If you want a decent job, fine arts degrees are useless

[Eug]

Make posters and dresses.

Not sure if you understood or not (as my sarcasm detector may be broken), but the post was in response to Broheim's, hence the "^^^".

 

[thecoolnessrune]

You must be kidding.

It was widely known--not thought, but known--at my college that people who were lazy and/or less intelligent got arts degrees. Was never up for debate.

I once passed a course with a semi-decent grade by going to TWO classes over the entire semester and then pouring over a friend's notes before the final. That is simply impossible for a real course, say in chemistry or calculus.

The core credits needed for a science degree involve calculus vs, say, sociology 101.

My Vietnamese friend aced her first 2 calc courses by showing up for class and taking the tests more or less.

It's about what you know before-hand. Has nothing to do with the course itself.

You do your argument a disservice by coming up with such a mundane comparison.

 

[sze5003]

Not sure if you understood or not (as my sarcasm detector may be broken), but the post was in response to Broheim's, hence the "^^^".

Yeah I knew that. It's just what I see my friends doing who got these fine arts degrees. One of them miraculously got a job as a web designer after I helped her out with a web page.

 

[Eug]

My Vietnamese friend aced her first 2 calc courses by showing up for class and taking the tests more or less.

It's about what you know before-hand. Has nothing to do with the course itself.

You do your argument a disservice by coming up with such a mundane comparison.

Agreed, but it's also the type of student and if that student had the knack for that topic.

I've done well in one or two science classes doing little studying except the weekend before the exam. However, I would have failed miserably had I tried that for English lit. English was never my best class. Plus in English lit you actually have to read the material, and it would be hard to read and remember all of it in a weekend. Also, regarding your comment about prior knowledge, as I've said before I never understood any of the religious references beforehand, so I think I was at a disadvantage in English lit compared to those who grew up in Christian homes.

 

[Svnla]

From the OP's chart, Business is better than Engineer? <shocking from all the bashing of biz degrees in this forum>

<<---is making plan to head up North, eh?

 

[DrPizza]

I'm thinking that it's not the degree itself and more about the student. I've heard it said many times that, "oh, I didn't know what I wanted to do, so I got a BA in psychology or sociology, just because I wanted to have a degree".

Teachers and parents keep telling you to go to college. You're 17, young, dumb, and naive as shit, then you're supposedly forced to choose what to do for the rest of your life. Oh, and all your friends are going, so like, you totally have to go too.

I chose engineering, luckily, because my friend chose it in high school and NOT going to college was never an option. Two degrees later and I'm finally thinking hard about what I want to do with the rest of my life -- not easy with a fully biologically developed brain.

<---- Not THIS teacher. I point out to students that there are a lot of trades where if you're willing to put in some effort, you can make great money, immediately after high school. And, I point out that "fine arts are a great hobby; if you have the time, minor it in. It's relatively rare that anyone with a degree earns a great income in that field - and that job isn't based on merit. It's based on luck & who you know." I had a girl whose parents, during her sophomore year, asked me to talk her out of going into our tech program (autobody, construction, *graphic design?*) for the graphic design program. It was what she wanted to do at the time. I pointed out that the people who took that route went on to getting the entry level jobs. The people who took a rigorous course load in high school and got a bachelor's or even an associate's degree in that field were far more likely than someone who took it at BOCES to earn a good salary. She ended up being the valedictorian - wouldn't have been able to had she skipped out on college courses (like AP courses) which are weighted higher. And, after taking physics, she completely changed her mind - went physics and engineering, then switched to physics and mathematics. Currently getting master's in physics, with a 4.0 undergrad dual major. Graphic design. And last year, after a student teacher art teacher tried convincing another student that she was a natural at making pottery & should major in fine arts, her mother came to me and asked if I'd use my influence to encourage her to choose a "useful major." That one was easy - she has a good head on her shoulders. "I know, I'd enjoy it, but I wouldn't be happy if I couldn't afford a house."

 

[Broheim]

^^^ What do they do for fine arts?

some of them the government wont even pay for, some of them you have be incredibly skilled and lucky to get into, others are simply so unpopular they have a hard time filling up even the smallest of class rooms so no regulation is really needed there.

we're taught basically from the sixth grade to keep the job market in mind, so most are very pragmatic about choosing a degree, basically "choose something you like but will also get you hired". the extremely high income equality and the law of jante (social norm here in Scandinavia that basically says "you are not better than everybody else, you are not a special little snowflake") means that as long as you can get hired afterwards nobody really cares which degree you have. So it easier for the government to guide people into fields with high demand.

sometimes it goes a bit wrong though, there was a shortage of nurses a while ago so we started training lots of them, but now some have trouble finding employment, luckily there is a shortage in Norway so they pay a premium for danish healthcare personnel (it's easy for Danes to live in Norway because Norwegians are basically just Danes with a funny accent, silly number system and likes mountains).

 

[Eug]

<---- Not THIS teacher. I point out to students that there are a lot of trades where if you're willing to put in some effort, you can make great money, immediately after high school. And, I point out that "fine arts are a great hobby; if you have the time, minor it in. It's relatively rare that anyone with a degree earns a great income in that field - and that job isn't based on merit. It's based on luck & who you know." I had a girl whose parents, during her sophomore year, asked me to talk her out of going into our tech program (autobody, construction, *graphic design?*) for the graphic design program. It was what she wanted to do at the time. I pointed out that the people who took that route went on to getting the entry level jobs. The people who took a rigorous course load in high school and got a bachelor's or even an associate's degree in that field were far more likely than someone who took it at BOCES to earn a good salary. She ended up being the valedictorian - wouldn't have been able to had she skipped out on college courses (like AP courses) which are weighted higher. And, after taking physics, she completely changed her mind - went physics and engineering, then switched to physics and mathematics. Currently getting master's in physics, with a 4.0 undergrad dual major. Graphic design. And last year, after a student teacher art teacher tried convincing another student that she was a natural at making pottery & should major in fine arts, her mother came to me and asked if I'd use my influence to encourage her to choose a "useful major." That one was easy - she has a good head on her shoulders. "I know, I'd enjoy it, but I wouldn't be happy if I couldn't afford a house."

This is just a one off, but... Interestingly, I know someone who became a lawyer, and made good money, but hated it. Quit and became a web designer.

some of them the government wont even pay for, some of them you have be incredibly skilled and lucky to get into, others are simply so unpopular they have a hard time filling up even the smallest of class rooms so no regulation is really needed there.

we're taught basically from the sixth grade to keep the job market in mind, so most are very pragmatic about choosing a degree, basically "choose something you like but will also get you hired". the extremely high income equality and the law of jante (social norm here in Scandinavia that basically says "you are not better than everybody else, you are not a special little snowflake") means that as long as you can get hired afterwards nobody really cares which degree you have. So it easier for the government to guide people into fields with high demand.

sometimes it goes a bit wrong though, there was a shortage of nurses a while ago so we started training lots of them, but now some have trouble finding employment, luckily there is a shortage in Norway so they pay a premium for danish healthcare personnel (it's easy for Danes to live in Norway because Norwegians are basically just Danes with a funny accent, silly number system and likes mountains).

We have surveys in Canada that high school students take in school that give ideas about what potential job prospects there are depending upon personal preferences, and the like. The counsellors then advise the students about requirements, potential income, etc.

I find the surveys totally useless though. I think what would be more useful would be to have job fairs for students, so they could talk to real people working in those fields.

As for nurses, I suspect it's like Canada in that the numbers trained are somewhat reactionary. There is a lag of many years between needs and trained nurses, so they don't increase nursing student spots soon enough to prepare for a shortage, and they don't decrease nursing student spots soon enough either to prepare for a glut.

 

[DrPizza]

some of them the government wont even pay for, some of them you have be incredibly skilled and lucky to get into, others are simply so unpopular they have a hard time filling up even the smallest of class rooms so no regulation is really needed there.

we're taught basically from the sixth grade to keep the job market in mind, so most are very pragmatic about choosing a degree, basically "choose something you like but will also get you hired". the extremely high income equality and the law of jante (social norm here in Scandinavia that basically says "you are not better than everybody else, you are not a special little snowflake") means that as long as you can get hired afterwards nobody really cares which degree you have. So it easier for the government to guide people into fields with high demand.

sometimes it goes a bit wrong though, there was a shortage of nurses a while ago so we started training lots of them, but now some have trouble finding employment, luckily there is a shortage in Norway so they pay a premium for danish healthcare personnel (it's easy for Danes to live in Norway because Norwegians are basically just Danes with a funny accent, silly number system and likes mountains).

If only we were smart about it like you guys. Instead, here, everyone's a special little snowflake. And we have a bit too much of, "how dare you discourage little Johnny. We can't hurt the precious little snowflakes' feelings by helping some of them who set unrealistic goals for themselves." I'm bothered by two things: kids who set goals way below where they should, and seeing the adults in their lives completely accept those goals without encouraging them to strive for more. And, kids who set goals way above where they should be, and seeing the adults in their lives afraid of helping them face reality.

 

[Broheim]

If only we were smart about it like you guys. Instead, here, everyone's a special little snowflake. And we have a bit too much of, "how dare you discourage little Johnny. We can't hurt the precious little snowflakes' feelings by helping some of them who set unrealistic goals for themselves." I'm bothered by two things: kids who set goals way below where they should, and seeing the adults in their lives completely accept those goals without encouraging them to strive for more. And, kids who set goals way above where they should be, and seeing the adults in their lives afraid of helping them face reality.

I think we do alright here as far as setting realistic life goals for kids. It's the norm that you have the same teachers from 1st grade until 9th grade -when you graduate primary school- so they know you very well, your strengths/weaknesses and such, and they actually have a say in where your life goes from there. They'll act as your guidance counselors (we have dedicated ones too, but your teachers obviously know you best) and help you and your parents make a decision on which path to take after primary school based on both academic and personal traits, I've never met a teacher that was afraid to tell you when you were going to waste your time or your life on something. they actually had to OK you going to one of the three types of high schools or if you were gonna go to trade school or HG (think of that as retail oriented trade school).

of course all of this can't stop a bad teacher from helping you make the wrong choices but I feel over all the system works.

 

[johnjohn320]

Ah yes, another thread where all the Anandtechers working in IT get all smug to the rest of the society.

Yeah, working in the arts is tougher than a lot of other industries. The people working in the arts are not oblivious to that fact. Doesn't mean it's impossible-you've just got to really, really want it, and be willing to do an incredible amount of hard work to get there. And, you have to put up with condescending jerks (many examples in this thread) who won't appreciate what you do and talk about how you should get a "real job" like they have...

For the record, I'm a professional classical pianist. Yes, I have degrees from conservatories and universities in piano performance. And I'm making a perfectly decent living. For awhile, I considered other fields, because the one I chose is so fiercely difficult and competitive. I thought about pursuing fields where being mediocre was still almost guaranteed to be good enough to land stable employment. I'm so, so glad I stuck it out. I love what I do, and the impact I hopefully have on some of the lives around me.

 

[zinfamous]

You must be kidding.

It was widely known--not thought, but known--at my college that people who were lazy and/or less intelligent got arts degrees. Was never up for debate.

I once passed a course with a semi-decent grade by going to TWO classes over the entire semester and then pouring over a friend's notes before the final. That is simply impossible for a real course, say in chemistry or calculus.

The core credits needed for a science degree involve calculus vs, say, sociology 101.

so..all classes in a humanities degree are sociology 101? sounds like you're trying to stack comparisons in one direction...

Humanities degrees certainly aren't easy--in my experience, most people simply can't write, largely because they hate it with unbridled passion. I find it easy and engaging, which is why I tacked on an English degree. Do I use it? Not really, but I'd rather be sitting on my ass writing all day instead of sitting in a lab pipetting shit all day.

I certainly spent far more of my time and energy with the English degree--about 4 essays per week over the last 2 years of college--than I did with my mo bio and biochem classes needed for my Bio degree.

Bio 101 is easy as hell, Chem 101 is pretty easy if you are so inclined. I saw plenty of people struggle and curse through the simplest intro English and writing courses with skills that they should have mastered early in High School.

I should also add that it is widely known--WIDELY KNOWN--that the dumbest mouth breathers on our campus that coasted through college with essentially zero effort were "business majors."

btw...what the fuck is a business degree? Arent' you wasting your time and money on school when you should be out...starting your damn business?

 

[Mixolydian]

If only we were smart about it like you guys. Instead, here, everyone's a special little snowflake. And we have a bit too much of, "how dare you discourage little Johnny. We can't hurt the precious little snowflakes' feelings by helping some of them who set unrealistic goals for themselves." I'm bothered by two things: kids who set goals way below where they should, and seeing the adults in their lives completely accept those goals without encouraging them to strive for more. And, kids who set goals way above where they should be, and seeing the adults in their lives afraid of helping them face reality.

My mommy says I'm special.

 

[Broheim]

Ah yes, another thread where all the Anandtechers working in IT get all smug to the rest of the society.

Yeah, working in the arts is tougher than a lot of other industries. The people in working in the arts are not oblivious to that fact. Doesn't mean it's impossible-you've just got to really, really want it, and be willing to do an incredible amount of hard work to get there. And, you have to put up with condescending jerks (many examples in this thread) who won't appreciate what you do and talk about how you should get a "real job" like they have...

For the record, I'm a professional classical pianist. Yes, I have degrees from conservatories and universities in piano performance. And I'm making a perfectly decent living. For awhile, I considered other fields, because the one I chose is so fiercely difficult and competitive. I thought about pursuing fields where being mediocre was still almost guaranteed to be good enough to land stable employment. I'm so, so glad I stuck it out. I love what I do, and the impact I hopefully have on some of the lives around me.

it's great it has worked out for you, and it sounds like you worked very hard to get to where you are, I'm certainly not going to take away any pride you have in how hard you worked.

But...

you cannot argue the fact that there are shitloads of people out there who got a worthless (yet expensive) degree just because they were never told to stop and think about their job prospects just for a second. these days you can hardly go on the internet without tripping over sob stories from people with doctorates in underwater basketweaving, telling everybody how unfair it is that they made a shitty choice and can't get a job in their useless profession.

not to diminish what you you do in any way, but if we ran out of classical pianists (tihi penists) the world would keep turning, but if we ran out of engineers we'd all be fucked. You say yourself that your field is fiercely competitive which tells me there's no labor shortage, and I imagine the demand isn't going to grow in the future. So perhaps it's best to tell kids to look into other fields and then play piano on their own time.

 

[zinfamous]

Oh wait, your idea of "art funding" is most likely the government doling out (stolen) money to create "art" like this.

OMG I are so scurred! RAGE!!!!!!!!

a feminist scientist? OMG how ebulllll. wait, she "believes" in climate change? THAT CAN'T BE RIGHT?!!!

 

[Eug]

I too know someone who is a gainfully employed classical pianist, and who has some albums out. But the majority of music majors I've known don't work in music. That's basically the gist of the report.

BTW, that reminds me of a mildly amusing story. A friend of mine was at a party and one drunk weird friend of a friend there was just hangin' out and suddenly blurted out "THREE HIT SONGS!". Everyone turned to look and he explained that all you would need is three hit songs as a musician and then you'd likely be set for life. Then he went back to drinking.

You know, to a certain extent he may be right, but just how many people get three hit songs? Or a single hit novel? Hell, back in school I even got one of my drawings displayed in a show but I figured I wouldn't be making a living doing that sort of thing. It's fine to encourage people, but sometimes parents and teachers need to emphasize practicality and realistic goals too. Hard to do though, as it's a fine balance to do that without sounding negative.

 

[zinfamous]

Yeah, a friend of a friend is an actress, and now has made it big and is on prime time TV. But that is the exception, not the rule.

For my kid I think I will play it by ear, and not force her to become a doctor or engineer or whatever, but will honestly tell her of the reality of some choices. If she's set on becoming a singer for example, she should be prepared to be working dingy clubs for low pay for a very long time, instead of expecting she'll be a top 10 radio hit with a platinum album at age 23.

I do know a lot of people with arts degrees that have gone onto bigger and better things not related to their degree though. Certain types of employers won't even look at you if you don't have a degree, but a humanities degree is fine even if it's not going to be directly related to the job. Depends on the position.

that's the thing--the cube robots on AT don't really understand the amount of effort and balls it actually takes to make something like that work.

Sure, the vast majority of self-described actors and writers and artists or whatever are going to be waiting tables and bartending and never break through to what they want to do, but they also wouldn't be caught dead working in a cube like the snickering plebs around here that just don't get it.

The ability to succeed in that line of work is certainly far more difficult than getting an engineering degree that almost guarantees a very decent minimum start--and if you want to keep that life aimed in a standard trajectory at working in cubes and doing the straight life, and encouraging others to work in similar cubes because "Well look at me and how perfect my life is!" then great; the path is pretty much well laid out for you--so I can see that it is difficult for the standard ATOTer to ever really understand that.

A lot of you think this is coasting through easy because you take a single required intro class in the humanities that you pretty much hate, float through with a C because that's all you need to do and simply don't care that you actually do have to work your ass off, with what most of us call "thinking" to get better than a C.

You also have to have far larger stones than any IT/engineer cube troll, because that future is very much uncertain--nothing is really laid out for you and it's one of the few areas where you honestly do earn your success, if you ever get there.

All of that being said: do I think it's wise for a student to take on thousands and thousands of dollars of debt to get an Art History degree? lolno, I do not.

 

[zinfamous]

Very true I'm sometimes jealous of the Biology majors with easy 4.0's. I guess all that matters is having a plan from the start that works.

yes, so very very easy. I guess Biochem is just a cakewalk, eh?

ffs.

 

[Eug]

OTOH, when I took the language courses in university I much preferred hanging around the arts department lounges because I couldn't stand being around some of the biology and chem students with their one track minds fighting hard with each other to get into med school.

 

[foghorn67]

It was well know that getting a degree in engineering, medicine, science, physics, or the like was not for everyone.
The rest went to a trade school and earned an honest living. If that tradesman was entrepreneurial, he could be flush with cash as well.

 

[zinfamous]

OTOH, when I took the language courses in university I much preferred hanging around the arts department lounges because I couldn't stand being around some of the biology and chem students with their one track minds fighting hard with each other to get into med school.

"Pre-med" students are, by far, the worst That's another one of those weird nonsensical majors (and sometimes a degree?) that doesn't do you much good when compared to the students that you would be competing with.

If you want to get into Med school--you're generally better off majoring in Micro, P Chem, Biochem, Mo Bio, etc. Usually at least 2 of those if your school allows it. ...3 if you can stand it

The pre med curriculum is just too general in my experience, and one should probably also avoid Biology if that is where they want to go. Also to general and while I think you could still get in to med school, those degrees leave you at a disadvantage for admittance, as well as knowledge when you start.

 

[Eug]

There is no "pre-med" degree in Canadian schools AFAIK. So they major in stuff like biology or biochemistry or microbiology or something like that (although it's not a requirement to be a life sciences major to get into med school), although I think some may have a general "life sciences" degree I'm not sure.

Hence I'd guess the majority of biology majors in Canada are aiming to medical school or dental school.

However, I disagree that having a double major or whatever actually helps you. As mentioned, more important are the grades, and it can be easier to get good grades if you don't max out all your courses with tough super sub-specialized science classes. Plus, if you already know what you want for your career path, and that career path is something like dental school, you may as well expand your horizons a bit during undergrad with something like art history or whatever. Ironically, it will might actually be more useful to you later on in life than the life cycle of the South African horsefly.

 

[johnjohn320]

it's great it has worked out for you, and it sounds like you worked very hard to get to where you are, I'm certainly not going to take away any pride you have in how hard you worked.

But...

you cannot argue the fact that there are shitloads of people out there who got a worthless (yet expensive) degree just because they were never told to stop and think about their job prospects just for a second. these days you can hardly go on the internet without tripping over sob stories from people with doctorates in underwater basketweaving, telling everybody how unfair it is that they made a shitty choice and can't get a job in their useless profession.

not to diminish what you you do in any way, but if we ran out of classical pianists (tihi penists) the world would keep turning, but if we ran out of engineers we'd all be fucked. You say yourself that your field is fiercely competitive which tells me there's no labor shortage, and I imagine the demand isn't going to grow in the future. So perhaps it's best to tell kids to look into other fields and then play piano on their own time.

I love how you say "not to diminish what you do in any way" and then turn right around and diminish it. We need engineers, but not pianists, you tell me. Their (your?) job is worth more to society than mine. We could get into a big discussion about it (http://www.bostonconservatory.edu/music/karl-paulnack-welcome-address is a decent place to start), but in short, the quote from Winston Churchill, when asked to de-fund arts programming in support of the war effort, speaks volumes: "then what are we fighting for?" There's a lot more to life than choosing the most straightforward, practical path, then working a job you may or may not hate for 40-50 years because it "pays the bills" and then dying. And bear in mind, folks, without societal (and indeed governmental and other institutional) support, we would not have Bach, Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven, and a slew of others, not to mention the countless examples in literature, visual art, poetry, and architecture I could name.

As the son of an engineer and an accountant, the brother of one scientist and one teacher, the best friend of an electrical engineer, and coming from an extended family filled with doctors, lawyers, and also blue-collar workers, I can tell you that I have great respect for such professions. They work hard and produce a service for society, directly or indirectly. I am lucky in that that respect is returned to me. No one in my family has asked me "but when will you get a real job?" or "must be nice just to play piano all day instead of doing actual work." Those lovely quotes have come from strangers on airplanes asking me what I do for a living, or coworkers of my father's who have just met me, etc.

Bottom line, if you ask me, is that everyone has something to contribute, and we should allow people to contribute what they are best at. My best friend told me "my job is to streamline certain processes to save a company a lot of money. And I'm good at it. You're good at playing beautiful music that people pay money to listen to." Haydn was probably perfectly capable of shoveling coal or building houses, but thankfully the aristocracy of Esterhazy recognized his musical gifts and allowed him to contribute to the world in that way. Albert Einstein could play the violin quite well and is even quoted as saying it would have been his next choice as profession, but he was a far more gifted physicist and we're all grateful that he was allowed to pursue his career in that field.

Now, of course there are people who have no business trying to work in such fields who pursue studies in those fields anyway. Don't worry-the competitiveness I mentioned will weed most of them out pretty quickly. But enough thumbing your noses to people who are good enough in an artistic field to make a living at it.