If you are going to war, kick ass and don't try to win hearts....

[Thebobo]

Use to have a bumper sticker: KILL ALL THE RADICALS

 

[agent00f]

The assertion that its best to wage total war perfectly reveals the inherent fallacy of war itself.




Yeah I love how trying to support the idea of total war they basically just came to the idea that the way to be successful at war is to have a plan, and since plans go awry its best to keep them simple, and can't get more simple than "just kill everyone".

Funniest part is the people I've encountered that still try to hold to this total war belief are people who seem to take a lot of issue with William Tecumseh Sherman, and those issues have nothing to do with how going scorched earth means that you've just destroyed the land you're now going to inherit after you wage total war.

Quick add to your talk about Vietnam and Iraq. Let's not forget that both situations early on went from minor or no involvement to using small incidents (that were possibly entirely fabricated) to prop up the argument for war and spur the modern equivalent of total war (because if you're going to go to war, you go big to completely dominate, so you need all the weapons and bombs!), and then trying to claim that it was because you didn't actually go kill 'em all total war that it backfired in your face. But this way the relative hundreds of thousands of innocents that you end up with looks agreeable. But also you only didn't "win" because you didn't just kill them all. But you totally could have, see how gentle and gentile we are? Look at the millions we spared!

Makes it easy to identify the dunning kruger posterkids when they propose trivial plans to "win" Vietnam (or Afghanistan or similar) when actual war experts tend to agree these aren't really winnable wars.

 

[norseamd]

Funniest part is the people I've encountered that still try to hold to this total war belief are people who seem to take a lot of issue with William Tecumseh Sherman

No shit, well said.

 

[norseamd]

Makes it easy to identify the dunning kruger posterkids when they propose trivial plans to "win" Vietnam (or Afghanistan or similar) when actual war experts tend to agree these aren't really winnable wars.

I mean, I do think Afghanistan is winnable, but its a long term effort, and requires more than just military operations, it also requires political and economic work.

 

[agent00f]

I mean, I do think Afghanistan is winnable, but its a long term effort, and requires more than just military operations, it also requires political and economic work.

"Winning" Afghanistan essential means rebuilding what might as well be a fourth world country into a sustainable/stable government in a reasonable amount of time. This has pretty much never been done before in history.

 

[norseamd]

"reasonable" amount of time

Im basically saying its possible to maintain a garrison of US troops in Afghanistan until such time that either the Taliban and ISIS are defeated, or there are peace talks and eventually reunification. That would basically just prevent Iraq 2014 2.0 from happening again. Of course, it could take decades. So reasonable is fairly pliable, and in the eye of the beholder. It also requires competant administrations, both in America and Afghanistan.

 

[agent00f]

Im basically saying its possible to maintain a garrison of US troops in Afghanistan until such time that either the Taliban and ISIS are defeated, or there are peace talks and eventually reunification. That would basically just prevent Iraq 2014 2.0 from happening again. Of course, it could take decades. So reasonable is fairly pliable, and in the eye of the beholder. It also requires competant administrations, both in America and Afghanistan.

Don't think possibly waiting someone out while doing nothing and getting nothing at the end is what most would classify as "winning".

 

[norseamd]

Don't think possibly waiting someone out while doing nothing and getting nothing at the end is what most would classify as "winning".

Youre basically getting a possibly surviving Afghanistan. If we pull out, then Im not sure if the Afghani army can survive against the Taliban, and ISIS taking advantage of the resulting chaos and power vacuum isnt something that is likely to be worth the money saved by pulling out. In other words, pulling out of Afghanistan is probably penny wise and pound foolish.

 

[agent00f]

Youre basically getting a possibly surviving Afghanistan. If we pull out, then Im not sure if the Afghani army can survive against the Taliban, and ISIS taking advantage of the resulting chaos and power vacuum isnt something that is likely to be worth the money saved by pulling out. In other words, pulling out of Afghanistan is probably penny wise and pound foolish.

The Taliban are/were the government there because it represented the state of advancement most the country is in. Understand this basic reality and everything else becomes easier to comprehend, for example why putting some western troops on the ground does absolutely nothing.

 

[norseamd]

The Taliban are/were the government there because it represented the state of advancement most the country is in. Understand this basic reality and everything else becomes easier to comprehend, for example why putting some western troops on the ground does absolutely nothing.

I mean, not exactly.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/18/weekinreview/18bumiller.html

https://www.theatlantic.com/photo/2013/07/afghanistan-in-the-1950s-and-60s/100544/

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/asiapcf/08/19/afghan.untold/index.html?_s=PM:WORLD

 

[agent00f]

I mean, not exactly.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/18/weekinreview/18bumiller.html

https://www.theatlantic.com/photo/2013/07/afghanistan-in-the-1950s-and-60s/100544/

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/asiapcf/08/19/afghan.untold/index.html?_s=PM:WORLD

That was the afghan elite in one city, before intervention by the superpowers knocked even that back to the stone age. There's a lesson to be learned there.

 

[norseamd]

That was the afghan elite in one city, before intervention by the superpowers knocked even that back to the stone age. There's a lesson to be learned there.

True.