Don't think of it as a religion with all the answers, there ARE some unanswered questions that remain...that doesn't make the theory false, just, if you'll pardon the pun, evolving.
Don't think of it as a religion with all the answers, there ARE some unanswered questions that remain...that doesn't make the theory false, just, if you'll pardon the pun, evolving.
Techs, this is just flame bait unless you at least post the comparable number for democrats. If its 68/10 it's an interesting discussion. If its 68/68 this is just trolling.
Answering my own question, its 68/40. The full break down is available here
"It appears that these candidates are, in some ways, "preaching to the choir" in terms of addressing their own party's constituents -- the group that matters when it comes to the GOP primaries. Republicans are much more likely to be religious and attend church than independents or Democrats in general. Therefore, it comes as no great surprise to find that Republicans are also significantly more likely not to believe in evolution than are independents and Democrats."
And before someone bothers to ask, I believe in evolution.
Average human heights continue to be taller century after century, thats a pretty reasonable example of more 'seeable' pattern...
Gunslinger08
Lifer
- Nov 18, 2001
- 13,234
- 2
- 81
Rainsford already answered your questions, but I'm not even talking about evolution as the origin of man.
Evolution itself isn't something that should even be arguable. It's just plain logical that the members of a species better suited to their environment will live longer and therefore produce more offspring. Can people really not understand this, just by looking around them? Why do they think we have variation in genetic traits between geographically separated races? Especially when you consider the Christian belief that we all came from Adam and Eve (and later, Noah and his descendants). Sometimes I question whether people even think about the beliefs they hold.
The definition of evolution has evolutionized. Did the micoprocessor evolutionize? You could probably say it did. But it was created.
Christians are not having sex with their neighbor's hot wife because of fear of damnation. If they were to admit that evolution is real they'd be kicking themselves in the ass for missing out.
That's true but I don't think that's a good example as most of that has to do with living conditions and nutrition.
A better example would be to cite evidence of our past, namely things like our wisdom teeth and the appendix. These are the legacies of our past which are now obsolete features. Perhaps in a few thousand more years these will be gone, but then again maybe not.
I don't see the human race evolving anymore period, we don't need to adapt to our environment, we adapt our environment to us.
One need look no further than the Galapagos islands, which is what started everything in the first place. This is evolution in a fishbowl. El Nino, volcanic eruptions and so forth whittle down the populations of the native species every so often, leaving only those best adapted to survive to carry on the species. This is survival of the fittest in it's most rudimentary form and a good example of why we don't have a legacy of intermittent species still living on the planet.
Doc Savage Fan
Lifer
- Nov 30, 2006
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FYI, the theory of evolution does not preclude the existence of God and vice-versa. This misunderstanding is common among seculatists and Chrisitans alike...a testament to the diversity of ignorance.
Hehe, I have been in evolution threads here since 1999 and think I have made that point at least that many times. But thank you for saying it one more time.
My first point is that the denial of evolution is strictly a Religious fundamentalist phenomena confined to a literalistic interpretation of religious texts and exists nowhere else than where faith in those texts prevails. My second point is that faith in such religious fundamentalist organizations is magnified and sustained by an irrational fear of hell inculcated into the practitioners as children. There are two ways to produce outwardly moral people. One is to foster the natural inborn love of the good and the other is through terror. Fundamentalist religion is terror, the abnegation of earthly delight in the hope of heaven. This is a mental illness. Self hate centuries ago insured there would be damn few who ever found real love through religion.
theeedude
Lifer
- Feb 5, 2006
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Evolution is a theory the way gravitational theory is. We may not know what exactly causes the force of gravity, but we see it at work every day. Same thing is true for evolution. It's an ongoing process that is observed every day. Bacteria antibiotic resistance is a perfect example. A drug kills all the bacteria except one in several million that has a mutation that blocks the drug from working. Then, those few mutants reproduce and infection returns, this time with the resistant mutant being a dominant form. That's evolution happening inside the human body.
I have yet to see something created out of vacuum, but even if you believe that initially there was an act of creation, denying evolution is simply being out of touch with reality.
Doc Savage Fan
Lifer
- Nov 30, 2006
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I think you're painting with very a wide brush here...this is more complicated than what meets the eye. Too often secularists stereotype Christians as "Religious fundamentalists" and then associate them with every form of evil imaginable such as the Spanish Inquisition, Salem witch trials, gay bashing, etc. Unfortunately, in doing so, they create a strawman that prevents them from ever gaining any meaningful insight into Christianity.
In regard to your first point...yes, some Christians believe in a strict literal interpretation of the creation story while many others (like me) believe that it is clearly an allegory.
In regard to your second point...this is what I was talking about in the first paragraph above...you've created your strawman. You can set him up and knock him down all day long and feel good about it if that's what floats your boat. But, I personally feel that it's intellectually dishonest to draw conclusions regarding Christianity (or any other group for that matter) based on magnifying the "perceived evils" of a very small subset and extrapolating it to the entire group. FYI, this is how racists and bigots rationalize their hate.
You are full of baloney. You might see some mutations in bacteria or a virus, but most mutations in humans end up being birth defects, or cancer, or lukemia, or whatever other disease you can think of. There is not enough evidence to support evolution of higher level animals.
Evolution and Natural selection are two different things.
Just because some animals died out, that does not mean they evolved into anything. Have you ever heard of Extinction? How come animals go extinct and they dont evolve into something else?
This all sounds like evolution described by you is oversimplification. Humans have bread horses for thousands of years to make some taller, stronger, smaller, or more sepecialized. However, they are still horses.
Evolution and Natural selection are two different things.
Just because some animals died out, that does not mean they evolved into anything. Have you ever heard of Extinction? How come animals go extinct and they dont evolve into something else?
This all sounds like evolution described by you is oversimplification. Humans have bread horses for thousands of years to make some taller, stronger, smaller, or more sepecialized. However, they are still horses.
Fern
Elite Member
- Sep 30, 2003
- 26,907
- 174
- 106
Yes, I see gravity at work everyday. In fact people have known that "things fall down, not up" long before the term "gravity" was coined. (Frankly, I don't think Sir Issac Newton discovered anything other than a "word", but that's another issue).
But I have never seen any new creature evolve. I have seen things change, but no evolution.
Gravity can be mathematically quantified. NASA does it all the time in the space program.
LMK when somebody can mathematically quantify evolution. I wann know when the next new creature is gonna pop into existance. I'd like to be there to observe it (like I observe gravity every day).
I think being aware of gravity is of the utmost importance, so much so it's intuitive. Lack of "respect" for gravity can get you killed. Not so with evolution AFAIK.
Fern
The fact that you even state 'things fall down not up' instead of bodies are attracted to each other based on their mass pretty much sums up your understanding of newtonian physics.
Not our fault you don't live long enough. Evolution happens over very long time periods. If your lucky you get to see 100 years or a 1 million year process. Once you realize that the best you can do is look at the fossil record and rebuild the line. A new 'xyz' animal isn't going to spontaneously appear on your front porch. This excuse as to why you don't believe in evolution is laughable.
I guess you only take penecilin then?
theeedude
Lifer
- Feb 5, 2006
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Extinction and natural selection are two sides of the same coin. What do you think natural selection selects for? Not going extinct. It doesn't matter that most mutations are harmful. Who cares? It only takes one in hundreds of million of bacteria to have a mutation for resistance for that bacteria to emerge as the dominant genotype in case of an extinction of all other bacteria due to antibiotic treatment. It's the extinction that makes room for the mutant to become the norm. Thousands of years are nothing, especially for slowly reproducing life forms like horses. We are talking about millions of years, where mutations cause species to diverge enough so that eventually, they no longer are the same species because they can't produce viable offspring.
theeedude
Lifer
- Feb 5, 2006
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If they change into something that didn't exist before, how is that not a new creature evolving?
Andrew Speaker would disagree with you on that one. If you ever get MRSA or other antibiotic resistant infection, lack of respect for evolution will get you killed as fast as lack of respect for gravity.
theeedude
Lifer
- Feb 5, 2006
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This one is for you, evolution deniers.
If this happens to you, put your health where your mouth is. Then you'll see natural selection in action up close and personal.
If this happens to you, put your health where your mouth is. Then you'll see natural selection in action up close and personal.
Cerpin Taxt
Lifer
- Feb 23, 2005
- 11,940
- 542
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There are two possibilities: either you do not understand what evolution is or you haven't been looking in the right places.
So what?
Evolution is quantified all the time. You should get yourself a subscription to the Oxford Journal of Bioinformatics
What's a "new creature" to you?
What relevance does that have?
The point I made was not intended to be rational. No amount of reason is going to affect people who believe because they fear damnation. But faith based on fear is a disease not something that raises you up. Do I think there are Christians who are Christians because the model themselves and try to walk like Christ? I do and I praise them to the highest. But I don't think they will be upset by what I said. A real Christian can lead the whole world without ever opening his mouth, in my opinion. He or she only need set an example. The accuracy of the Bible is important only to people who have no real faith. They MUST be right about everything or else they are TOTALLY WRONG. Such people are, of course dick heads and need a poke in the eye. But I probably feel this way because I'm not much of a Christian.
EDIT: Whoops, hit reply by accident.
Fern, are you seriously an evolutionary skeptic?
So you say that you've seen things change, but not evolve. How many changes does something require until you believe it is something new? There are many incidences where animals have become so different that they are no longer able to interbreed. (A quick check showed that Wallabies taken from Australia to Hawaii have become so different they can no longer breed with one another, thus are now two different species. Same goes for North American fire ants from their South American cousins)
As has been said countless times before on here, the evidence for evolution is simply overwhelming. It has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt. Not only is evolution heavily supported by the fossil record, and has made several predictions that have come true (DNA, etc), there has been no evidence that has contradicted it. Furthermore, there is no credible alternative theory for which the various pros and cons could be debated, or an alternative explanation that can be seriously considered.
Because of this, any reasonable person would look at these facts and judge that evolution is almost certainly correct. If you (or anyone else) is not doing so, then I think they should examine where their personal beliefs and their perception of reality are meeting, and see if they aren't doing themselves a disservice.
Cerpin Taxt
Lifer
- Feb 23, 2005
- 11,940
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So what? Evolution doesn't promise that everything will "get better" all the time.
What in the world is a "higher level animal"? What criteria determine which animals are "higher" than others, according to you?
Just like leaves and branches are two different things but part of the same plant, so are evolution and natural selection two different things but part of the same process.
No serious student of evolution would insist that a population of organisms must have evolved from the sole fact that said population went extinct.
All animals die. Only genetic traits endure. Evolution does not say that all genetic traits will endure forever, however. Some new traits will appear, and some old traits will disappear. As long as genes continue to propagate through time, evolution happens.
Yes! And they are still vertebrate mammals too, just like you! Even after millions of years of generations and inter-selections, nobody has ever bred a non-mammalian non-vertebrate from a mammalian vertebrate! All mammalian vertebrates are still mammalian vertebrates to this day! Surely evolution must be false!
And just like the first population of mammalian vertebrates, all present-day mammalian vertebrates are highly similar morphologically and can easily inter-breed among the entire mammalian vertebrate population.... right? The first populations of mammalian vertebrates didn't happen to diversify into subordinate orders, families, genus and species, did they? Like, maybe the mammalian vertebrate wolves and the mammalian vertebrate whales?
But the mammalian vertebrates were still mammalian vertebrates! Nobody will ever breed a non-mammalian non-vertebrate from a mammalian vertebrate.
So what? Evolution still happens, n00b.
Fern
Elite Member
- Sep 30, 2003
- 26,907
- 174
- 106
Basically, and honestly, I'm pretty much a sceptic of almost everything.
Moreover, arguing about evolution v. creationism seems a pretty big waste of time to me.
As you may know, or can guess, I'm a sceptic of (MM) global warming to, but at least that debate has some merit if only because we could possibly do something (effective) about it if true. I don't see what there is to actually "do" about creationism, evolution, some hybrid fo the two, or even theories about extraterestrial beings as the source of life here. Interesting to know? Yeah OK, but I can't imagine how it would change in the slightest what I plan on doing tomorrow or any day after that. (Some undeniable proof of creationism might blow the evo-folks minds, but not mine.)
I also don't understand this "rush to decide" which it is. What's wrong with keeping an open mind and entertaining different possibilities (I particularly enjoy daydreaming about the alien possibility - big sci-fi fan here
). I see no reason to "decide", and judging from many of the posts I've seen here the evolution folks demonstrate just as much "rabid faith" as the Young Earth Creationists types (of course, they'll hate me for saying so since they're usually anti-religeous types).Oh, see below.
--------------------------------------------
More interesting post (is this a discussion about "what is evolution"?):
Seems there are differing opinions of what one means when says "evolution".
From the link above:
AND
Now, while the above author dislikes the quoted definition of evolution, if you're gonna debate with creationists about the whole evo v. creation thingy there's no way around the fact that your debate is own terms with his "disliked" definition.
You wanna "expand" evolution to include something like a bacteriums (or other organism's) developed resistance to some medicine, fine. But that's it's a big whooping stretch to say that's got something relevant with creationism.
Let's face it, "evolution" is all over the media (last night watched some dinosaur show on the Hostory/Discovery Channel) and it's really all about a "new critter" evolving from something else. You wanna stretch the definition to something else less drastic, fine. But then lay off the creationists cuz you guys are talking apples & oranges
Fern
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