If you had Independent Rear Suspension...

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TehMac

Diamond Member
Aug 18, 2006
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Would you need a limited slip differential? Would that technically make sense?

I know that the differential was first used to prevent wheel slippage on live axel cars back in the day, and that a LSD is essentially a beefed up differential to prevent even more slipping.

However, IRS suggests that there isn't an axel and that as a result, an LSD wouldn't be necessary.

It might be a dumb question, but I think it's an interesting one. Thanks in advance.
 

brblx

Diamond Member
Mar 23, 2009
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i have no idea what you're asking.

differential - allows wheels to turn at different speeds. will only apply torque to one wheel unher hard acceleration.

LSD - uses a mechanism (typically clutches) to lock the differential for straight line acceleration.

IRS - the wheels can move independently of each other and are not linked together by a solid beam. has nothing to do with the type of differential in the car.
 

fleabag

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Oct 1, 2007
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Yes you still do because traction isn't always perfect on both wheels. Haven't you ever spun the inner wheel of a car despite it having an independent suspension?
 

fleabag

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Oct 1, 2007
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i have no idea what you're asking.

differential - allows wheels to turn at different speeds. will only apply torque to one wheel unher hard acceleration.

LSD - uses a mechanism (typically clutches) to lock the differential for straight line acceleration.

IRS - the wheels can move independently of each other and are not linked together by a solid beam. has nothing to do with the type of differential in the car.

His theory is that the point of an LSD is because usually one wheel gets less traction than the other, causing it to spin and this is especially a problem on non independent suspensions. However, with that said, an independent suspension will not always give you 100% traction or 50-50 traction on both wheels, there is always the potential for a situation where one wheel gets more traction than the other and consequently wheel spin in the opposite wheel.
 

brblx

Diamond Member
Mar 23, 2009
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oh, is he saying that IRS would plant the wheels better and therefore allow a perfect transfer of torque?

no, no it wouldn't.

(did it actually take a fleabag reply to get me to understand what the OP was asking? sad day)
 

exdeath

Lifer
Jan 29, 2004
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LSD and IRS are completely unrelated.

Both wheels are still driven by a common power source through a differential even if they articulate independently from one another over uneven surfaces.

The differential addresses the problem of the wheels needing to spin at different speeds with respect to that power source, as when the car is turning, and that problem is independent from axle design.

All the IRS does is insulate the effects of the road surface on one wheel from transferring to the other and allows each wheel maintain it's own proper geometry (eg: camber) and tire contact without inversely affecting the other.
 
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thomsbrain

Lifer
Dec 4, 2001
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Regular diffs preferentially send power the wheel that is spinning the fastest. So if a wheel breaks traction, the diff sends the power to that same spinning wheel, and it keeps spinning and you don't accelerate well.

LSDs preferentially send power to the wheel that is spinning the slowest. So if a wheel breaks traction, the diff sends the power to the opposite wheel (which has more grip), and the spinning wheel can stop spinning while the grippy wheel still accelerates you. You continue to accelerate well.

In terms of handling in turns, regular diffs make the car turn a little harder under light throttle (power goes to outside wheel, pushing around the corner) until the inside tire breaks loose, at which point all the power goes to the inside and it keeps spinning and you don't accelerate out of the corner well.

A LSD sends it to the inside tire initially (it is moving slower) which tends to make the car resistant to turning (pushes you away from center of turn), until you give it so much gas that the inside tire would spin, at which point the LSD shifts power to the outside where there is more grip, which makes the car turn harder and keep accelerating (feels like you're being yanked through the turn). This makes cornering less predictable but a lot faster if you know what you're doing.

An active differential like Honda's SH and SH-AWD systems and their clones preferentially send power to the outside wheel nearly all the time, purposely overdriving the outside wheel to push the car around the corner in a responsive, predictable, and quick manner. Best of both worlds.
 

extide

Senior member
Nov 18, 2009
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LSD and IRS are completely unrelated.

Both wheels are still driven by a common power source through a differential even if they articulate independently from one another over uneven surfaces.

The differential addresses the problem of the wheels needing to spin at different speeds with respect to that power source, as when the car is turning, and that problem is independent from axle design.

All the IRS does is insulate the effects of the road surface on one wheel from transferring to the other and allows each wheel maintain it's own proper geometry (eg: camber) and tire contact without inversely affecting the other.

This.
 

canadageek

Senior member
Dec 28, 2004
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LSDs preferentially send power to the wheel that is spinning the slowest. So if a wheel breaks traction, the diff sends the power to the opposite wheel (which has more grip), and the spinning wheel can stop spinning while the grippy wheel still accelerates you. You continue to accelerate well.



no, an LSD locks the two axles together, it doesn't shift power back and forth.
 

exdeath

Lifer
Jan 29, 2004
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LSD keeps the wheels locked together normally through clutches in the carrier. If a tire wants to spin faster as in a turn, with a wheel in the air, or spinning on ice, it has to overpower the clutch packs first since that's whats keeping it the same speed as the opposite wheel.

Though the process is very gradual and linear so it's not like they are always slipping on and off. The idea is the "up until it slips" part doesn't last very long because the transferring of torque to the opposite wheel has already alleviated the problem that caused the other tire to want to spin faster in the first place (eg: the vehicle moved forward even with one wheel spinning because the axles were locked and now that wheel is no longer in a patch of ice/dirt/etc.).

Note that there are two cases of the wheels spinning at different speeds, but only one that is desirable: one where one wheel has traction and the other is spinning (dirt, ice, wheel in the air), and the desirable case where both wheels have traction (as in a turn). Only the second case really ever causes the clutches to slip and allow independent wheel speeds, in fact the only condition in which there is enough force to actually overpower the clutches; the only time you want it and the whole purpose of a differential in the first place. This is the limited time the differential is allowed to slip, eg: LSD.

Without a mechanism to selectively lock the wheels together (more like unlock, they are locked by default), the wheel spinning will get all the power (twice the speed even) and the wheel on asphalt will be like the wheel being held in place in the video above. Locking the wheels together solves that problem. But when both wheels have traction, but are spinning at different speeds, as when turning, the clutches are able to slip and allow the car to turn without scrubbing the tires as with a locker or a welded differential where the wheels are permanently locked.

As I said before, the differential is about coupling two different wheels that can travel at different speeds to a common drive shaft spinning at one speed. It's function is completely independent of the suspension system, which has a different and unrelated purpose of keeping the wheels in contact with the road. An IRS still has two axles (so does a solid axle), the difference is the axles can MOVE (as in up down left right anything other than SPIN) independently rather than moving together in the single suspended housing. Note that "solid axle" isn't really solid, but two axles in one housing that can only spin different speeds through the differential, but must articulate together because they are fixed to the same housing.

So I guess we can simplify the original question:

-the differential controls how the wheels SPIN/ROTATE relative to one another
-the suspension setup, IRS vs. solid axle, determines how the wheels MOVE/ARTICULATE on the suspension relative to one another.
 
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joutlaw

Golden Member
Feb 18, 2008
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Without a mechanism to selectively lock the wheels together (more like unlock, they are locked by default), the wheel spinning will get all the power (twice the speed even) and the wheel on asphalt will be like the wheel being held in place in the video above. Locking the wheels together solves that problem. But when both wheels have traction, but are spinning at different speeds, as when turning, the clutches are able to slip and allow the car to turn without scrubbing the tires as with a locker or a welded differential where the wheels are permanently locked.

I have a 04 Silverado with the RPO code G80 locking differential. It's a beast off road and can be pretty scary to drive in the rain.

In a truck, a locking differential is the only way to go. You can still peg leg a LSD, but a locker will always pull with both tires.

Here are some videos of it in action and how it works:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGlacQlBGcQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8nAbg5suFw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCRhDEsv7g4
 
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