If we never sent any troops to the middle east after 9-11...

[Kaieye]

Would you protest against the White House for being "weak" or "ineffective"?

Would our economy be much stronger today? The four thousand American lives would still be here and hundreds of thousands of people in Iraq would still be alive if we didn't go in with our military.

I think that we should have pumped in a lot more $$ into groups like the CIA or special forces to quietly neutralize the possible threat of these radical groups or thugs. I know that it is difficult to locate and eradicate these vermin but we can't identify who the target is sometimes.

Discuss

 

[midway]

We should have sent (and did send) our troops to afghanistan. Iraq was just fucking stupid. General Petreus answered in his hearing last week before the Senate that the afghanistan pakistan border is the most important spot for us to control, and that compared to that Iraq is small potatoes, as far as terrorism is concerned. I do believe our economy would be stronger, we would also be in much better global standing. Say what you will about that but the US does NOT live in a bubble, other nation's opinion of us does matter.

 

[StageLeft]

Afghanistan has been mismanaged but jury is out on it. Jury is closed on Iraq, it was a mistake.

 

[tvarad]

If the Iraq war had not happened:

1) Saddam would have provided a natural counter-weight to Iran
2) Al-Qaeda would never have a base in Iraq
3) The U.S. would have the resources to tackle the real problem area: the Afghanistan/Pakistan border (and the Pakistani military establishment with it's nuclear weapons)
4) The world would not have lost it's respect for the U.S.
5) A lot of friendly nations would not have withdrawn crucial support in the fight against terror
5) The billions that the war is costing could have been used in the U.S. to tackle recessionary pressures
6) The Middle-East would still be the same medieval backwater that it is today

Feel free to add to the list

 

[yuppiejr]

Originally posted by: Kaieye
Would you protest against the White House for being "weak" or "ineffective"?

Would our economy be much stronger today? The four thousand American lives would still be here and hundreds of thousands of people in Iraq would still be alive if we didn't go in with our military.

I think that we should have pumped in a lot more $$ into groups like the CIA or special forces to quietly neutralize the possible threat of these radical groups or thugs. I know that it is difficult to locate and eradicate these vermin but we can't identify who the target is sometimes.

Discuss

I would argue that the current state of our economy has less to do with Iraq and more to do with a combination of idiotic monetary policy, consumer and lender idiocy in the housing market and a growing global demand for commodities driving up the cost of goods.

As for the "hundreds of thousands of people killed in Iraq" - tell that to the hundreds of thousands that were killed, tortured, raped or otherwise brutalized under the Hussein regime in which a minority of the population ruled the majority. Freedom, and the opportunity to enjoy it, carries a heavy price for the patriots who are willing to fight for it - be it American volunteers or Iraqis fighting for self governance of the Iraqi people. Hell, we'd be enjoying afternoon tea and biscuits if the French hadn't become involved on our behalf a couple hundred years ago...

 

[Robor]

Originally posted by: midway
We should have sent (and did send) our troops to afghanistan. Iraq was just fucking stupid. General Petreus answered in his hearing last week before the Senate that the afghanistan pakistan border is the most important spot for us to control, and that compared to that Iraq is small potatoes, as far as terrorism is concerned. I do believe our economy would be stronger, we would also be in much better global standing. Say what you will about that but the US does NOT live in a bubble, other nation's opinion of us does matter.

:thumbsup: Unfortunately there are a lot of people out there who couldn't care less what people outside the US think of our country.

 

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: Robor

Originally posted by: midway
We should have sent (and did send) our troops to afghanistan. Iraq was just fucking stupid. General Petreus answered in his hearing last week before the Senate that the afghanistan pakistan border is the most important spot for us to control, and that compared to that Iraq is small potatoes, as far as terrorism is concerned. I do believe our economy would be stronger, we would also be in much better global standing. Say what you will about that but the US does NOT live in a bubble, other nation's opinion of us does matter.

:thumbsup: Unfortunately there are a lot of people out there who couldn't care less what people outside the US think of our country.

Take it further, some take it as a source of pride that they are disliked because it helps separate them more from those outside of America. The more different those people are than the freedom-loving Americans domestically, the better the locals feel about themselves.

 

[Arkaign]

Originally posted by: tvarad
If the Iraq war had not happened:

1) Saddam would have provided a natural counter-weight to Iran
2) Al-Qaeda would never have a base in Iraq
3) The U.S. would have the resources to tackle the real problem area: the Afghanistan/Pakistan border (and the Pakistani military establishment with it's nuclear weapons)
4) The world would not have lost it's respect for the U.S.
5) A lot of friendly nations would not have withdrawn crucial support in the fight against terror
5) The billions that the war is costing could have been used in the U.S. to tackle recessionary pressures
6) The Middle-East would still be the same medieval backwater that it is today

Feel free to add to the list

^^^ Ouch but true.

7) The Republicans wouldn't look like total fucking idiots.

 

[jonks]

Originally posted by: Arkaign

Originally posted by: tvarad
If the Iraq war had not happened:

1) Saddam would have provided a natural counter-weight to Iran
2) Al-Qaeda would never have a base in Iraq
3) The U.S. would have the resources to tackle the real problem area: the Afghanistan/Pakistan border (and the Pakistani military establishment with it's nuclear weapons)
4) The world would not have lost it's respect for the U.S.
5) A lot of friendly nations would not have withdrawn crucial support in the fight against terror
5) The billions that the war is costing could have been used in the U.S. to tackle recessionary pressures
6) The Middle-East would still be the same medieval backwater that it is today

Feel free to add to the list

^^^ Ouch but true.

7) The Republicans wouldn't look like total fucking idiots.

8) Al Qaeda would not have had their global coordination disrupted for the past 5 years and instead of focusing on Iraq they would have succeeded in their attempt to dirty bomb Los Angeles killing millions.

Or not. Who knows? WTF is the point of asking 'what if' when no one can know what the hell would have happened? Iraq is a mistake, granted, but saying everything would have turned up roses if we didn't go there is just bs.

This is like a fap thread for alternate historians.

 

[ultra laser]

As it stands, more Americans have died fighting against terrorism than by actual terrorism. Doesn't quite seem worth it to me.

 

[magomago]

Originally posted by: sirjonk

Originally posted by: Arkaign

Originally posted by: tvarad
If the Iraq war had not happened:

1) Saddam would have provided a natural counter-weight to Iran
2) Al-Qaeda would never have a base in Iraq
3) The U.S. would have the resources to tackle the real problem area: the Afghanistan/Pakistan border (and the Pakistani military establishment with it's nuclear weapons)
4) The world would not have lost it's respect for the U.S.
5) A lot of friendly nations would not have withdrawn crucial support in the fight against terror
5) The billions that the war is costing could have been used in the U.S. to tackle recessionary pressures
6) The Middle-East would still be the same medieval backwater that it is today

Feel free to add to the list

^^^ Ouch but true.

7) The Republicans wouldn't look like total fucking idiots.

8) Al Qaeda would not have had their global coordination disrupted for the past 5 years and instead of focusing on Iraq they would have succeeded in their attempt to dirty bomb Los Angeles killing millions.

Or not. Who knows? WTF is the point of asking 'what if' when no one can know what the hell would have happened? Iraq is a mistake, granted, but saying everything would have turned up roses if we didn't go there is just bs.

This is like a fap thread for alternate historians.

1) is true because it was the past. there is no speculation about it - and the two countries were in the middle of war only 20 years ago
2) is also true and it isn't an "alternate historians" argument. There was no Al Qaeda in Iraq during the rule of Saddam. Considering how Saddam ruled, it is NO stretch to say that Al Qaeda - an organization who would look to overthrow Saddam's rule - would have been stamped out the minute they stepped on Iraqi soil because they would represent a threat to Saddam
3) - perhaps we can't say we'd be able to use the resources effectively in Afghanistan, we'd sure as hell HAVE them to use. ~150,000 troops in Iraq, God knows what other infrastructure and money would be available for use elsewhere.
4) - we can't say what the world perception would be - but invading a country (for which barely anyone thinks was justified) clearly lowered the world perception of the United States
5)- 5 is not a wild dream either. It doesn't mean it WOULD have been done (probably not) but the potential for something to be done without digging deeper into debt would be possible
6) - probably, considering everyone tries to meddle in their affairs

So before you come up with a 24-esque scenario , consider that what you label "alternate history" really isn't so.

 

[Atreus21]

Originally posted by: Kaieye
Would you protest against the White House for being "weak" or "ineffective"?

Yes.

Would our economy be much stronger today?

Don't know.

I think that we should have pumped in a lot more $$ into groups like the CIA or special forces to quietly neutralize the possible threat of these radical groups or thugs. I know that it is difficult to locate and eradicate these vermin but we can't identify who the target is sometimes.

Discuss

Plausibly.

 

[NoStateofMind]

Originally posted by: sirjonk

Originally posted by: Arkaign

Originally posted by: tvarad
If the Iraq war had not happened:

1) Saddam would have provided a natural counter-weight to Iran
2) Al-Qaeda would never have a base in Iraq
3) The U.S. would have the resources to tackle the real problem area: the Afghanistan/Pakistan border (and the Pakistani military establishment with it's nuclear weapons)
4) The world would not have lost it's respect for the U.S.
5) A lot of friendly nations would not have withdrawn crucial support in the fight against terror
5) The billions that the war is costing could have been used in the U.S. to tackle recessionary pressures
6) The Middle-East would still be the same medieval backwater that it is today

Feel free to add to the list

^^^ Ouch but true.

7) The Republicans wouldn't look like total fucking idiots.

8) Al Qaeda would not have had their global coordination disrupted for the past 5 years and instead of focusing on Iraq they would have succeeded in their attempt to dirty bomb Los Angeles killing millions.

Or not. Who knows? WTF is the point of asking 'what if' when no one can know what the hell would have happened? Iraq is a mistake, granted, but saying everything would have turned up roses if we didn't go there is just bs.

This is like a fap thread for alternate historians.

Please find me one comrade with a nuke. There isn't one nor would there have been. All you have is your fear mongering to whip people into submission.

The second part I agree with, nothing can change by speculating but it can be good conversation.