If you don't have mining rights on a property can a mine start to dig up on your land to mine, or even tear down your buildings?

[Red Squirrel]

Looking into an off grid property to build a camp which would eventually be a home. One I found is practically everything on my wish list except it's not lake front. That and there's no mineral rights but that's very hard to get so it's not a must have in my wish list. Only thing, this description makes it sound like they can just come and mine any time they want, is that really the case?

Legal Information:
...RESERVING TO [redacted], HIS HEIRS, EXECUTORS, ADMINISTRATORS AND ASSIGNS, ALL ORES, MINES AND MINERALS WHATSOEVER ALREADY FOUND OR WHICH MAY HEREAFTER BE FOUND IN, ON OR UNDER THE SAID LANDS, WITH FULL LIBERTY AT ALL TIMES TO PROSPECT FOR MINERALS AND TO CARRY ON MINING OPERATIONS AND TO WORK AND TO CARRY AWAY THE SAID MINES AND MINERALS;

How does it normally work when you don't have mineral rights and someone else does? It's one thing if some individual is treking through the woods and gets gold that's on the surface but I don't exactly want some big mining corporation turning it into an open pit mine either. Can they actually do that?

 

[IronWing]

In the US, the mineral estate is the dominant estate with the mineral holder having rights superior to that of the surface owner. I suspect that it is the same in Canada as the concept comes out of English mining law. You may wish to consult a Canadian mineral lawyer for clarification. Find out who currently owns the mineral rights. Is it a private individual? A mining company? If a private indivedual, does that person have any mining background or interests?

As a practical matter, you live in the vicinity of a large, active mine. Is the property you are interested in near the mine? Near any old mine workings? Evaluate the risk of there being minerals worth mining on the land that you'd like to buy. Maybe contact the Canadian Geological Survey or Ontario Geological Survey to learn if the land has been explored for minerals or geologically mapped.

 

[KMFJD]

Is it crown land?

2.6 What is the status of Land that is occupied or being used?
A mining claim cannot be staked out nor can prospecting be done on the part of a lot where any of the following are situated, subject to the exemptions noted below:

• house/residence/cottage/dwelling
• church
• cemetery
• public building
• spring
• artificial reservoir
• dam or waterworks
• outhouse
• manufactory
• a garden, orchard, vineyard, nursery, plantation or pleasure ground or where crops can be damaged

If any of the above exist on your property, a licensee cannot:
1. enter,
2. prospect, or
3. stake
these areas without your consent. A licensee may stake out or prospect without your consent if s/he obtains an order by the Mining Recorder or Commissioner allowing him/her to do so [s.32(1)].
If a dispute arises about the parts of the land which cannot be prospected or staked, the Mining Recorder or Commissioner will determine the areas which cannot be prospected or staked [s.32(2)]. The holder of the mining claim or licensee then cannot enter the areas of the land found to be exempt from staking. Any areas exempt from staking are also exempt from a mining claim.

https://wman-info.org/resource/understanding-mining-rights-in-ontario/

 

[Red Squirrel]

I contacted the realtor of the property too so they might know more specific details.

It seems it's an individual in this case, and he died in the early 1900's but I imagine if the person is dead the rights just default to a local mining company. There's no active mines in the actual area, but gold can be found pretty much everywhere.

I also asked if I'm legally allowed to plow the road, since if not, then it's kind of moot, can't really buy this property as it's not plowed. My intention would be to just get the equipment to do it myself. It's only a few km of road that is not plowed anyway.

 

[Red Squirrel]

Is it crown land?

2.6 What is the status of Land that is occupied or being used?
A mining claim cannot be staked out nor can prospecting be done on the part of a lot where any of the following are situated, subject to the exemptions noted below:

• house/residence/cottage/dwelling
• church
• cemetery
• public building
• spring
• artificial reservoir
• dam or waterworks
• outhouse
• manufactory
• a garden, orchard, vineyard, nursery, plantation or pleasure ground or where crops can be damaged

If any of the above exist on your property, a licensee cannot:
1. enter,
2. prospect, or
3. stake
these areas without your consent. A licensee may stake out or prospect without your consent if s/he obtains an order by the Mining Recorder or Commissioner allowing him/her to do so [s.32(1)].
If a dispute arises about the parts of the land which cannot be prospected or staked, the Mining Recorder or Commissioner will determine the areas which cannot be prospected or staked [s.32(2)]. The holder of the mining claim or licensee then cannot enter the areas of the land found to be exempt from staking. Any areas exempt from staking are also exempt from a mining claim.

https://wman-info.org/resource/understanding-mining-rights-in-ontario/

That is great to know, I guess I don't have to worry. It's not crown land but has lot of crown land in the area around. Given it's 40 acres even if they could mine part of the land that has no buildings it sounds like they would need permission first anyway. I would just get very good at building outhouses.

I feel the odds are very slim this would even happen though, but good to have my bases covered.

 

[IronWing]

That is great to know, I guess I don't have to worry. It's not crown land but has lot of crown land in the area around. Given it's 40 acres even if they could mine part of the land that has no buildings it sounds like they would need permission first anyway. I would just get very good at building outhouses.

I feel the odds are very slim this would even happen though, but good to have my bases covered.

What KMFJD wrote applies to Crown minerals only. The language of your deed is very broad. Consulting a mineral lawyer would a small price for a large purchase.

 

[Red Squirrel]

Since it mentions all those buildings it sounds like it's more than just crown land, as you can't build those things on crown land typically. But yeah if I was to follow through with the purchase I would find out the full details, mostly was just curious before I even start going deeper.

 

[IronWing]

Since it mentions all those buildings it sounds like it's more than just crown land, as you can't build those things on crown land typically. But yeah if I was to follow through with the purchase I would find out the full details, mostly was just curious before I even start going deeper.

The rules were referring to Crown minerals beneath private surface. In Canada, the Crown reserved gold and silver to itself for most private lands.

 

[KMFJD]

2.8 Can a mining operation obtain the Surface rights?
Surface rights may be sold or granted to a mining operation if the surface rights are necessary for the carrying out of mining operations. The Minister will determine the scope of the surface right so granted. [s.39(2)].
If the lessee or owner of mining rights or the holder of a mining licence of occupation requires the use of surface rights within or outside the limits of lands covered by the lease, patent or licence of occupation for the mining rights, the Minister may lease to that person any available surface rights for the purpose of mining or mining exploration. [s.84(1)]

2.9 Can a surface rights holder be obligated to sell his/her property?
Initially, the Commissioner held in Wollasco Minerals Inc. v Ronald Price [File No. MA 004-03, Oct. 2003] that if the holder of the mining claim makes a production decision, the mining company has the option to purchase the property at 200% of its fair market value (as averaged by two appraisals), and the surface rights holder has the obligation to sell the property. Because it was outside of the ambit of the appeal, this order was rescinded in February 2005.


some more info

 

[Red Squirrel]

Wow was not expecting a response especially on Easter, but got one and looks like I'm probably in the clear. I guess when I googled the name it was not the same person though as the name I had found was someone from the 1800's, but looks like it's from 1950's, either way a long time ago.

Hi
From what we can see, the owner from the 50’s had kept the mineral rights probably for speculation. If there were minerals there they would of found them by now.
Only the owner can explore for minerals with your involvement.

Yes you can plow the road as it private and not part of the township.

Have a great weekend

Either way looks like they would need my consent. Also good to know I can plow the road. I'm toying with putting an offer on the property. Though I may wait it out and see if something better comes up. I might regret it later if I don't get lakefront.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

Wow was not expecting a response especially on Easter, but got one and looks like I'm probably in the clear. I guess when I googled the name it was not the same person though as the name I had found was someone from the 1800's, but looks like it's from 1950's, either way a long time ago.



Either way looks like they would need my consent. Also good to know I can plow the road. I'm toying with putting an offer on the property. Though I may wait it out and see if something better comes up. I might regret it later if I don't get lakefront.

So... Mineral rights can't get passed down from inheritance or something?

I'm with IronWing on this one - I would consult a lawyer just to CYA. An email or phone dialogue means nothing. A signed contract does.

 

[Ken g6]

I might regret it later if I don't get lakefront.

I'm just thinking here, we're talking a lake, in Canada, right? Still water? Would that produce a lot of mosquitoes? You might regret it later if you do get lakefront.

 

[lxskllr]

I'd rather have a nice creek than a lake.

 

[Red Squirrel]

I'm just thinking here, we're talking a lake, in Canada, right? Still water? Would that produce a lot of mosquitoes? You might regret it later if you do get lakefront.

There will be mosquitoes no matter what, it's in the bush. That is going to be the only downside of living in such a setting. Then again even in a normal residential neighbourhood they get pretty bad too at night. It's only in summer though. Something we kind of learn to just put up with when camping.

And yeah I imagine the actual purchase process involves a lawyer so some of the details would be hashed out more officially. Just trying to find out generalized info before I actually go that far.

A creek would be nice too, as I could generate a bit of power with it. I don't see any on the property on Google maps but there is always a chance of finding a small one. There is one East of the property on crown land though, which may or may not be of any use, but nice to know it's there.

 

[Red Squirrel]

So... Mineral rights can't get passed down from inheritance or something?

I'm with IronWing on this one - I would consult a lawyer just to CYA. An email or phone dialogue means nothing. A signed contract does.

I guess it would depend if it's in the will. It sounds like this particular case the person got mineral rights with the intention of using it as a mine at some point but never did. either way based on all the info I have I think the odds of it being a problem are very slim to none. I would of course get the final word from the lawyer if I did go through with buying.

 

[Red Squirrel]

I just had a random thought... if I buy this property and end up making it year round livable, I still could sell my house even if I keep working, I could just get a very small apartment that would be literally just for sleeping, then I'd go live on the property on my days off. Would save tons of money that way while enjoying my property earlier in life. I've always said rent is throwing money away, but if I found a cheap place that is less than what I pay in taxes it would make sense in my case since it would not be my primary residence.

The more I think about it the more I'm leaning towards buying this (of course need to get lawyer at that point). Going to wait till spring/summer when the snow is mostly all gone so I can actually get to it and go check it out. Will let me gauge what the road is like too. If it's no longer available by then oh well, was not meant to be. The site that lists these also has a spot where you can send a message with a "wish list" and they will let you know when something comes up, so I might also do that and just wait. Not in a super hurry but just been thinking more and more about it latetly. Life is short, may as well do the things I want to do while I'm still young-ish. Especially in summer I always think it would be nice to have a camping spot that I own that I can just go chill at. It would act as that for a while until I build out all the proper infrastructure.

 

[PowerEngineer]

I contacted the realtor of the property too so they might know more specific details.

I would not put any faith in what a realtor tells me. At least here in the US, realtors normally work as agents for seller and will therefore answer buyer questions in a way that presents the seller's property in the best possible light. As others have already suggested, you need to consult with an attorney experienced in mining/mineral rights. (Frankly, not getting the mineral rights as part of the purchase would scare me off.)

 

[Red Squirrel]

I would not put any faith in what a realtor tells me. At least here in the US, realtors normally work as agents for seller and will therefore answer buyer questions in a way that presents the seller's property in the best possible light. As others have already suggested, you need to consult with an attorney experienced in mining/mineral rights. (Frankly, not getting the mineral rights as part of the purchase would scare me off.)

True but it at least gives a general idea. Getting mineral rights is VERY rare. I've only found a few properties that have it, and they are usually in organized townships where you're not allowed to build anything bigger than 100 sqft and rarely have road access.

I'm not going to see a lawyer until I'm actually ready to buy if I even decide to, then if anything is red flag I can back out at that point before I commit. I can probably put that as a buy condition as well.

Even residential properties typically don't come with mineral rights. If I find gold while digging in my yard I don' t have rights to it . It's retarded that it works that way though, but sadly the world we live in, where we don't have a lot of rights even on our own properties. Unorganized township is as close as you can get to having decent rights as at least I can build what I want.

 

[lxskllr]

Just curious. What kind of price are you looking at?

 

[Red Squirrel]

Around 40k for 40 acres. So not too bad. I would put an offer for 30k and see where it goes. I have around 25k in stocks I could put towards it, then put rest on mortgage.

Ideally I should wait a few more years and accumulate more money in stocks though. (employer ESPP)

Not sure if there is sales tax on property but if there is then I need to add 15%. probably verious other fees too like lawyer etc.

 

[lxskllr]

Man, $40k, eh? I'd be tempted to buy it just cause. Are there property taxes?

 

[Red Squirrel]

Low property taxes since it's unorganized, About $300/year. Which is oddly high for unorganized, but still not a big deal.

That's kind of my mind set too, at that price it's really tempting because it checks pretty much all the boxes I want except for lake front but there's lakes everywhere off that road from what I gather. (have not been out there yet)

 

[lxskllr]

Wooded? I'd clear a patch in the middle, building a cabin with the trees, and grow... Not sure what grows up there; taters? I'd love to see some pictures :^)

 

[Red Squirrel]

Fully wooded, so I'd want to clear a nice area in the middle and build. Would want a decent enough clearing in case of forest fire so I at least have a fighting chance of saving the cabin, and for the solar arrays. All the cut trees would provide tons of fire wood, and probably use some of it for construction too though I'm leaning towards standard 2x lumber just since it's easier to work with, but definitely incorporate some of the trees as part of the build too.

 

[Sgt. York]

How much experience do you have felling trees and pulling stumps?