If you love Jesus post inside, if you don't, don't post inside.

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Baasha

Golden Member
Jan 4, 2010
1,989
20
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I just don't get specific religions. If you want to believe in some higher power that created the Universe, fine, I can see where you are coming from. The Universe IS a big and mysterious place and maybe some higher power did it etc etc. And its not like you're subscribing to a ideology or anything. Its a belief in the beginning of the Universe that no one has any evidence for and there is nothing about it that can cause people to act irrationally.

But why do people believe in specific Gods/Religions. Why Yaweh, Allah, Zeus, Horus, or anything. It just seems intellectually completely absurd. There is no evidence of one religion over another. Every single religion had their own holy texts, prophecies that were confirmed, or evidence of existance. I mean, George Carlin had it right, Sun worship probably makes the most sense. It gives light, warmth, and light to the world. And there is evidence for it. In the sky, giving you everything you need to live, No wonder older civilizations had Sun Gods.

The entire faith before evidence seems dumb. Its exactly the argument that makes people see things that isn't there. You Feel the presence of God. Well that Ghosthunter also feels the presence of a ghost RIGHT THERE next to the drafty window, the conspiracy theories sees proof of hidden explosives RIGHT THERE in the smoke of a collapsing building. Why do people convert to specific religions? Is it just because they were exposed to it? People say they turn to Christ after being saved from a accident or something. Wouldn't that person turn to Allah if they were in a muslim area, or Krishna if in an Indian area? I mean, do people really think through their choices in religions? Do people ever sit there and think about their belief systems?

I swear, no one has been able to answer this question to me in any way that made sense.

Your questions and assertions are by no means "easy" to answer. Yet, I will try to describe the way I understand these conundrums.

First and foremost, religion has different aspects to it; there is the dogmatic aspect and the cultural aspect. The dogmatic aspects, emphasized in the desert religions of the Abrahamics (Judaism, Christianity, Islam), form the core. The cultural aspect is purely ancillary in nature. Thus, you can see this dogmatism especially in Islam where no matter who you are or where you are, you have to pray in Arabic, face Mecca in Saudi Arabia, and read the Qu'ran in Arabic. There is no alternative. It doesn't matter whether you are culturally Chinese, Sudanese, or American. The other two Abrahamic religions also emphasize dogma quite heavily.

The other religions, called the "Dharmic" religions, mostly from India (Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, Sikhism etc.), are more about culture than dogma. This is especially true of Hinduism where you have sects that are antipodes of each other; atheism (yes, there are atheistic sects within Hinduism) and dogmatic dualistic philosophy (Dvaita or "dualism").

Having said that, most people in the world follow traditions and philosophies of their environment. This is fact. This in fact extends beyond the religious sphere as you can tell with food, clothing, behavior etc.

With regard to the religions, it is hard to explain without stepping on some toes but I shall try to be as diplomatic as possible.

The simple fact of the matter is that the Abrahamic religions are more about faith than experience. The Dharmic religions, Hinduism & Buddhism in particular, emphasize experience of the "divine" (or whatever you want to call it) rather than 'belief' and/or faith. There are sects in both those religions that recognize the existence of other beings ("higher" and "lower" -- in terms of level of consciousness) but ultimately, those religions, in their respective scriptures, are merely guides for the "SEEKER OF TRUTH" or Sadhaka. Thus, the goal of the two main Dharmic religions are to act as lamps along a dark/unknown path for those who are seeking to find out the truth; aka the nature of reality. That is why they stress practice (yoga/meditation/pilgrimage etc.) over mere dogmatic "belief" or affirmation of the Supreme.

One way to look at it is Hinduism/Buddhism are introspective paths to find out the nature of reality. That is why "Buddha" means "awakened one" or moksha is enlightenment as one is awakened to the TRUTH; one has transcended the phenomenal world into experiencing the divine.

The Abrahamic faiths are always at loggerheads with science because ultimately, they separate the "creator" and the "creation" and identify them as distinct. This "illusion", called MAYA in Hinduism, is the cause of all suffering. How do we know whether we are distinct or not? Well, that is for us to find out and experience. That is what the fully enlightened sages/seers of India have said thousands of years ago. The scriptures (Vedas and Buddhist scriptures) are merely guides to help us get there.

It is quite interesting that Advaita (non-dualism) in Hinduism and Buddhism, with its non-theistic philosophy of impermanence, are widely appreciated by the foremost scientists around the world. Instead of worrying about who is right and who is doing it "wrong", one should concentrate on one's own quest to find the TRUTH. That is the purpose of life; according to the Eastern religions.

With regard to your specific question about people choosing religions, it is largely based on the region they are born in. Very few people study other religions/paths and find out for themselves as the main reason is inertia and laziness of the mind/body. Those who do seek for themselves have to cross several cultural hurdles (clashing with familial traditions for example) along with other obstacles. There are few who do dare to venture outward and some find solace in other religions while others in non-theistic philosophy.

My opinion on it is that any philosophy/religion that says, "Our way is the ONLY way or RIGHT/CORRECT way and all others are FALSE/WRONG and thus doomed" are doing an enormous disservice to humanity and causing immense harm to societies around the world.

It is strange to note that the verse many associate with Jesus (John 14:6), "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me" is extremely similar to the same thing Krishna said to Arjuna on the battlefield of Kurukshetra in the Bhagavad Gita (Ch. 18 v.66) (~3139 BCE), "Abandon all varieties of religion and just surrender unto Me."

Yet, you don't see Hindus going around trying to convert people of other faiths. Why? It is because any message is only as good as the vessel that receives it.

A good analogy is music. If you took Tupac's music to some enclave in Connecticut and blasted it really loudly, cops will be on you quicker than you can say, "Ambitionz as a Ridah!" If you took Bach and blasted it in Compton loudly, people will look at you like, "Man, that some gay shit right there!" However, can you deny that the feeling one gets by listening to music (whatever form) is different? The subjective reality of happiness is a tell-tale sign that no one-size fits all method will work. Unfortunately, the Abrahamic religions are always about taking one path and shoving it down the throat of others regardless of their cultural, religious, ethnic, and socio-economic background. That is why there are religious conflicts all the time.
 
Mar 11, 2004
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Roll your eyes all you want. Everything I said is true. Maybe you can't handle the truth.

You don't know what you are talking about. The OP wasn't wanting to be persecuted, nor do other religious people. You pretend to know how it all works though, because after all, you're an expert.

What are you talking about? I didn't say it wasn't true so...I can't even begin to understand what you could possible be thinking with that.

If he didn't want to play the victim, then why did he? Why openly call attention to yourself? He even admitted that he knew what would happen, so why else would he have done it? Its not like there aren't a ton of other threads where he could have posted that and accomplished the same thing, but no he actually made a new thread and then told people to stay out. That's not asking to be picked on at all...

Sure, no one likes to actually be persecuted. The thing is, they are not being persecuted against but they sure like to act like they are. No one is stopping them from believing what they want, posting what they want, or anything on this message board.

They're being picked on because they try to rationalize with poor logic, and half the time they make claims that are just plain wrong. They tout willful ignorance as reasoning for their faith/beliefs and then try to claim they're right. Look at what he said about evolution in this thread. Likewise, FelixDeKat got trashed because he claimed Hitler was an atheist, and then ignored the proof to the contrary. Then he claimed that atheists will burn in hell and murder more people and molest more and other stuff that was more aggressive than what people were saying to him. But, yeah, we're just picking on people for no reason.

It doesn't take an expert to be able to point out when someone is wrong. In a lot of these instances, it doesn't take anything more than common sense, and plenty of times no more than an elementary school level of knowledge.

I'm not sure why you felt compelled to post about who posted in the thread, as you yourself warned him first. But hey, I guess that's ok, since he clearly didn't do it to get attention or anything. Go ahead and make your little disapproving smirk, but stop acting like they're innocent from what they get. I don't know if you noticed but there's plenty of people that post that they love jesus or are of a religion or believe in god, and they don't get picked on. In fact there's been plenty of good actual discussion. The thing is, when one side starts making claims that you can't know something and that makes them right, and that then that makes the other side wrong, it kinda doesn't go over well.

Lastly, sorry if I hurt your feelings, but hey, ignorance might be bliss but it tends to hurt more when reality hits you in the face.
 
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alevasseur14

Golden Member
Feb 12, 2005
1,760
1
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I pray for you all.

I'll pass, thanks.

I think the whole "I'll pray for you all" bit is a little patronizing. I don't WANT you to pray for me. It's like wasting more time on top of the waste of time praying is to begin with (to me).

Don't get me wrong though - as I said previously in this thread, I don't really care what you do or don't believe. That's your (believer or not) deal. In fact, I love talking about religion with people regardless of what they believe. What I've been talking about a lot lately is this idea that there's something wrong with not being the creation of a god(s), or something wrong with not believing your life has a purpose, or something wrong with decomposing after you die. Who has time to worry about that? I realize that's a pretty stupid question as A LOT of people have time to worry about it. I don't know, I just wake up every day, be a good person because I want to and not because I'm threatened with some kind of punishment if I'm not.

I did my major thesis on the debate over Intelligent Design being taught in public schools. It was a lot of fun and no, I didn't just bash on ID supporters. I got a lot of insight into what makes believers believe as they do and why both parties are so anxious over the whole thing. I'd post a link to it if I could find it and probably will when I do.
 

child of wonder

Diamond Member
Aug 31, 2006
8,307
176
106
I'll pass, thanks.

I think the whole "I'll pray for you all" bit is a little patronizing. I don't WANT you to pray for me. It's like wasting more time on top of the waste of time praying is to begin with (to me).

Don't get me wrong though - as I said previously in this thread, I don't really care what you do or don't believe. That's your (believer or not) deal. In fact, I love talking about religion with people regardless of what they believe. What I've been talking about a lot lately is this idea that there's something wrong with not being the creation of a god(s), or something wrong with not believing your life has a purpose, or something wrong with decomposing after you die. Who has time to worry about that? I realize that's a pretty stupid question as A LOT of people have time to worry about it. I don't know, I just wake up every day, be a good person because I want to and not because I'm threatened with some kind of punishment if I'm not.

I did my major thesis on the debate over Intelligent Design being taught in public schools. It was a lot of fun and no, I didn't just bash on ID supporters. I got a lot of insight into what makes believers believe as they do and why both parties are so anxious over the whole thing. I'd post a link to it if I could find it and probably will when I do.

I'd enjoy reading that.
 

xSauronx

Lifer
Jul 14, 2000
19,582
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I promised a few other friends I'd let them read it as well. It's either on my server or my desktop, both of which are at home (Of course they are! Haha!). I'll dig it up when I get off work.
i'll take a copy, if you dont mind
/late into the thread
//not gonna get started
 

Madwand1

Diamond Member
Jan 23, 2006
3,309
0
76
I am tired of seeing all these religous bashing threads. If I am alone so be it. If you love the Lord, give me a +1 or Amen.

Everybody loves God, and Jesus, as the love for them is deserved and thus latent. Even the atheists and others posting here opposing your trite chauvinism are expressing a love for something greater, the real God, for real evidence or experience of Him.

Amen.
 

alevasseur14

Golden Member
Feb 12, 2005
1,760
1
0
Everybody loves God, and Jesus, as the love for them is deserved and thus latent. Even the atheists and others posting here opposing your trite chauvinism are expressing a love for something greater, the real God, for real evidence or experience of Him.

Amen.

bwahahahahahahaha!

WHAT'D YOU SAY?!? Everybody loves god? Who are you??

bwahahahahahahaha!
 

Mike Gayner

Diamond Member
Jan 5, 2007
6,175
3
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Everybody loves God, and Jesus, as the love for them is deserved and thus latent. Even the atheists and others posting here opposing your trite chauvinism are expressing a love for something greater, the real God, for real evidence or experience of Him.

Amen.

LOLChristians
 

geno

Lifer
Dec 26, 1999
25,074
4
0
No, I just wanted a who loves Jesus post and to keep your riff raff out. IF you could read and follow directions, this would have been a simple thread.


I pray for you all.

I also expected nothing less than the worst of the worst to show up, which gives me a nice list to block.

Yeah, I'm sure you expected this thread to stay on topic... Just admit it was trollbait.
 

Perknose

Forum Director & Omnipotent Overlord
Forum Director
Oct 9, 1999
46,894
10,720
147
Yeah, I'm sure you expected this thread to stay on topic... Just admit it was trollbait.

I think the OP's dilemma was that he wanted to express his deeply felt thanks in light of his beliefs here but also knew what kind of highly charged response he would, in the main, engender.

He's not a troll. He would have preferred a different group of responses. But he knew he wouldn't get them. Does this mean he should have censored and stifled his own deeply held beliefs? It does not, imho.

You can disagree with the OP, but he is not a troll.
 

BAMAVOO

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
8,087
41
91
I think the OP's dilemma was that he wanted to express his deeply felt thanks in light of his beliefs here but also knew what kind of highly charged response he would, in the main, engender.

He's not a troll. He would have preferred a different group of responses. But he knew he wouldn't get them. Does this mean he should have censored and stifled his own deeply held beliefs? It does not, imho.

You can disagree with the OP, but he is not a troll.


I have been here long enough to know what I would get, but you know what, I really only wanted those that beleive to step up and say so. I know most here feel there is no God. How many times has the flying sphagetti monster been posted?
 

kalrith

Diamond Member
Aug 22, 2005
6,628
7
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Just a question for the Christians here: Jesus said "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." Which means (from every interpretation I've ever seen) that without a belief in Jesus, you're going to Hell. I wonder what happens to children who die before they are old enough to think for themselves, or to jungle natives who have never seen a Christian and never heard of Jesus. Are they damned?

There are differing beliefs here, but I'll go with the one that I've heard most often. Children who die before they are old enough to understand (most believe this includes miscarriages/abortions) go to heaven. This stems from David's statement regarding his dead baby: "I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me" (2 Samuel 12:23). Some believe that this means that David will go to the grave someday, rather than meaning that David will see his baby in the afterlife.

With what happens to the jungle natives, many would reference John 14:6 as you did, or many other verses, such as Acts 4:12: "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."

Another passage that comes to mind is Acts 17:24-31:

The God who made the world and all things in it…made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth…that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;

for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, 'For we also are His children.'

Being then the children of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man.

Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead.
Basically, these verses say that man was made to believe in God, and that in and of itself holds him accountable to trust in God. If they don't, they be damned.

I think there's another passage in Acts that basically says that man can know there's a God and seek after him based on His creation, and therefore nature itself is enough to condemn him even if he's a jungle native and never hears the name Jesus.
 

ThePresence

Elite Member
Nov 19, 2001
27,727
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There are differing beliefs here, but I'll go with the one that I've heard most often. Children who die before they are old enough to understand (most believe this includes miscarriages/abortions) go to heaven. This stems from David's statement regarding his dead baby: "I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me" (2 Samuel 12:23). Some believe that this means that David will go to the grave someday, rather than meaning that David will see his baby in the afterlife.

David lived long before Jesus. I don't see how his statement has anything whatsoever to do with this issue. And it certainly does not correlate with what Jesus said.

With what happens to the jungle natives, many would reference John 14:6 as you did, or many other verses, such as Acts 4:12: "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."

Another passage that comes to mind is Acts 17:24-31:

Basically, these verses say that man was made to believe in God, and that in and of itself holds him accountable to trust in God. If they don't, they be damned.

I think there's another passage in Acts that basically says that man can know there's a God and seek after him based on His creation, and therefore nature itself is enough to condemn him even if he's a jungle native and never hears the name Jesus.

Again, a nice thought, but that is not what Jesus said.
 

kalrith

Diamond Member
Aug 22, 2005
6,628
7
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Again, a nice thought, but that is not what Jesus said.

How does that not correlate with what Jesus said? It says, if people don't follow Christ, then they go to hell because the fact that creation should point them to God (and ultimately to Christ) is enough to condemn them.

Edit: And in reference to your first statement, it doesn't matter than David lived long before Jesus. There's a lot written in the New Testament that references the Old Testament (look at Hebrews or the many times Jesus or the apostles quote the Old Testament). That makes the time frame irrelevant.

I'm not saying I hold these beliefs. You asked how a Christian would respond, and I told you. Personally, I don't think David's statement is enough to say that all babies go to heaven, but that's the ONLY verse I've ever heard referenced for why Christians believe that babies will be in heaven.

Basically, holding only to what the Bible says, anyone who doesn't trust in Christ as his Savior goes to hell. The only way to deviate from that is to say something like, "God is a loving God and therefore couldn't possibly cast little babies or the African tribe into hell, because they have no chance of believing."

Well, that's a nice thought, but it's not what the Bible says. The Bible basically says that everyone deserves hell because of his sin, and even a baby is sinful because he receives his parents' sin nature (which is why the virgin birth is such a big deal, because if Jesus weren't born to a virgin, then he would've been born as a sinner).

So, it's only God's mercy that spares a few from hell, and since everyone deserves hell in the first place, it's deemed as good, loving, and merciful that God spares a few.
 
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kalrith

Diamond Member
Aug 22, 2005
6,628
7
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My above post is getting a little convoluted, so I'll try to be clearer in this one. The main issue is God's holiness and His justice. His holiness doesn't allow for sin to be in His presence; therefore, something has to pay for man's sin before man can be in the presence of God. In the Old Testament it was the sacrifice of spotless lambs. In the New Testament it is the sacrifice of Jesus, "the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world."

So, basically, unless someone trusts in Jesus as his Lord and Savior, his sins have not been paid for, and he can't be in the presence of God. This would apply to anyone: an unborn child, a 2-day-old baby, a tribesman in Africa who has never seen a Bible or heard the name Jesus. It's just how things work because of God's holiness. If people try to say otherwise, then it goes against God's very nature, and it's simply human emotions that can't fathom that God would cast an "innocent" baby into hell. There's not a single verse in the Bible that says that He wouldn't (the David reference is grasping at imaginary straws), whereas there are many verses that say He will cast everyone into hell who doesn't trust in Christ.

God's justice also comes into play. People like to talk about how God is absolute love, but He's also absolutely just. That means He can't spare His wrath from those who oppose Him (i.e. everyone who hasn't trusted in Jesus).

Like I said before, I'm not saying I uphold these beliefs, but it is what the Bible says.
 
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SlitheryDee

Lifer
Feb 2, 2005
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My above post is getting a little convoluted, so I'll try to be clearer in this one. The main issue is God's holiness and His justice. His holiness doesn't allow for sin to be in His presence; therefore, something has to pay for man's sin before man can be in the presence of God. In the Old Testament it was the sacrifice of spotless lambs. In the New Testament it is the sacrifice of Jesus, "the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world."

So, basically, unless someone trusts in Jesus as his Lord and Savior, his sins have not been paid for, and he can't be in the presence of God. This would apply to anyone: an unborn child, a 2-day-old baby, a tribesman in Africa who has never seen a Bible or heard the name Jesus. It's just how things work because of God's holiness. If people try to say otherwise, then it goes against God's very nature, and it's simply human emotions that can't fathom that God would cast an "innocent" baby into hell. There's not a single verse in the Bible that says that He wouldn't (the David reference is grasping at imaginary straws), whereas there are many verses that say He will cast everyone into hell who doesn't trust in Christ.

God's justice also comes into play. People like to talk about how God is absolute love, but He's also absolutely just. That means He can't spare His wrath from those who oppose Him (i.e. everyone who hasn't trusted in Jesus).

Like I said before, I'm not saying I uphold these beliefs, but it is what the Bible says.

Haha that's such bullshit. What's holiness anyway and why does it require sacrifice?

"I killed a lamb for your sins" is about as logical as saying "I pinched a 5 year old on the ass for your credit card debt".