Ignorance and Racism Leads to 3 Deaths

[Sheik Yerbouti]

Racism is bad, but not the main cause of this guys horrible acts.

See here.

http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=38102210&postcount=87

Huh, gotcha I guess. No chance this was driven by racism and satiated by crazy?

 

[realibrad]

Huh, gotcha I guess. No chance this was driven by racism and satiated by crazy?

What do you think?

Both had influence here, but which one do you think is the likely bigger issue?

 

[jackstar7]

FYI, you could have given some comment about how this supports you.

First, you have a judge who reversed his stance because he agrees with you. He is not a Dr. though so not much that I care.

Next you have a defense attorney who seems to agree with you, but again, not a professional so meh.

Then, you have an actual Dr. who did studies where they found 60-80% of the people who were murderers had abuse in their past, but did not say that all murderers had mental illness.

Then, you had another Dr. who said that the 60-80% was way off, and was actually about 10%.

Kuper said that in a study, they found 90% of those on death row had mental illness. The issue here is that the article does not link the research, so we are left to take the word of the writer. Could there have been a misunderstanding, well who knows.

So yeah, I will dismiss all of this, because the majority of it meant nothing, and the one part that could have meant something has nothing to back it up.

Kudos.

I offered it for dismissal, did I not?

You seem awfully put upon. Maybe time for a break from this? Not trying to be a dick, just saying you don't seem invigorated by discussion, but rather seem like it is tedium. Where's the fun in that? It seems like you're stuck in the fallacy fallacy if I had to put a label on it. You care more about spotting the poor arguments so you can dismiss them than giving consideration to an idea and maybe considering that the person putting forth those ideas isn't trying to trick you or otherwise do you harm. Am I wrong?

 

[realibrad]

I offered it for dismissal, did I not?

You seem awfully put upon. Maybe time for a break from this? Not trying to be a dick, just saying you don't seem invigorated by discussion, but rather seem like it is tedium. Where's the fun in that? It seems like you're stuck in the fallacy fallacy if I had to put a label on it. You care more about spotting the poor arguments so you can dismiss them than giving consideration to an idea and maybe considering that the person putting forth those ideas isn't trying to trick you or otherwise do you harm. Am I wrong?

Lol so you posted something for the purpose of having it dismissed and not because you thought it supported your argument?

I don't think you are trying to trick me or be a dick at this point. I think your view on this is flawed and I have explained why and given my view with supporting logic. I do care about seeing the flaws in arguments, because if you dont then how can you progress a discussion?

Surely you are not advocating just spouting ideas and walking away?

 

[jackstar7]

Lol so you posted something for the purpose of having it dismissed and not because you thought it supported your argument?

I don't think you are trying to trick me or be a dick at this point. I think your view on this is flawed and I have explained why and given my view with supporting logic. I do care about seeing the flaws in arguments, because if you dont then how can you progress a discussion?

Surely you are not advocating just spouting ideas and walking away?

Did I walk away? Nay, I did not. But can you consider that just because an argument is presented with a flaw, that there might be validity to the idea inside it?

I don't think you provided sound logic with your dismissal... but that's fine. You don't have to disprove anything. That's a non-starter.

Do you think that there is no innate aspect to humanity towards preservation of the species? Or is it only preservation of the self?

If murder was part of our natural state, wouldn't it be a norm and not even outlawed?

And again, I'm trying to make the clear distinction between killing and murder. With your example of inherited racism, how is the person operating under a warped and incorrect worldview not mentally ill? How are you defining mental illness? Did I miss it in a previous post, or am I forgetting it?

I'll see if I can better explain my thoughts. I'm feeling a little jumbled at this time.

 

[dank69]

http://www.jsonline.com/news/milwau...-demons-witchcraft-b99688262z1-372249111.html

This should clear up a lot of things.







There is lots more.

Now, you tell me. Is this mainly about mental health, or racism. It sure seems to me that racism was the least of the issue here.

You just made my point for me. He has been mentally unstable for over 8 years. Never killed anybody. Seeing minorities that spoke English poorly triggered this incident. It is likely that this was bubbling under the surface since he started seeing them on a regular basis.

 

[realibrad]

You just made my point for me. He has been mentally unstable for over 8 years. Never killed anybody. Seeing minorities that spoke English poorly triggered this incident. It is likely that this was bubbling under the surface since he started seeing them on a regular basis.

So, is your takeaway that the bigger issue was his racism, or his mental health? Im not asking which one you think we need to address over another either. For me, this all started with my comment about how this will be played as a race issue rather than the larger mental health issue. Seems pretty clear to me that biggest reason was his mental state. Racism did nothing but make the situation worse which is not unexpected, but the was very ill.

 

[HomerJS]

What do you think?

Both had influence here, but which one do you think is the likely bigger issue?

I'll answer by asking a question...

Do you honestly think he would have had a problem if they had been French speaking ex-pats?

 

[dank69]

So, is your takeaway that the bigger issue was his racism, or his mental health? Im not asking which one you think we need to address over another either. For me, this all started with my comment about how this will be played as a race issue rather than the larger mental health issue. Seems pretty clear to me that biggest reason was his mental state. Racism did nothing but make the situation worse which is not unexpected, but the was very ill.

I don't know what difference it makes which one was a bigger issue. If it makes you feel better I'll say mental health was his bigger issue? I guess? Doesn't change my opinion that racism was likely the bigger factor in this specific incident, if that's what you are asking. He targeted these people specifically because they "needed to go." Doesn't seem like he tried to kill his "gay neighbor who was out to kill him."

 

[realibrad]

Did I walk away? Nay, I did not. But can you consider that just because an argument is presented with a flaw, that there might be validity to the idea inside it?

Sure. We do that with the law of gravity. We know its wrong, but we still use it. We do this with the caveat that it will be questioned and picked at so we can improve it. When I know I have a flawed view, I question the wrong parts so I can get closer to understanding.

So in this context, I'm not saying that mental health is not a big factor in driving murderers. That would go against my original point in this thread. What I am saying is that not all murderers are mentally ill.

That is discourse. Expect to be challenged. If I had been disrespectful that might be a different issue, but I have not been. You make absolute statements and I point out the flaw. I also take your feedback and challenge my views.

I don't think you provided sound logic with your dismissal... but that's fine. You don't have to disprove anything. That's a non-starter.

Apparently. You did nothing to explain where I was flawed, so I guess that is done.

Do you think that there is no innate aspect to humanity towards preservation of the species? Or is it only preservation of the self?

Wow, that kinda came out of left field there. Of course there is both. A society that is built only on the preservation of the self will have no qualms with killing others for individual gain. That would cause a long term investment problem. If the society did not care about individuals, then there would be short and long run investment problems. Either extreme would not be optimal and would increase human suffering and reduce progress. Sounds horrible.

If murder was part of our natural state, wouldn't it be a norm and not even outlawed?

No. Forgive me, but that is stupid. No way you thought that through. Anger, Joy, Sorrow ect are all parts of natural human emotion. Without getting into a much larger discussion about evolution, understand that we have emotions that can, if left unchecked, drive us to do things that are not in our best interests.

And again, I'm trying to make the clear distinction between killing and murder. With your example of inherited racism, how is the person operating under a warped and incorrect worldview not mentally ill? How are you defining mental illness? Did I miss it in a previous post, or am I forgetting it?

That is an issue there. There is not a well established definition for mental illness. I use it differently than many would I bet. Mental illness is when someone has a mental condition that drives them to do something that is not fully in their self interests.

That would be different than say making decisions with flawed information. If you are taught to believe in god X and that god does not exist, you are not mentally ill inherently. You would still be wrong, but not ill.

Being given wrong information with the presupposition that it was correct is not abuse. It can be harmful, but its not abuse.

I'll see if I can better explain my thoughts. I'm feeling a little jumbled at this time.

Thats fine. This is complex. If you would rather, you can PM me and we can discuss there. Public comments tend to get distracted by others.

 

[realibrad]

I'll answer by asking a question...

Do you honestly think he would have had a problem if they had been French speaking ex-pats?

Possibly. I think the implication is that the people you just described would likely be white which may or may not be true. I think any thought of foreign person would have made them a target on that day. He killed a Puerto Rican and then a Hmong couple. You go from Latino to Asian. Its really hard to predict what a mentally ill person will or wont do though. They are by definition irrational.

I think you are partly asking if I think race had anything to do with this, and my answer is yes. It is what made him pick these people, but I also think he would have killed regardless. His mother was even in fear of him. His brother was given all his guns back in 08 because the guy was ill. Not good signs.

 

[realibrad]

I don't know what difference it makes which one was a bigger issue. If it makes you feel better I'll say mental health was his bigger issue? I guess? Doesn't change my opinion that racism was likely the bigger factor in this specific incident, if that's what you are asking. He targeted these people specifically because they "needed to go." Doesn't seem like he tried to kill his "gay neighbor who was out to kill him."

It makes a difference. If you think that in this case, his mental health was a bigger issue, then addressing it over the racism would likely had bigger returns. If we look at mass shootings in general, we see a steady theme of mental issues. Why not focus on the thing that is present in the majority of these acts instead in the small issues in individual incidences?

The whole argument for gun control is to reduce deaths in this country. Guns are easy to access and thus are used a lot. If people did not use guns for killing, almost nobody would be questioning guns. Guns are the single factor that is part of 100% of shootings, so its rational to look at it. There are always other factors in shootings which should also be looked at and addressed, but guns are always part of shootings. I bet you would never say that we should look at the smaller factors for shootings, but you are making that argument for this incident.

Addressing mental illness seems to be easier than trying to figure out every other factor in murders. You can have efficiency gains because you are focusing on a single topic instead of infinite.

 

[dank69]

It makes a difference. If you think that in this case, his mental health was a bigger issue, then addressing it over the racism would likely had bigger returns. If we look at mass shootings in general, we see a steady theme of mental issues. Why not focus on the thing that is present in the majority of these acts instead in the small issues in individual incidences?

The whole argument for gun control is to reduce deaths in this country. Guns are easy to access and thus are used a lot. If people did not use guns for killing, almost nobody would be questioning guns. Guns are the single factor that is part of 100% of shootings, so its rational to look at it. There are always other factors in shootings which should also be looked at and addressed, but guns are always part of shootings. I bet you would never say that we should look at the smaller factors for shootings, but you are making that argument for this incident.

Addressing mental illness seems to be easier than trying to figure out every other factor in murders. You can have efficiency gains because you are focusing on a single topic instead of infinite.

Of course we should address mental illness. Nobody is saying we shouldn't. Of course that isn't easy but that is another debate. The only reason people are arguing with you here is because you seem to be saying that people are wrong to focus on the racist aspect of this obviously racist incident.

As for your bet, you would lose it. I'm about as libertarian as you can get when it comes to guns. RPGs, gunships and suitcase nukes for everyone! IDGAF. Sure, you could statistically reduce the number of deaths by restricting guns more but I value liberty much more over safety and I have never even owned a gun and never plan to. "Shit happens" is the price we pay for our freedom. Now I'm obviously not going to argue against attempting to keep weapons out of the hands of the mentally unstable, but at the same time I recognize that we will never be able to accomplish that in 100% of cases. We do our best and accept that we can't control everything.

 

[realibrad]

Of course we should address mental illness. Nobody is saying we shouldn't. Of course that isn't easy but that is another debate. The only reason people are arguing with you here is because you seem to be saying that people are wrong to focus on the racist aspect of this obviously racist incident.

It seems that way? When I get anywhere close to saying we should not focus on the racism aspect? I said this happened mainly because of his mental illness, but that people would make this a racist thing over mental illness thing.

You actually think I said to ignore the racist part?

As for your bet, you would lose it. I'm about as libertarian as you can get when it comes to guns. RPGs, gunships and suitcase nukes for everyone! IDGAF. Sure, you could statistically reduce the number of deaths by restricting guns more but I value liberty much more over safety and I have never even owned a gun and never plan to. "Shit happens" is the price we pay for our freedom. Now I'm obviously not going to argue against attempting to keep weapons out of the hands of the mentally unstable, but at the same time I recognize that we will never be able to accomplish that in 100% of cases. We do our best and accept that we can't control everything.

Okay.

 

[dank69]

Your first post in this thread clearly implies that calling this a racist incident is some sort of spin. If that isn't what you meant by played, you should probably clarify. Your first post also makes it seem like this is an either/or situation where it can't be both. Yes you have clarified since then that you didn't mean that but all this disagreement stems from your first post in this thread.

 

[realibrad]

Your first post in this thread clearly implies that calling this a racist incident is some sort of spin. If that isn't what you meant by played, you should probably clarify. Your first post also makes it seem like this is an either/or situation where it can't be both. Yes you have clarified since then that you didn't mean that but all this disagreement stems from your first post in this thread.

Well apparently it was not that clear, because its not what I meant to convey and I have explained that over and over in this thread.

What I meant by it was to say that people will focus on this as a hate crime over it being an issue of mental health. His racism had a role here, but it was not the larger issue that brought this about. So far I seem to be correct on that.

In no way did I ever come close to implying that his racism had nothing to do with this. People seem to think that I made that statement explicitly or implicitly but I did not. Hell, even with you I clearly said that his racism is what drove him to pick these people over others. We talked about that, but now you seem to go back to this idea that I am dismissing his racism.

Look at the headlines for this situation.

Milwaukee man kills three neighbors after learning one is from Puerto Rico: ‘You guys got to go’
-New York Daily News

‘You guys got to go': A shooting leaves three neighbors dead and a mystery to unravel
-Washington Post

Police: 3 killed after man learned victim was from Puerto Rico
-CBS Wisconsin

Read the articles and almost none bring up his mental health issues. We are helping nobody by not looking at the bigger issue of mental health.

Again, racism is bad. We as a society should do more about dealing with it. I say that again, because it should show you that I'm not trying to dismiss racism.

*Edit
Looking over my first comment, I think I see where your confusion is. You have to look at what I quoted and understand why I did. The OP did nothing to explain the situation at all. I read over the article and realized the whole thing was talking about the race part and then threw in one little part that I quoted. My comment was that the call was about mental health, and that this incident was going to be played as a race issue, but was likely a mental health issue.

Frame everything I said in that context and it should be clear for you.

 

[jackstar7]

So a mentally healthy person can murder.

You could be right, but it strikes me as counter-intuitive.

EDIT: Maybe that's my disconnect. Maybe I do see someone who is misinformed AND doesn't self-correct as mentally unhealthy. If the natural state of a human being is not to murder, and someone is educated to believe that murder is fine for whatever reason, then not self-correcting would be a sign of mental illness to me.

And I do think someone who is taught that a god exists and doesn't reach the conclusion on their own of that being incorrect is not mentally healthy. They are not enjoying the full breadth of what ought to be their resources of reason.

 

[dank69]

Well apparently it was not that clear, because its not what I meant to convey and I have explained that over and over in this thread.

What I meant by it was to say that people will focus on this as a hate crime over it being an issue of mental health. His racism had a role here, but it was not the larger issue that brought this about. So far I seem to be correct on that.

In no way did I ever come close to implying that his racism had nothing to do with this. People seem to think that I made that statement explicitly or implicitly but I did not. Hell, even with you I clearly said that his racism is what drove him to pick these people over others. We talked about that, but now you seem to go back to this idea that I am dismissing his racism.

Look at the headlines for this situation.







Read the articles and almost none bring up his mental health issues. We are helping nobody by not looking at the bigger issue of mental health.

Again, racism is bad. We as a society should do more about dealing with it. I say that again, because it should show you that I'm not trying to dismiss racism.

*Edit
Looking over my first comment, I think I see where your confusion is. You have to look at what I quoted and understand why I did. The OP did nothing to explain the situation at all. I read over the article and realized the whole thing was talking about the race part and then threw in one little part that I quoted. My comment was that the call was about mental health, and that this incident was going to be played as a race issue, but was likely a mental health issue.

Frame everything I said in that context and it should be clear for you.

Maybe it's more important to acknowledge that nurturing the racist tendencies of our nation the way the GOP has for so long and the way that Trump and his supporters are making it seem like those tendencies are legitimate and something to be proud of and act upon are exactly the things that push already mentally ill people over the edge into action?

 

[realibrad]

So a mentally healthy person can murder.

You could be right, but it strikes me as counter-intuitive.

EDIT: Maybe that's my disconnect. Maybe I do see someone who is misinformed AND doesn't self-correct as mentally unhealthy. If the natural state of a human being is not to murder, and someone is educated to believe that murder is fine for whatever reason, then not self-correcting would be a sign of mental illness to me.

And I do think someone who is taught that a god exists and doesn't reach the conclusion on their own of that being incorrect is not mentally healthy. They are not enjoying the full breadth of what ought to be their resources of reason.

Lol I mean dont feel too bad. If you are trying to look at how people can murder and you have even a drop of humanity it is pretty hard. Empathy helps reduce murder.

Not enjoying the full breath of life should not be looked too down upon right? I mean, most of us on here are techie people who enjoy sitting at computers.

 

[realibrad]

Maybe it's more important to acknowledge that nurturing the racist tendencies of our nation the way the GOP has for so long and the way that Trump and his supporters are making it seem like those tendencies are legitimate and something to be proud of and act upon are exactly the things that push already mentally ill people over the edge into action?

Even if you take that presupposition of the GOP and their activities (probably right), that to me is still less important than the mentally ill. In this incident, it really seems less important than his racism.

Again, your premise is that maybe racism is the thing that pushes them over the edge. The way you are framing it is that its smaller than the mental health issue. If the racism is just the last straw, how about remove the majority of the hay?

 

[dank69]

Even if you take that presupposition of the GOP and their activities (probably right), that to me is still less important than the mentally ill. In this incident, it really seems less important than his racism.

Again, your premise is that maybe racism is the thing that pushes them over the edge. The way you are framing it is that its smaller than the mental health issue. If the racism is just the last straw, how about remove the majority of the hay?

Never meant any of that. It's nigh impossible to fix either issue. Not shining a light on the obvious racist aspect of this crime would be counter-intuitive though, regardless of his mental health. You don't have people claiming that mental health isn't an issue or doesn't exist. You do have many people making those claims about racism and even being proud of it.

 

[realibrad]

Never meant any of that. It's nigh impossible to fix either issue. Not shining a light on the obvious racist aspect of this crime would be counter-intuitive though, regardless of his mental health. You don't have people claiming that mental health isn't an issue or doesn't exist. You do have many people making those claims about racism and even being proud of it.

Oh yes you do. Look at the first couple of posts after mine saying crap like this.

Hmm what kind of mental health thing forces someone to hate Spanish speaking people or people of a certain heritage.... what is that called?

Maybe he is just exuding his love for America by killing another American from Puerto Rico?

But if an Arab or Muslim person kills someone it's automatically terrorism...

Mental health my ass. If they spoke French he would not have cared.

Hell, even you jumped in with this BS.

Yeah. Arab does something similar = terrorist. Black guy does something similar = savage. Latino does something similar = baby-raping criminal. White guy does this = mental health issue.

All I did was try to point out that this was not just one thing, but a mental health thing mainly. You all jumped in and went after that idea. Once his history came out, many left because of it.

You are now onto the idea that I tried to say it was not racism at all, but that was never said by me in any way.

 

[dank69]

Oh yes you do. Look at the first couple of posts after mine saying crap like this.





Hell, even you jumped in with this BS.


All I did was try to point out that this was not just one thing, but a mental health thing mainly. You all jumped in and went after that idea. Once his history came out, many left because of it.

You are now onto the idea that I tried to say it was not racism at all, but that was never said by me in any way.

Those are all reactions by people who thought you were dismissing racism at the time, and none of us are claiming that mental health issues don't exist.

People have left the thread because it is well past it's expiration date. Talking in circles, semantics arguments, etc. We are wasting our time here.

 

[realibrad]

Those are all reactions by people who thought you were dismissing racism at the time, and none of us are claiming that mental health issues don't exist.

People have left the thread because it is well past it's expiration date. Talking in circles, semantics arguments, etc. We are wasting our time here.

So you think this comment was not saying it was just racism?

Mental health my ass. If they spoke French he would not have cared.

Or how about this one?

Ignorant and crazy people store their own urine in mason jars.

ignorant and crazy racists shoot their minority non-english-speaking neighbors.

so, I'm gonna go with racist here.

People, you included, tried to say that the racist part was the bigger issue. I found the article that showed he had a history of violence and mental issues. Now its shifted from the whole BS of, if a black guy did it, you would say this, to, well sure mental health had a role, but its too hard to solve.

People had dumb reactions based off of a narrative that they like to view everything from. I did not signal I was on their side, and as such you all jumped in with your BS. You could have asked me to be more clear, but instead you started with your shit to imply I was ignoring racism. It should be pretty clear by now that I hate racism and have sympathy for mental illness. You like the others want to generalize crimes when racism is involved and all it does is hold back progress.

You now seem to realize your initial response was based off of a misunderstanding. I doubt you will be able to explicitly admit that, and I dont need you do. But, its BS that people get so caught up in their narrative that they dont see the facts. The right is going through an existential crisis right now because of that very same thing. The left is not too far behind them and will soon go through the same thing. Politics has warped your mind and you have to see everything through your political filter. Same coin, different side.

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

What do you think?

Both had influence here, but which one do you think is the likely bigger issue?

What do I think? I think racism leads to hate. And hatred fuels racism, so it's a cyclical thing.