramsey along with Chris Hogan did one of the larget studies on millionaires. They interviewed over 10,000 millionaires, and how they got wealthy. This is what they found.

Top 3 Self Made Millionaires:
1) Engineer
2) Accountant
3) Teacher

Teacher was #3. That blew my frekin mind. They interviewed a teacher who had a net worth of $1m and she had just turned 40. How is this possible? Well, they invest in themselves. They don't buy new cars, big homes. You see, many of us are spending money on crap we don't need. They also found that most didn't acquire their wealth from realitives, or that rich uncle. Most started from ZERO. Nothing. Again, most if not all invest in themselves. Anyway, it's just another way of looking at what we are currently facing. I just think personal responsibilty needs to be discussed more, but most people don't want to face the truth. Stop spending money on things you can't afford. Get rid of your car payments. Buy a $2k car. You shouldn''t be going on vacations if you're in debt. Sell your home if you need the money. Work 3 jobs if you have too. No more Netflix, or video games. For now anyway. Work on your skillset. Wake up early. Go to bed late. Move if you have too.

BTW, you get taxed more as an upper middle class person who is making over $70k a year, and this has to do with bracket creep. It just means the more money you make, you'll be moved into a higher tax bracket. That is how they get you. And, what do most people do? They buy a bigger car. A bigger home. They are buying things that carry bigger taxes. It's no suprise that someone who makes $120k a year is in debt. Instead, they should swallow their ego. IMO, they should down size into a smaller home. Buy a used car, and bank the rest. Invest in things that aren't taxed. You'll live a much happier life that way. It's our attachment to materalism and materalistic things that keeps us in chains.

https://www.daveramsey.com/research/the-national-study-of-millionaires

 
Last edited:

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
34,007
8,040
136
In the US:
Socialism does not raise the poor up to the level of the middle class.
It lowers the middle class down to the level of the poor.
The main flaw is it destroys the incentive to produce.

The safety net has become a hammock.

In the US:
Capitalism is cannibalizing and DESTROYING both the poor and the middle class.
The main flaw is that it strips labor from consumers who would buy the produce.
The income of Americans has diminished greatly over the past generation.

Trickle down has become a whirlpool, sucking down wealth and threatening our way of life.

You do not know the meaning of the word socialism. That is propaganda speaking, are you drunk? Something has dulled your senses. By definition, Socialism is "seizing the means of production". To attack the free market, to attack Capitalism. In contrast, our effort is to SAVE Capitalism from cannibalizing the very workers / consumers it depends on in order to function. Our goal is to restore wages, to MAGA by having our people share in the productivity of a wealthy country.

In the past 40 years that wealth has been stolen. Hoarded by a greedy Wall Street that only serves itself. That offshores labor, cuts wages, automates production, and invests in growth IN OTHER nations. It is not their job to care for the American people. That is OUR job. The duty of our people, and thus our government, to ensure that we look out for ourselves. That we protect our people from all enemies, foreign and domestic. I tell you now, one domestic "enemy" is the greed of Wall Street and the nature of a people in competition to steal from one another. There is a sickness gripping our nation, leaving many of our people broken and destitute.

Ours is a movement to restore balance. To cure the disease by lifting our people up. If you cannot get behind that, if you cannot see yourself fighting FOR our people, then what do you call yourself? What is it you think we have in common? I am for the Democrats because Republicans do not even acknowledge the problem. They do not offer any solutions. I am for Democrats because my solution is Basic Income, and medicare for all. And Democrats are most likely to endorse or support my effort. To help me realize my dreams and my goals of securing the American people for a bright and prosperous future.

Call it Socialism if you want, I call it saving Capitalism, and saving our nation from self destruction.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,634
50,860
136
Yes, but those countries are very small compared to America. What works for Sweeden or Denmark would be difficult to enforce here. Think about it. If we tried to emulate one of those Nordic countries, it would go down to the state level. Each state would have a say. So, you'd have true socilism in the blue states and a lot of push back in the red states. IMO, we would see a wave of people moving north. And why not. Free health care. The need to work less. Free college. Do you really think states like Mississippi or Arkansas would follow the socilism route? Do you really think most people there would like to see their taxes raised? Hell no.

I could be wrong. I just don't see it working out, and TBH I doubt socilism will ever make it in America. I tell people all the time, "If you wait for the government to fix your life you are in a world of hurt. It's up to you. No one is going to do it for you." Remember Obama's Change, Hope. Or Trump's Make America Great Again. How has that worked out for the average American? Yet, I met a foreigner last week. He's from Romania. Within a 5 year span he's opened 2 businesses, and is about to open his third. He also works 16 hours a day. People don't want to hear the truth though.

It works in Japan, which has 130 million people. They are huge.
 

sportage

Lifer
Feb 1, 2008
11,492
3,161
136
Republicans are redefining the term socialism then applying it to democrats.
What Bernie wants for America is not your typical socialism.
What Bernie wants is healthcare for everyone, college for those that want it, and a decent living wage for those that work.
So, whats the big deal with THAT?
The top 1% already have all of this. And it is socialism. Socialism for the rich.
The wealthy can afford healthcare. That is socialism.
The wealthy can afford college. Once again, socialism.
They have their living wage and then some. Actually, a lot of then some. Again, socialism.

I loved listening to old Mike Pence a while back, going on about having medicare for all i.e. healthcare for all was thus enabling a "privileged" class.
WTF Mike????
YOU DARE talk of "privileged" when you are about as privileged as they get?
SO Mike, what do you call a very wealthy person that pays nothing in taxes?
Or a system that allows someone like Donald Trump to pass down millions in inherence to his kids with no tax burden?
SO Mike, you think a hard working schmuck that simply wants healthcare is somehow being "privileged"?
Mike Pence is just one of the many many things wrong with America.
GO BERNIE!

People voted for Donald Trump in 2016 because they believed Donald would "shake things up". Well.... the only shaking up Trump has done is a shake down of the American people to feather his own nest. If people really want shaking up in the good way, your only choice is Bernie Sanders. Bernie knows the meaning of shaking things up, in a good way and to benefit the middle class.
 

Indus

Lifer
May 11, 2002
11,871
8,282
136
Who guarantees that job and wage? The only way I see that happening is if it's a government guarantee, and to make that happen it has to be a right. What happens to people that simply don't want to work? Do they stay home and collect a check? Do we force them to work?

Who decides what a "living wage" is, and what areas it applies to? A living wage in San Francisco is around $100k per year, in bumfuck Alabama it's probably a lot less.

These things are easy to say, not so easy to make happen.

Yeah.. you should see page 11 of the tax thread where I'm accused of being so many things because I live in NYC..

I think the living wage and poverty guidelines (medicare/ medicaid) will have to be zone based.. $15 an hour still isn't enough for NYC but its way too much for Alabama like you said. Property taxes are nowhere the same proportion either.

I think green new deal has to be a government guarantee and it can be.. there are so many things we need done where we need to increase the size of government which will create jobs.

For example immigration: Why does getting a green card after marriage take 12-18 months?

Why does getting a fiance/ marriage visa take 2-3 years?

I've been through this.. if we had more people working the backlog wouldn't be so bad. And maybe just maybe the fucking potholes would get fixed sooner too..
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
73,286
6,351
126
How was that a study? I saw an opinion piece. I saw a personal analysis of a situation based on assumed premises.

Let’s pretend that we know that evolution favored people with the will to constantly improve their situation and the condition of their tribe and that’s the evolutionary reason humans seek socialism. Such an assumption will produce a different psychology blog piece.

Perhaps you can see in this way that you actually know nothing but the stories you tell yourself and thus imagine are real, stories shared with others to protect you from the realization you are clueless.

Socialism is a word that produces an ejaculation of past conditioning, a regurgation of ideological programming.
 

Maxima1

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2013
3,538
759
146
Teacher was #3. That blew my frekin mind. They interviewed a teacher who had a net worth of $1m and she had just turned 40. How is this possible? Well, they invest in themselves. They don't buy new cars, big homes. You see, many of us are spending money on crap we don't need. They also found that most didn't acquire their wealth from realitives, or that rich uncle. Most started from ZERO. Nothing. Again, most if not all invest in themselves. Anyway, it's just another way of looking at what we are currently facing. I just think personal responsibilty needs to be discussed more, but most people don't want to face the truth. Stop spending money on things you can't afford. Get rid of your car payments. Buy a $2k car. You shouldn''t be going on vacations if you're in debt. Sell your home if you need the money. Work 3 jobs if you have too. No more Netflix, or video games. For now anyway. Work on your skillset. Wake up early. Go to bed late. Move if you have too.

i'm guessing that teacher was well above median income for most of those years. I've also seen a story about a librarian not paid a whole lot who saved a similar amount, but at 60. Though, you just let life pass you by at that point.

This isn't as illuminating as you think. if everyone acted like that teacher, returns would lower and the economy wouldn't be so hot. lmao Some of the brightest people today are working on trying to get people to click the ads.

Yet, I met a foreigner last week. He's from Romania. Within a 5 year span he's opened 2 businesses, and is about to open his third. He also works 16 hours a day. People don't want to hear the truth though.

Yeah, and this guy isn't a random sample. You have to realize personalities are different, half of the pop are at or lower than 100 IQ, etc.
 
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heymrdj

Diamond Member
May 28, 2007
3,999
63
91
Yes, but those countries are very small compared to America. What works for Sweeden or Denmark would be difficult to enforce here. Think about it. If we tried to emulate one of those Nordic countries, it would go down to the state level. Each state would have a say. So, you'd have true socilism in the blue states and a lot of push back in the red states. IMO, we would see a wave of people moving north. And why not. Free health care. The need to work less. Free college. Do you really think states like Mississippi or Arkansas would follow the socilism route? Do you really think most people there would like to see their taxes raised? Hell no.

I could be wrong. I just don't see it working out, and TBH I doubt socilism will ever make it in America. I tell people all the time, "If you wait for the government to fix your life you are in a world of hurt. It's up to you. No one is going to do it for you." Remember Obama's Change, Hope. Or Trump's Make America Great Again. How has that worked out for the average American? Yet, I met a foreigner last week. He's from Romania. Within a 5 year span he's opened 2 businesses, and is about to open his third. He also works 16 hours a day. People don't want to hear the truth though.

So he loves to work? He knows nothing but work? Knows nothing of what the world has to offer? Hasn’t experienced arts and sciences of intrigue? Spent weeks just doing something of self interest? That’s what we want for people as a first world country, work to the grave as a worker ant and never know anything else. Those are the docile ones to rule over.

People will say he’s building a great life for later. Others will realize he may never to see it, like my cousin that just dropped dead in perfect health at 26 last week. His hard work will certainly pay off for someone else, he just never lived long enough to enjoy any of it.
 
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Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
How was that a study? I saw an opinion piece. I saw a personal analysis of a situation based on assumed premises.

Let’s pretend that we know that evolution favored people with the will to constantly improve their situation and the condition of their tribe and that’s the evolutionary reason humans seek socialism. Such an assumption will produce a different psychology blog piece.

Perhaps you can see in this way that you actually know nothing but the stories you tell yourself and thus imagine are real, stories shared with others to protect you from the realization you are clueless.

Socialism is a word that produces an ejaculation of past conditioning, a regurgation of ideological programming.

They're like Pavlov's dogs.
 

Thrashard

Member
Oct 6, 2016
140
28
71
Socialism will exist in the future, but it will involve multiple planets working together. Bits and pieces of the puzzle has been scattered all over the earth. We all have been lied to and given 1/2 truths on everything while Governments hiding important puzzle pieces
 

Sunburn74

Diamond Member
Oct 5, 2009
5,037
2,615
136
Top 3 Self Made Millionaires:
1) Engineer
2) Accountant
3) Teacher
I don't think there is such a thing as a "self made millionaire". Did the millionaire create his own parents and his own genes? Did he create the country he was born into? Did he deliver himself as a baby in good health? Did he create the schools that taught him (and his potential workers) or build the roads he walked on to get to those schools? Did he personally clean and filter the water he drank?
No. We like to ignore all these things when we publicize fairy tales of entirely self-made millionaires even when clearly these are the biggest and most important determinants of financial success in the US (were you healthy as a child, were your parents educated or wealthy, did you get access to a good education, etc etc).
 
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Indus

Lifer
May 11, 2002
11,871
8,282
136
So he loves to work? He knows nothing but work? Knows nothing of what the world has to offer? Hasn’t experienced arts and sciences of intrigue? Spent weeks just doing something of self interest? That’s what we want for people as a first world country, work to the grave as a worker ant and never know anything else. Those are the docile ones to rule over.

People will say he’s building a great life for later. Others will realize he may never to see it, like my cousin that just dropped dead in perfect health at 26 last week. His hard work will certainly pay off for someone else, he just never lived long enough to enjoy any of it.

Sorry to hear that man.. 26 so young.

Kinda reminds me of my dentist.. she was 25, just got married and her husband dropped dead within 2 months. They still can't figure out how.. went to sleep and didn't wake up, 26 years old. :(