Ignorance and Racism Leads to 3 Deaths

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dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
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Lol, yes, who cares about the minor details or mass murder. Totally something we should look at in broad generalities.

Look, just because you took a stance that did not hold up does not mean you are being sucked into a whole. All you have to do is change your opinion.

The foundation of this thread started as Ignorance and racism lead to 3 deaths. That implies that it was just the ignorance of racism. I pointed out a quote form the original article that made me question if it was not mainly about mental health. I then was compared to saying all Blacks are just thugs when they do something, or all Arabs are terrorists when they do something ect. sunzt tried to make the argument it was not about mental health but just racism. Someone actually said this "Mental health my ass. If they spoke French he would not have cared."

You jumped in with the idea that all murders suffer from mental illness, which clouds an already cloudy issue with something that is not logical to me. I explain why and you don't seem to counter my points, just dismiss them. Now you are trying to say you are a victim of my misleading you. I think you are shutting down because ever point you have made comes from a broad oversimplification and you don't want to show your work.

You still haven't addressed the fact that most people that suffer from mental health issues don't kill people, so therefore, according to your own logic, something else must have accounted for this incident.
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
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You still haven't addressed the fact that most people that suffer from mental health issues don't kill people, so therefore, according to your own logic, something else must have accounted for this incident.

Except when I addressed your false premise in post 42 when I said the following.

If the call about the medical emergency was due to mental heath, then that group you just tried to place him in would be invalid. Depression that requires a medical emergency call would be nothing like the typical depression you are talking about.

So not what you said.

Depression is not analog, its a spectrum. The vast majority of depression does not require a medical emergency call. Your premise is that a cause such as depression should be looked at in the same way that a factor such as racism. That is incorrect, because there is a difference between a factor and a cause.

My premise has been from the start that people will focus just on the racism variable and ignore the more important issue of mental health.

Nothing of what you have said disproves my logic. You tried to establish a false equivalency and then built upon that. Mental health is not the same as racism. I sympathize with those who have mental illness, I denounce racism.
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
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Except when I addressed your false premise in post 42 when I said the following.



Depression is not analog, its a spectrum. The vast majority of depression does not require a medical emergency call. Your premise is that a cause such as depression should be looked at in the same way that a factor such as racism. That is incorrect, because there is a difference between a factor and a cause.

My premise has been from the start that people will focus just on the racism variable and ignore the more important issue of mental health.

Nothing of what you have said disproves my logic. You tried to establish a false equivalency and then built upon that. Mental health is not the same as racism. I sympathize with those who have mental illness, I denounce racism.
Why isn't it the same? Racism doesn't also exist along a spectrum? Of course it does.

Regardless, you are making huge assumptions:
We don't know how long he has been mentally ill. Maybe he has had problems his whole life and was just emboldened by everything happening recently. You can't rule this out right now. We just don't know for sure. We do know that even if this was some sudden mental health affliction that it manifested itself as a racist act.
 
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BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,563
9
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I'm not sure why it's difficult for some people to admit that this was caused by racism. It's pretty clear it was. Racism might someday be considered a mental illness, but for now it's just being an ignorant asshole.
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
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Why isn't it the same? Racism doesn't also exist along a spectrum? Of course it does.

First, this..."because there is a difference between a factor and a cause."

The belief that some races are inferior does not drive the vast majority of mass murders we see. The common theme no matter things like race, education, gender, is that mass murders tend to be mentally ill.

This should help.
http://www.differencebetween.com/difference-between-cause-and-vs-factor/

Yes, both racism and depression are both fall on a spectrum. I did not say that racism does not. Your premise that I was addressing there was that you believe many people have depression and thus depression and racism are the same. They are not because one is a cause and one is a factor. You have to use reading compression.


Regardless, you are making huge assumptions:
We don't know how long he has been mentally ill. Maybe he has had problems his whole life and was just emboldened by everything happening recently. You can't rule this out right now. We just don't know for sure. We do know that even if this was some sudden mental health affliction that it manifested itself as a racist act.

Nope. I clearly said this "Going to bet it was mental health." Unless you think that someone making a bet is someone who is making an absolute statement of fact instead of opinion, then I am going to assume you just forgot what I actually said.

I also said this, "What I am saying is that his motivations are likely due to his mental health vs just his racist beliefs."

Notice how I am not stating anything as absolute fact. I pointed out where I first thought there might be a mental health issue. I then quoted the article from VG where the guy said he was going to the car that was not there. That sounds like he was way out of it. I still dont know enough to say it was x% mental health, but what I did say was that people are going to focus on the racist part above all else. That so far has been correct.
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
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I'm not sure why it's difficult for some people to admit that this was caused by racism. It's pretty clear it was. Racism might someday be considered a mental illness, but for now it's just being an ignorant asshole.

Because racism is likely what drove him to choose those people, but not the reason he murdered. If he was a tree hugger it would have been someone else. The racism was the factor, not the cause.
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
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Maybe this will help.

You don't want a society of racists. Racism is stupid and wrong. You want to have a society that respects people, because if they get angry and don't respect people, they are less likely to hold back. The more respect we have for basic humanity the better. Racism is still a problem in the US. Its sick and sad how stupid people can be. I hate racism and am not afraid to call out friends and family on their racist shit. Not as much as I could sure, but it has caused problems for me and will do the same in the future.
 

jackstar7

Lifer
Jun 26, 2009
11,679
1,944
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Lol, yes, who cares about the minor details or mass murder. Totally something we should look at in broad generalities.

Look, just because you took a stance that did not hold up does not mean you are being sucked into a whole. All you have to do is change your opinion.

The foundation of this thread started as Ignorance and racism lead to 3 deaths. That implies that it was just the ignorance of racism. I pointed out a quote form the original article that made me question if it was not mainly about mental health. I then was compared to saying all Blacks are just thugs when they do something, or all Arabs are terrorists when they do something ect. sunzt tried to make the argument it was not about mental health but just racism. Someone actually said this "Mental health my ass. If they spoke French he would not have cared."

You jumped in with the idea that all murders suffer from mental illness, which clouds an already cloudy issue with something that is not logical to me. I explain why and you don't seem to counter my points, just dismiss them. Now you are trying to say you are a victim of my misleading you. I think you are shutting down because ever point you have made comes from a broad oversimplification and you don't want to show your work.

Man, I said you were right.

Just because I don't believe it, and I believe that all murder stems from mental illness and somehow you can't see the logic of that, doesn't change the fact that I said you were right on the internet. Take the win, champ. You did it.
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
35,203
28,218
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First, this..."because there is a difference between a factor and a cause."

The belief that some races are inferior does not drive the vast majority of mass murders we see. The common theme no matter things like race, education, gender, is that mass murders tend to be mentally ill.

This should help.
http://www.differencebetween.com/difference-between-cause-and-vs-factor/


Yes, both racism and depression are both fall on a spectrum. I did not say that racism does not. Your premise that I was addressing there was that you believe many people have depression and thus depression and racism are the same. They are not because one is a cause and one is a factor. You have to use reading compression.




Nope. I clearly said this "Going to bet it was mental health." Unless you think that someone making a bet is someone who is making an absolute statement of fact instead of opinion, then I am going to assume you just forgot what I actually said.

I also said this, "What I am saying is that his motivations are likely due to his mental health vs just his racist beliefs."

Notice how I am not stating anything as absolute fact. I pointed out where I first thought there might be a mental health issue. I then quoted the article from VG where the guy said he was going to the car that was not there. That sounds like he was way out of it. I still dont know enough to say it was x% mental health, but what I did say was that people are going to focus on the racist part above all else. That so far has been correct.
I don't agree with your premise that one is a cause and one is a factor. They are both factors.

Of course you are correct that people are going to focus on the racist aspect of an incident that was clearly racist.

Let me ask you this, how likely do you think it is that he would have shot all these people if he wasn't racist at all?

EDIT: I see you already said he likely wouldn't have killed these particular people had he not been racist. What other reason do you think would have triggered this type of incident?
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
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898
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I don't agree with your premise that one is a cause and one is a factor. They are both factors.

Of course you are correct that people are going to focus on the racist aspect of an incident that was clearly racist.

Let me ask you this, how likely do you think it is that he would have shot all these people if he wasn't racist at all?

EDIT: I see you already said he likely wouldn't have killed these particular people had he not been racist. What other reason do you think would have triggered this type of incident?

I dont know what triggered him. It could be many things. I bet that you wont find many articles if any that ask that question though. What you will likely find is a bunch of articles saying we need to restrict guns and deal with racism. Both of which I am for depending on what that means, but you are not likely to find anything on mental health. This country sure seems to want to avoid that topic. It saddens me greatly that we see things like sandy hook and the only thing that comes of it is angry rhetoric. Mental health seems like an elephant the size of the moon that nobody seems to talk about.
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
35,203
28,218
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I dont know what triggered him. It could be many things. I bet that you wont find many articles if any that ask that question though. What you will likely find is a bunch of articles saying we need to restrict guns and deal with racism. Both of which I am for depending on what that means, but you are not likely to find anything on mental health. This country sure seems to want to avoid that topic. It saddens me greatly that we see things like sandy hook and the only thing that comes of it is angry rhetoric. Mental health seems like an elephant the size of the moon that nobody seems to talk about.
You won't see many articles asking that question because it seems pretty clear to me that what triggered it was seeing some minorities and then hearing that they don't speak English very well. I also highly doubt that the guy was perfectly mentally stable a month or even a year ago.
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
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898
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You won't see many articles asking that question because it seems pretty clear to me that what triggered it was seeing some minorities and then hearing that they don't speak English very well. I also highly doubt that the guy was perfectly mentally stable a month or even a year ago.

http://www.jsonline.com/news/milwau...-demons-witchcraft-b99688262z1-372249111.html

This should clear up a lot of things.

Eight years ago, Dan J. Popp told Greenfield police he sensed demons and witchcraft in his mother's house, and he believed unknown people were plotting to murder him. Officers took Popp to Milwaukee County's Mental Health Complex on an emergency detention.

Popp's attorney, Christopher Hartley, has raised the question of his mental competency, telling reporters after a court hearing last week that Popp had spent time at the mental health complex and was treated by the U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs for mental health issues. A judge has ordered a compentency evaluation, which is due back next month.

The incident on Feb. 14, 2008, began when Popp called 911 to report his Bushmaster assault rifle as stolen.

When Greenfield police arrived about 6:15 p.m., Popp was gone, but his mother was still at the house. She told officers her son hadn't been acting like himself.

He used to be laid back, easygoing and talkative, she told the officers, but since she had a heart operation in September 2007, he had become argumentative and withdrawn, according to the police report.

She told an officer her son's behavior "has been getting worse and worse and increasingly frightening," according to the report. Within the past two months, he had become paranoid, thinking people were "out to get him or kill him" and had begun to drink heavily.

His mother told officers she wasn't sure, but believed he drank about one bottle of vodka a day. Over the previous few weeks she smelled strange odors from his bedroom and suspected he was using drugs.

Popp had started to follow his mother constantly, believing she was part of a conspiracy against him. She admitted to police she had thought about calling them several times, but "was afraid of what (Popp) would do to her," the report said.

His mother also said Popp believed another resident of the house — a friend of his mother — was gay and trying to kill him.

There is lots more.

Now, you tell me. Is this mainly about mental health, or racism. It sure seems to me that racism was the least of the issue here.
 

Zaap

Diamond Member
Jun 12, 2008
7,162
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One thing is for sure... if there's a conclusion to be jumped to without all the facts... some sure do jump to them.

Bonehead awards to all the leftloon nitwits that tried to blame Trump for this. Fuck some people are morons through and through. I'm no fan of any of the candidates in this current circus... but the pea-brained attempts to blame litterally *everything* on whoever it is people have been programmed to demonize... sheesh.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
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Wait, ignorant and crazy people dont say blow up federal buildings in Oklahoma? They dont shoot an doctor who preforms abortions while the doctor is in church?

Mentally ill people kill people. Being a racist alone (type of ignorance) does not drive the vast majority to do murder. Racism is a factor not a cause. Mental illness is a cause.

you realize how often you can turn around your final statement and make racism the cause, right? mental illness just being a factor? You make a piss-poor argument here.

it's racism. It's not difficult or shameful to admit that this racist shitburger killed people because he is racist.

why the fuck is that a problem for you?
 

Zaap

Diamond Member
Jun 12, 2008
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without question.

This guy in the story is most likely a Trump supporter. Is that also a condition of his "mental health," his racism, or is outright ignorance?

Bonehead award.

Bonus for doubling down!
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
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898
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you realize how often you can turn around your final statement and make racism the cause, right? mental illness just being a factor? You make a piss-poor argument here.

it's racism. It's not difficult or shameful to admit that this racist shitburger killed people because he is racist.

why the fuck is that a problem for you?

Racism is the belief that some races are worse than inferior to others. We dont go around killing animals for the sake of being inferior, we kill them because it gives us something else. You dont kill a chicken to just kill a chicken, you it to eat it. A racist on the most extreme side will just look down upon other races. Now, racists are humans and thus complex, so they have other beliefs too. You can have an angry racist who feels that a group is doing x on top of being inferior.

If that anger builds enough, they may lash out at one of the groups they dont like. That racism is a factor in the choice of who the person attacked, but not a cause. The cause was the anger. What drove that anger is likely complex as well.

This guy has had years of mental issues. If you looked at the link I posted earlier you will see all the problems he had. The guy was going off the deep end for a while. His racist beliefs is what made him target those people vs others, but likely he was going to hurt someone eventually even if he were not a racist.

So, if he were likely to hurt people racist or not, then racism is not the cause of the murder, its a cause for the choice of who to murder, but not the drive to murder.

This thread has many posts by me, and if you want to isolate just one to say my argument is weak, that is up to you. I have supported each statement I have made, or at the very least given a good effort. I do not dodge anyone on this forum ever.

The simple fact is this. The guy had years of mental issues. He had his guns taken away once before because he was thought to be dangerous. His mother feared turning him in before because she feared him hurting her. Those things had nothing to do with racism, but were due to his mental health. What irritates me is that people just want to dismiss this as a racist thing, when clearly mental issues played a massive role here. All I said to start this was that I bet this guy had the medical emergency over mental issues the day before, and that people would focus mainly on race over that.

I think the reason people don't like to look at mental health in these types of cases, is because they think it absolves the person and if the person is absolved then they should not be punished fully if at all.

If I were driving on the highway and I had a sudden unknown health issue that caused me to pass out and cause an accident that killed someone, almost nobody would say I should go to jail if I did nothing to trigger it. If I were wasted from drinking all night and did the same thing and killed someone, they would all call for jail time. People want punishment and justice, and if this is labeled as mental health, then how can you call for punishment for someone who was sick and could not stop themselves?
 

Zaap

Diamond Member
Jun 12, 2008
7,162
424
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Oh look, it's zaap. how cute.

Maybe no one will notice you're so programmed to demonize the candidate the leftloon bandwagon you're riding insists you do.... that you stupidly tried to make this another blame Trump thread without getting the facts now your stuck backpedaling.

Too late.
 
Feb 16, 2005
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I'm not sure why it's difficult for some people to admit that this was caused by racism. It's pretty clear it was. Racism might someday be considered a mental illness, but for now it's just being an ignorant asshole.

with the occasional penchant for doing bodily harm or worse.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
173
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So why did he target the people he killed? Of course his mental state is part of the equation, but why kill hispanics/spanish speaking folks? Should I change the title to Raging Racist w/Mental Health Problems Kills 3?

Weren't the others Vietnamese?

I'm reminded of a thread not too long ago. It was the guy that shot and killed a preacher. He had published a large manifesto online about Lizard people. I'd wait to see if this guy isn't similarly nutty.

Just getting up one day and deciding to kill people who don't speak English is pretty damn weird. One victim was a black guy, the other two looked to be Vietnamese. If he went on a rampage killing Black people I could see the racism charge (and possibly mental as well). His problem doesn't seem to be race, it's language oriented which seems possibly xenophobic.

But the way he responded to the police when they arrested him indicates to this amateur psychologist that he's delusional. Heck, it seems he's unaware of what he's done.

I'm just saying I'd wait. AT is always jumping the gun.

Fern
 
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jackstar7

Lifer
Jun 26, 2009
11,679
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Just some further thinking that follows mine that I discovered:

Are All Murderers Mentally Ill?

I can't say I'm shocked to see other people had my idea before me, as I am pretty dumb, but this piece expands well on my ideas.

Dismiss or enjoy at your leisure.
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
Weren't the others Vietnamese?

I'm reminded of a thread not too long ago. It was the guy that shot and killed a preacher. He had published a large manifesto online about Lizard people. I'd wait to see if this guy isn't similarly nutty.

Just getting up one day and deciding to kill people who don't speak English is pretty damn weird. One victim was a black guy, the other two looked to be Vietnamese. If he went on a rampage killing Black people I could see the racism charge (and possibly mental as well). His problem doesn't seem to be race, it's language oriented which seems possibly xenophobic.

But the way he responded to the police when they arrested him indicates to this amateur psychologist that he's delusional. Heck, it seems he's unaware of what he's done.

I'm just saying I'd wait. AT is always jumping the gun.

Fern

They were Hmong. Their people originated in China until they were driven out. They lived in the mountains of Laos for a while. The Chinese sent armies to attack them, and the Hmong fought them so hard that the Chinese said fuck'em. There was this one time when they killed all the women and children in a village so they would have nothing to lose in battle. They were crazy ass good fighters though. Helped the US when we were doing shit there.

They were given refugee status and many were brought to the US. They were at first spread out, but eventually settled in 2 main places in the US. One of which I lived in called Merced.
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
Just some further thinking that follows mine that I discovered:

Are All Murderers Mentally Ill?

I can't say I'm shocked to see other people had my idea before me, as I am pretty dumb, but this piece expands well on my ideas.

Dismiss or enjoy at your leisure.

FYI, you could have given some comment about how this supports you.

First, you have a judge who reversed his stance because he agrees with you. He is not a Dr. though so not much that I care.

Next you have a defense attorney who seems to agree with you, but again, not a professional so meh.

Then, you have an actual Dr. who did studies where they found 60-80% of the people who were murderers had abuse in their past, but did not say that all murderers had mental illness.

Then, you had another Dr. who said that the 60-80% was way off, and was actually about 10%.

Kuper said that in a study, they found 90% of those on death row had mental illness. The issue here is that the article does not link the research, so we are left to take the word of the writer. Could there have been a misunderstanding, well who knows.

So yeah, I will dismiss all of this, because the majority of it meant nothing, and the one part that could have meant something has nothing to back it up.

Kudos.