If you considered a fetus a child, would you still be pro-choice?

[Viditor]

Originally posted by: blackangst1
Not in modern day catholic churches. Roman catholic, some perhaps.

Buh bye

:roll:

Birth Control has been outlawed for all Catholics by the Pope specifically since 1968.

"Pope Benedict XVI on Saturday acknowledged that the Vatican's instructions against using birth control is complicated, even as he praised a 1968 Church document that condemned contraception."
Benedict XVI in May 2008

 

[magomago]

of course.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: Darwin333

Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper

The subject of the thread is completely irrational. Until someone can show that a newborn has a human-level consciousness capable of abstract thought--capable of having a personality, it's ridiculous to contemplate the possibility that fetuses with barely developed brains could be considered children. The only way you could equate a fetus with a child is if you believe that a magic god-being "breathes" "souls" into embryos at the time of conception.

Then what magic happens at the time of birth? Why can't the mother terminate a 3 month old?

From a moral standpoint it very well may not be a violation of anyone's right to pursue life by killing a 3 month old since there may not be an "anyone" in a three month old; it probably wouldn't have a human consciousness at that stage.

However, for the purposes of having objective (clear, non-ambiguous) law, individual rights would be recognized at birth. At this point the infant has been individuated and is no longer living as a growth inside of a woman's body and a woman would have had ample time to terminate the pregnancy by that point.

 

[Cattlegod]

I believe we should be able to abort children up to 2 years old.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: piasabird
What if you dont agree with those choices. I think life begins at conception and killing a living being is murder.

The problem, no matter what side of the aisle, is taking away choice from Americans. There are SOOOOO many laws I disagree with, but as a whole I wouldnt take away the right to freedom. Another personal example is religion. Im not going to name specif ones, but just because It hink theyre wrong and mislead people doesnt mean I would outlaw it. BOTH sides are guilty of pushing their morals on others.

If yout hink abortion is wrong, dont fuckin get one.

 

[TheSlamma]

I think parents should be able to abort till age 17.. extended if they don't move their ass out by 18.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: Viditor

Originally posted by: blackangst1
Not in modern day catholic churches. Roman catholic, some perhaps.

Buh bye

:roll:

Birth Control has been outlawed for all Catholics by the Pope specifically since 1968.

"Pope Benedict XVI on Saturday acknowledged that the Vatican's instructions against using birth control is complicated, even as he praised a 1968 Church document that condemned contraception."
Benedict XVI in May 2008

And the Qoran specifically authorizes ANY Muslim to kill those who dont convert. Doesnt mean its practiced.

 

[SergeC]

If my aunt had a package, she'd be my uncle.....

 

[racolvin]

Originally posted by: Zstream

Originally posted by: woodie1
I am pro choice - her body, her choice for whatever reason.

So what about drugs? What about parents killing the son or daughter a day after it is born?

To say it is just the woman's body is nonsense. The woman may be carrying the baby but the child is indeed a separate entity. Just as much as we are when we are out of the womb, except we feed off of other things.

Why is it the baby has a unique set of DNA, a unique set of prints? It not matters when you feel that life begins, it matters that life has begun!

Rather you like to admit it or not but we can conceivable create our own baby without a natural womb. Does that make a difference?

Oh please....

Oh please with the softball questions ...

What about drugs? Which ones are you referring to? And killing a day after it's born? Look, once it has been carried to term and delivered, it's a baby and killing it is technically murder. The option there is to give the baby up for adoption, period, full stop. Just strangling it or dropping it in the rubbish bin is not an option..

Until it reaches the point in gestation where it could survive outside the womb, it's just a mass of cells/tissue that if the mother wants to be rid of, its her choice. Cancer cells have different DNA as well btw...

Why is it that a subset of the pro-life folks want to take the high-and-mighty position of saying "if you get pregnant, no matter how and no matter the implications, you must carry it to term and either raise it or give it up for adoption". Whether she chooses to terminate her pregnancy is really and truly none of your business. It isn't your body and it wouldn't be your child. Her pregnancy doesn't touch your life in any way whatsoever, so why do you insist on forcing your opinions and beliefs on her?

 

[piasabird]

It is hard to tell if children will develop well. Some of the best military people who were great leaders of men into battle were failures in civilian life. It is hard to tell how important one individual will be before birth. One might argue that micheal hawking is a genious, while others might say he should have been aborted. Men should not play God.

I think if you ask a lot of women who have had abortions, they will not tell you they are glad or proud of their actions. If you feel bad about something, then it must be a bad act. It is the ultimate act of selfishness.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: piasabird
It is hard to tell if children will develop well. Some of the best military people who were great leaders of men into battle were failures in civilian life. It is hard to tell how important one individual will be before birth. One might argue that micheal hawking is a genious, while others might say he should have been aborted. Men should not play God.

I think if you ask a lot of women who have had abortions, they will not tell you they are glad or proud of their actions. If you feel bad about something, then it must be a bad act. It is the ultimate act of selfishness.

Well said. I would abortion as being selfish a close 2nd to suicide.

 

[Stuxnet]

Originally posted by: Zstream

Originally posted by: woodie1
I am pro choice - her body, her choice for whatever reason.

So what about drugs? What about parents killing the son or daughter a day after it is born?

To say it is just the woman's body is nonsense. The woman may be carrying the baby but the child is indeed a separate entity. Just as much as we are when we are out of the womb, except we feed off of other things.

Why is it the baby has a unique set of DNA, a unique set of prints? It not matters when you feel that life begins, it matters that life has begun!

Rather you like to admit it or not but we can conceivable create our own baby without a natural womb. Does that make a difference?

Oh please....

Don't let yourself get sucked into this nonsense. And when I say nonsense, I'm not referring to the OP; I'm referring to the "her body, her choice" idiots that plague our society. Just let it be. You're not changing their mind, they're not changing yours.

And to twits like Vic, there are millions of pro-lifers out there - such as myself - who have no issue whatsoever with birth control.

Dammit, now I'm letting myself get sucked into it. WTF.

Originally posted by: AreaCode707
Thanks all, for participating in the poll. You answered the question for my friend and I on the general perspective of the pro-choice crowd. For the pro-lifers, sorry for not giving you more poll options but the question was really directed to the pro-choicers for our purposes.

Understood :thumbsup:

Twas an interesting question, though. I've wondered myself what would happen to the grand debate if we ever got beyond the topic of when life begins. My speculation was that it never really mattered to pro-choicers, but it provided a nice crutch. This confirms those suspicions.

 

[AreaCode7O7]

Thanks all, for participating in the poll. You answered the question for my friend and I on the general perspective of the pro-choice crowd. For the pro-lifers, sorry for not giving you more poll options but the question was really directed to the pro-choicers for our purposes.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: blackangst1
Well said. I would abortion as being selfish a close 2nd to suicide.

Why do you regard "concern for one's self" as being a vice? Are you yourself not selfish? Why don't you sell all of your possessions and donate the proceeds to the poor? Don't you think it's selfish to have possession and ownership of all the stuff you have? Also, quit your job so that someone else can work it--stop being so danged selfish.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

The choice lies with the woman regardless.

It's just Jesus freaks who haven't really felt their chance to condemn women and punish them enough for their own sins that feel the need to actually take charge over a womans body.

They can all go fuck themselves, in a free society NO ONE can take charge of any persons body and if you think you can, you're a fucking fascist.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: jbourne77
And to twits like Vic, there are millions of pro-lifers out there - such as myself - who have no issue whatsoever with birth control.

That's why I said "usually" and provided the anti-birth control doctrine of the Catholic church as an example.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Besides, if you think that clinical death is murder (happens thousands of times each and every day) then you should rally against that first because these are BORN human beings with EXACTLY the same neo-cortex response as a pre-week 25 baby, IOW, a pre week 25 baby is clinically dead.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper

Originally posted by: blackangst1
Well said. I would abortion as being selfish a close 2nd to suicide.

Why do you regard "concern for one's self" as being a vice?

Not sure what this has to do with the comment you quoted.

Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper
Are you yourself not selfish?

Humans, ALL humans, are born into this world selfish. Kind of a worthless question. Or do you like intentionally putting people in a corner when you ask questions?

Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper
Why don't you sell all of your possessions and donate the proceeds to the poor?

Why? I have a family to provide for...besides...I am willing to bet I donate more time and a larger percentage of my income to the needy and homeless (I make approx. 50 thanksgiving dinners every year and drive around looking for homeless to feed. Every year for the last 11 years) than most on this board. Im alot of things but selfish is a hard sell.

Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper
Don't you think it's selfish to have possession and ownership of all the stuff you have?

Same answer covered in similar question above.

Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper
Also, quit your job so that someone else can work it--stop being so danged selfish.

I have responsibilities. Soonish I will though.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: Viditor

Originally posted by: blackangst1
Not in modern day catholic churches. Roman catholic, some perhaps.

Buh bye

:roll:

Birth Control has been outlawed for all Catholics by the Pope specifically since 1968.

"Pope Benedict XVI on Saturday acknowledged that the Vatican's instructions against using birth control is complicated, even as he praised a 1968 Church document that condemned contraception."
Benedict XVI in May 2008

And the Qoran specifically authorizes ANY Muslim to kill those who dont convert. Doesnt mean its practiced.

You are a retarded piece of shit, aren't you? We've had this discussion before three people provided you with the full text and you just left then, that is what you always do, isn't it, you run away from truth, same thing in every fucking thread.

I find you pathetic.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: Viditor

Originally posted by: blackangst1
Not in modern day catholic churches. Roman catholic, some perhaps.

Buh bye

:roll:

Birth Control has been outlawed for all Catholics by the Pope specifically since 1968.

"Pope Benedict XVI on Saturday acknowledged that the Vatican's instructions against using birth control is complicated, even as he praised a 1968 Church document that condemned contraception."
Benedict XVI in May 2008

And the Qoran specifically authorizes ANY Muslim to kill those who dont convert. Doesnt mean its practiced.

You are a retarded piece of shit, aren't you? We've had this discussion before three people provided you with the full text and you just left then, that is what you always do, isn't it, you run away from truth, same thing in every fucking thread.

I find you pathetic.

edit: nevermind. Fuckin prick wouldnt comprehend it correctly anyway.