If you believed the has-been attention grabbing media "generals" and thought the war was going badly, you may want to...

[Corn]

....avoid this thread.

If you're a jump on the anti-war bandwagon (not because you care about the Iraqi people but because you have a seething hatred for Bush) protester, you may want to avoid this thread.

If you expect Bush to abide by his promise and do right by the people of Iraq, by all means, join this discussion.

Getting rid of Saddam was the easy part. Getting the Kurds, Shiites, and Sunnis to play nice together may prove more difficult. I fear that acts of revenge may be inflicted on many Iraqi people merely because of their prior affiliation or sympathy to the Baath party.

The Iraqi population are reasonably well educated, and with the exception of the Kurds, do share a sense of nationalism. Assuming the peace can be kept and that their economy recovers quickly, I do see a prosperous future for Iraq. We must insure that the people of Iraq, nor its resources, appear to be, or actually are expoited for our material gain.

We have a great opportunity to prove to the people of the Middle East that we are not at war with Islam, but with tyranny and opression caused by men.

I for one expect we don't fsck this up or god help us all........

 

[Red Dawn]

I wonder with Iraq now beoing our ally if we are going to show them how to actually run a Military. I also wonder if we are going to press them to have normal relations with Isreal.

 

[Bulk Beef]

Dunno about military, but a definite yes on Israel.

 

[Corn]

My hope is that Iraq becomes a strong ally for a mutual cause. While I do sympathise with the terrorism that the Israeli citizens have to endure on a daily basis, having another strong ally in the middle east may be the catylist to change the smug attitude of some of the hardline policy makers in the current Israeli government.

Bush seems genuine in his stated desire for a Palestinian state. Hopefully a friendship with another middle-eastern democracy will facilitate this outcome.

 

[Bulk Beef]

Hopefully a friendship with another middle-eastern democracy will facilitate this outcome.

I think that's been the idea all along. Iraq is just a first step to reshaping the whole region. Palestine/Israel, Saudi Arabia, etc.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: sward666
Dunno about military, but a definite yes on Israel.

Well as long as Israel has Racist Rat Bastard Leaders like Sharon I don't think that would be a good idea. Of course he looks like he's a prime candidate fort a Coronary (and it wouldn't be too soon) Hopefully they will elect a leader with Foresight (and maybe even foreskin) who realizes that to end the pattern of death Israel will have to grant the indigenous peoples of Palestine their own homeland

 

[SuperTool]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: sward666
Dunno about military, but a definite yes on Israel.

Well as long as Israel has Racist Rat Bastard Leaders like Sharon I don't think that would be a good idea. Of course he looks like he's a prime candidate fort a Coronary (and it wouldn't be too soon) Hopefully they will elect a leader with Foresight (and maybe even foreskin) who realizes that to end the pattern of death Israel will have to grant the indigenous peoples of Palestine their own homeland

Since we have control over Iraq now, why don't we cut out a piece of it and resettle the Palestinians there. That way we'll solve the Israeli-Palestinian problem.

 

[Corn]

Since we have control over Iraq now, why don't we cut out a piece of it and resettle the Palestinians there. That way we'll solve the Israeli-Palestinian problem.

I doubt it. If Canada invaded Metro Detroit today and tried to re-settle me in, say, California....well I'd want to martyr myself via explosives strapped to my chest.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: Corn

Since we have control over Iraq now, why don't we cut out a piece of it and resettle the Palestinians there. That way we'll solve the Israeli-Palestinian problem.

I doubt it. If Canada invaded Metro Detroit today and tried to re-settle me in, say, California....well I'd want to martyr myself via explosives strapped to my chest.

Yeah, I'd kill myself too if Cananda tried to invade Detroit.....I'd kill myself laughing!

/joke

CkG

 

[XMan]

Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY

Originally posted by: Corn

Since we have control over Iraq now, why don't we cut out a piece of it and resettle the Palestinians there. That way we'll solve the Israeli-Palestinian problem.

I doubt it. If Canada invaded Metro Detroit today and tried to re-settle me in, say, California....well I'd want to martyr myself via explosives strapped to my chest.

Yeah, I'd kill myself too if Cananda tried to invade Detroit.....I'd kill myself laughing!

/joke

CkG

Do you think the Detroit gang-members could take the Canadian Army?

 

[Tiger]

When the new Iraq comes online with a moderate democratic government they will be the driving force for democratic reform in the whole area. Totalitarian regimes all over the mideast will have to sit up and take notice, or die. There will be a certain inertia because of what's happened in Iraq. The Arab people will learn they don't have to live like they've been living and will demand reform. Hopefully peacefully.

As for the retired generals. About the only one who didn't change with the reporting was Tom McInerny on Fox. From the start he said this would be a war like no other and he never changed his tune to fit the reporting. Wesley Clark and Barry McAfrey have lost all credibility and their careers are over. Heard a rumor today that Clark has vice presidential aspirations. He has proven he doesn't know dick about military or foreign affairs. He should go fishing for the next 20 years and forget politics.

 

[SuperTool]

Stalin did move all Chechens to Kazakstan. And if Khruschev didn't move them back afterwards, maybe Russia wouldn't be having this Chechen war now. No good deed goes unpunished.
Anyways, it could be done. If you can move the whole Palestinian nation into refugee camps, you can put them all on trains and move them to Iraq.
There are only something like 1 Million palestinians, and Iraq has something like 25 Million people. Not a huge impact. Hey, the Iraqi owe us something for "liberating" them.

 

[Thraxen]

It would never work. The Palestinians have previously been offered most of what the wanted but turned the offer down. The sticking point is Jerusalem. Both Israel and the Palestinians want control of that city for religious reasons.

 

[sparkyclarky]

It won't completely end it, but it sure as hell will slow it down!

 

[SuperTool]

Originally posted by: Thraxen
It would never work. The Palestinians have previously been offered most of what the wanted but turned the offer down. The sticking point is Jerusalem. Both Israel and the Palestinians want control of that city for religious reasons.

It wouldn't exactly be a voluntary thing.
But I still think it's better alternative than having Israel slowly push them out with settlements. Just do it all in 1 month, and be done with it. Otherwise it's continuous aggravation.

 

[Pliablemoose]

Remember the the saying "Follow the money?"

Follow the logic, Iraq joins the WTO (World Trade Organization), becomes a wealthy freaking world class membr (because of the oil it sells), and becomes a Mideast economic powerhouse.

When Saudi, Egypt, Jordan, etc (the moderates) see the economic progress made so quickly by Iraq, they'll be forced to follow suit.

None of the Arabic states are willing to join the WTO @ this time, because it would mean they have to trade with Israel.

Or we could be drug into a morass of gurella warfare that turns this into another Vietnam (oh wait, that already isn't a possibility, we freaking kicked ass & took names)

 

[SuperTool]

Hows joining WTO going to make Iraq wealthy? Their wealth comes from oil, not trading other goods. I don't think you have to be WTO member to sell oil.

 

[UltraQuiet]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
I wonder with Iraq now beoing our ally if we are going to show them how to actually run a Military. I also wonder if we are going to press them to have normal relations with Isreal.

Do a google on Ahmed Chalbi. Just to make it interesting add 'fraud' to one of your searches.

Do a google on Jay Garner. Just to make that interesting add 'JINSA' to your search.

These guys are supposed to be key in the new goverment especially Lt. Gen. Garner.

Draw you own conclusions

 

[Pliablemoose]

Originally posted by: SuperTool
Hows joining WTO going to make Iraq wealthy? Their wealth comes from oil, not trading other goods. I don't think you have to be WTO member to sell oil.

There are serious tariffs when you cross the borders with goods throughout the middle east, on the order of 20% on everything. Joining the WTO would do away with those tariffs, and bring Iraq into the world trade community, instead of trading with Russia, China, France, et al...

 

[prontospyder]

Originally posted by: Corn
My hope is that Iraq becomes a strong ally for a mutual cause. While I do sympathise with the terrorism that the Israeli citizens have to endure on a daily basis, having another strong ally in the middle east may be the catylist to change the smug attitude of some of the hardline policy makers in the current Israeli government.

Bush seems genuine in his stated desire for a Palestinian state. Hopefully a friendship with another middle-eastern democracy will facilitate this outcome.

Agreed.

 

[Dari]

Phuk Israel. That country is a political impossibility. If it wasn't for us, it wouldn't exist today. I think we should just worry about stabilizing the region/Iraq for now. The United States doesn't exist for Israel. In order for Israel to become a member of the family of nations, it has to give the Palestinians a legitimate country. Without that, it should rot in it's own settler policies.

 

[SuperTool]

Originally posted by: Pliablemoose

Originally posted by: SuperTool
Hows joining WTO going to make Iraq wealthy? Their wealth comes from oil, not trading other goods. I don't think you have to be WTO member to sell oil.

There are serious tariffs when you cross the borders with goods throughout the middle east, on the order of 20% on everything. Joining the WTO would do away with those tariffs, and bring Iraq into the world trade community, instead of trading with Russia, China, France, et al...

Yes, but that's not how oil business works. There aren't going to be different tariffs for oil from different countries. Oil is oil. It's a very liquid market.

 

[yllus]

The only reservation I've had about this war is that there are some bloody idiots who will wait approximately 10 months before asking, "Well the Iraqis aren't so much better off now after all, are they?" I will then attempt not to commit homicide.

It is most definitely going to be Wild West with 21st century weapons in Iraq and Afghanistan for a while. Democracy, law and order and respect for keepers of the peace are inextricably linked in my mind - but I don't see many Iraqis or Afghanis giving respect to policemen anytime soon, or to any other of the new rules the western idea of democracy would have them follow.

Bush isn't stupid. He knows the world won't stand for imperialism and I highly doubt he has that in mind anyway. Our part will hopefully be limited to providing help with infrastructure rebuilding, buying Iraqi oil/natural resources and lending the occasional guiding hand with respect to how votes and other low-level government functions are carried out properly. The rest is up to the Iraqi people, and more specifically on Iraqi expatriates. What I credit the Israelis most with is their ability to earn quality educations and funds abroad, then transfer those resources back home. Iraqi expatriates need to put their money and lives where their mouths are ("Stay out of our business!") and head back to rebuild their country.

Overall, a very good thing was accomplished in these short weeks. I have no doubt the Iraqi people, like the Afghanis, will thank America and Britain for this for a very long time.

 

[Pliablemoose]

Originally posted by: SuperTool

Originally posted by: Pliablemoose

Originally posted by: SuperTool Hows joining WTO going to make Iraq wealthy? Their wealth comes from oil, not trading other goods. I don't think you have to be WTO member to sell oil.

There are serious tariffs when you cross the borders with goods throughout the middle east, on the order of 20% on everything. Joining the WTO would do away with those tariffs, and bring Iraq into the world trade community, instead of trading with Russia, China, France, et al...

Yes, but that's not how oil business works. There aren't going to be different tariffs for oil from different countries. Oil is oil. It's a very liquid market.

Follow the money...

Oil is sold, cash goes into Iraq, money earned in Iraq is spent on goods & services, goods are artificially expensive, 20% above fair market value, because of the tariffs.

The sanctions are lifted, more money is earned when oil is sold, more money trickles into the Iraq economy.

If Iraq begins trading as a member of the WTO, they instantly get a 20% boost in the value of their money spent for goods, More money=more goods purchased, cars, homes, food... All have to come from somewhere.

Most goods in the Middle East are produced in the Middle East, if (when) Iraq starts spending that new $, and there'll be a lot of it, they'll be voting with their dollars, and perhaps purchasing goods from other WTO member countries.

Cash will also flow into the general economy more efficiently, instead of having princes in Saudi that are worth billions, the average Iraqi will be worth more than the average Saudi.

Average Saudi notices this, decides two hump camels are better than one hump camels & starts agitating for the royals in Saudi to be more like the British monarchy & Japanese system, more of a figurehead, rather than a true power. Saudi/Jordanian/Egyptian governments respond by allowing further privitization of business, and spreading around the wealth.

The simplistic hippie argument that "It's all about the US wanting oil." Is really so much BS, the fact is if they (Iraq & the rest of the Middle East start opening their borders & behaving more like states (remember the whole EU thing?), the average citizen will be better off & hopefully come up with a better to show their displeasure than hitting a statue or whatever with their freaking shoe, and vote with their currency of choice.

It's not "All about the oil." (& I know that's not what you're arguing), it's all about freedom, markets & constitutional rights...