If Plasma is superior to LCD, and cheaper, why is it not selling well?

[mmntech]

IPS LCD panels with good LED back-lighting look very good. Though plasma IMO is and always has been the superior technology. I told my parents to get one when they were TV shopping a couple years back. Got a 52'' Samsung and it's great. Too bad Pioneer had left the market by then.

LCD though has better marketing and better penetration in stores. I suspect it's probably because LCD displays are cheaper to manufacture. You can use one production line for mobile, computer, and television monitors.

OLED is a nice technology with good blacks. Colour reproduction looks fine to me. Problem is there's still lingering issues with longevity, especially with blue subpixels IIRC. It's unlikely the cost will come down any time soon to make them worth while. Especially for large format displays, which everyone wants these days.

 

[Stuka87]

I disagree. I prefer plasma in general, but quite honestly I'd be just fine with an LED-backlit LCD.

The latest batches of LCDs are pretty good. They may not be the best in everything but they are by no means bad. Furthermore, just the fact that you get matte on the LCD is a humungous advantage for LCD. The glare on my plasma is a continual irritant. It's not a deal killer for me obviously but I suspect it is for a lot of people.

One of the main reasons I went with an LED backlit LCD (IPS) was because I have a huge living room window right next to the TV. And the TV's location is the only location it can be in the living room. A glossy screen was a no way. It being brighter also helps a lot. And it thankfully does have an ambient light sensor so it dims down in the dark for better blacks. Probably not as good as a plasma, but it works better for my situation.

 

[sm625]

lol there is no evidence that anyone in anywhere near the "normal user range" will have an SSD die on them thru the slow loss of NAND due to cells reaching their write limit. Every SSD death I've ever seen has been hardware controller failures unrelated to NAND write cycle counts.

Anyway, what do yall think of this tv:

http://www.frys.com/product/7003881?...G50PM6700%2050

 

[Druidx]

So LCD is better in everything except what matters in a display??

Funny and oh so true.

 

[Eug]

One of the main reasons I went with an LED backlit LCD (IPS) was because I have a huge living room window right next to the TV. And the TV's location is the only location it can be in the living room. A glossy screen was a no way.

If I were to buy a new TV today for my living room, it would be an LCD to replace my plasma. If I were to buy a TV panel for my home theatre, it'd be a plasma... although in reality I use a projector there.

My living room's entire back wall is a giant row of windows. My wife watches during the day and has to keep all the drapes closed while watching, and there's still glare.

EDIT:

Check out this thread (from here:

AVS Roundup of the Best-Reviewed Flat Panel TVs of 2012

Scott's Picks

If I had good control of room light, I would pick the Panasonic VT50 or, if money was tighter, the ST50. If room light was an issue, I'd choose the Sharp Elite (if money was no object), Sony HX950 (if money was only a bit of an object), or Sony HX850 (if money was more of an object). If money was a serious object, the Vizio Exx1i-A3 would be an easy choice.

BTW, this Sharp Elite LCD was reviewed by another site as being slightly better overall than the famous Kuro plasmas, and the best flat panel of all time:

http://www.hometheater.com/content/sharp-elite-pro-60x5fd-3d-led-lcd-hdtv

Is the Elite PRO-60X5FD the new all-time flat-panel champ? I’d have to say yes, by a nose.

Basically, it just confirms my own suspicions. Just as many consumers don't understand the benefits of plasma, many plasma geeks don't really appreciate the benefits and advantages of modern LCD. I found the same thing amongst some projector geeks, esp. in previous years. People get too caught up in features like blacks, and while I like deep blacks, I appreciate having flexible mounting points more.

 

[Zargon]

How does marketing impact my visual preference? I looked for nearly 6 months at many more TV's than I could care to count. I've seen calibrated plasmas. The only thing "better' about them were black levels. It still comes down to preference. No one told me "how" it should look except the people yelling about how plasma is better....

I'm not saying you are wrong about plasma, I'm saying that it's your opinion, and everyones opinion is going to vary. Just like people prefer different amounts of treble, mid, and bass in music. It doesn't matter that it was "intended" to be heard in a specific way. It matters what the person listening likes. It is no different for visuals. For people who aren't videophiles, it matters even less.

I guess to further the conversation I'll stand by my statement earlier. If it truly is marketing and dumb consumers that don't know any better, and prices are comparable, then plasma makers obviously need to change their strategy, either with better marketing or a change of tech to accommodate those people falling prey to the "lies" of the LCD sellers. Don't take my statements as a champion for LCD's because I fought it tooth and nail (as I did Plasma). Overall the tech we call HD these days still seems damned inferior overall, but at least it seems to be getting somewhat better(or my eyes are adjusting )

they are also better at fast movement in general.

I really have no idea why LCD's sell so much better, beyond them being pushed at stores.

Inferior picture quality, worse at motion, even better than the '240hz' tv's

you can get VERY nice LCD's, I have an IPS on my desk at home. But when you look at a 50" 1080p plasma, its going to generally destroy the comprable priced LCD in color qualtiy, motion clarity, and viewing angle. its going to run hotter, and be an inch thicker. it will be harder to see in a ver ybrght room for sure, and there are cases where it just wont work right

I have very large windows flanking my plasma in my living room, and occasionally I have to close the blinds because the glare will get distracting, but its not all the time, not even close, and the cost per year of a 130w TV vs a 60W tv is dollars at average usage and average us power costs. so miniscule that realistically if you can afford a 1000 dollar TV set it shouldnt even be noticable(and you shouldnt buy a tv that costs that much if you cant afford the extra dollar of power usage a month )


Im very VERY willing to say that a plasma is not the perfect TV for everyone, however, Im pretty confident that I could throw out say, 50% of people, it would fit their needs and be better in the situation than the 800 buck 'deal' LCD they snagged at best buy

 

[Druidx]

lol there is no evidence that anyone in anywhere near the "normal user range" will have an SSD die on them thru the slow loss of NAND due to cells reaching their write limit. Every SSD death I've ever seen has been hardware controller failures unrelated to NAND write cycle counts.

Anyway, what do yall think of this tv:

http://www.frys.com/product/7003881?...G50PM6700%2050

Thats a good TV for a good price.
If you're interested, here is a discussion about it on the AVS forum.
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1398982/o...series-discussion-thread-no-street-price-talk

 

[JackBurton]

Basically, it just confirms my own suspicions. Just as many consumers don't understand the benefits of plasma, many plasma geeks don't really appreciate the benefits and advantages of modern LCD. I found the same thing amongst some projector geeks, esp. in previous years. People get too caught up in features like blacks, and while I like deep blacks, I appreciate having flexible mounting points more.

The Sharp Elite has a big problem with color accuracy. It also has an issue with the picture flashing, however its been reduced substantially with the latest update. I know all too well the strength and weaknesses of this panel and will tell you I will NOT be replacing my Kuro with it. Believe me, I'd REALLY like to, but the whole color accuracy issue and narrow viewing angles are real deal breakers for me. Not to mention the quality control issues the latest batch have gone through. It also doesn't help that a VERY reputable pro calibrator basically said it was "junk" and said the Sony HX950 was a much better panel. This is a person with no bias, and basically calls it as he sees it. He actually said surprisingly, a VIZIO LCD (can't remember the exact model) calibrates very well, and recommended it.

Be careful what you read. ESPECIALLY professional review sites.

 

[Zivic]

. It also doesn't help that a VERY reputable pro calibrator basically said it was "junk" and said the Sony HX950 was a much better panel.

link to the review/comments?

 

[Eug]

I wonder how many people here have ever had a professional TV calibration done.

I had my HD CRT professionally calibrated by a well-known and popular calibrator. It was a group thing, and a bunch of us HT geeks actually flew the calibrator to our city to do this. Cost me $400 for my share. In the end I decided I would never do it again. I just didn't care enough to justify it.

 

[JackBurton]

link to the review/comments?

Hmmmm, I have to be careful how I answer this, I don't want to make it a big deal. Let's say he told me this personally. That's all I really want to say about that.

If you need more evidence than that, just disregard my comment and pretend I never said it.

 

[JackBurton]

I wonder how many people here have ever had a professional TV calibration done.

I had my HD CRT professionally calibrated by a well-known and popular calibrator. It was a group thing, and a bunch of us HT geeks actually flew the calibrator to our city to do this. Cost me $400 for my share. In the end I decided I would never do it again. I just didn't care enough to justify it.

Both of mine are.

 

[dagamer34]

they are also better at fast movement in general.

I really have no idea why LCD's sell so much better, beyond them being pushed at stores.

Inferior picture quality, worse at motion, even better than the '240hz' tv's

you can get VERY nice LCD's, I have an IPS on my desk at home. But when you look at a 50" 1080p plasma, its going to generally destroy the comprable priced LCD in color qualtiy, motion clarity, and viewing angle. its going to run hotter, and be an inch thicker. it will be harder to see in a ver ybrght room for sure, and there are cases where it just wont work right

I have very large windows flanking my plasma in my living room, and occasionally I have to close the blinds because the glare will get distracting, but its not all the time, not even close, and the cost per year of a 130w TV vs a 60W tv is dollars at average usage and average us power costs. so miniscule that realistically if you can afford a 1000 dollar TV set it shouldnt even be noticable(and you shouldnt buy a tv that costs that much if you cant afford the extra dollar of power usage a month )


Im very VERY willing to say that a plasma is not the perfect TV for everyone, however, Im pretty confident that I could throw out say, 50% of people, it would fit their needs and be better in the situation than the 800 buck 'deal' LCD they snagged at best buy

Because the smallest plasma TVs you can get are 50" and $1000. You are surprised people vote with their wallet first over quality? Really? :hmm:

 

[dagamer34]

I wonder how many people here have ever had a professional TV calibration done.

I had my HD CRT professionally calibrated by a well-known and popular calibrator. It was a group thing, and a bunch of us HT geeks actually flew the calibrator to our city to do this. Cost me $400 for my share. In the end I decided I would never do it again. I just didn't care enough to justify it.

I think professional color calibration is only worth it if you can 100% control the lighting in the room all the time (basically dedicated home theater room where you can make it pitch black). While I'm sure colors will be accurate if calibrated elsewhere, you aren't going to get that same pop effect when you've got bright lights shining from your windows. And while YOU may care about color accuracy, your spouse and kids might not.

 

[JackBurton]

I think professional color calibration is only worth it if you can 100% control the lighting in the room all the time (basically dedicated home theater room where you can make it pitch black). While I'm sure colors will be accurate if calibrated elsewhere, you aren't going to get that same pop effect when you've got bright lights shining from your windows. And while YOU may care about color accuracy, your spouse and kids might not.

That's what ISF Day and ISF Night are for. One mode calibrated for daytime and one calibrated for nighttime viewing.

 

[Eug]

That's what ISF Day and ISF Night are for. One mode calibrated for daytime and one calibrated for nighttime viewing.

Well, if you're going to do this, you really should have multiple different daytime calibration settings. However, nobody does, because it's a royal pain.

 

[Zivic]

I wonder how many people here have ever had a professional TV calibration done.

I had my HD CRT professionally calibrated by a well-known and popular calibrator. It was a group thing, and a bunch of us HT geeks actually flew the calibrator to our city to do this. Cost me $400 for my share. In the end I decided I would never do it again. I just didn't care enough to justify it.

I have had mine done by Chad B. for video I will continue to do it if the display is higher end.

 

[Zivic]

Well, if you're going to do this, you really should have multiple different daytime calibration settings. However, nobody does, because it's a royal pain.

mine are done this way, and it isn't a royal pain. I generally keep it on night setting

 

[Eug]

mine are done this way, and it isn't a royal pain. I generally keep it on night setting

OK I stand corrected. 0.01% of the population cares enough to do this.

 

[wirednuts]

OLED is a nice technology with good blacks. Colour reproduction looks fine to me. Problem is there's still lingering issues with longevity, especially with blue subpixels IIRC. It's unlikely the cost will come down any time soon to make them worth while. Especially for large format displays, which everyone wants these days.

yeah its the same problems they have been having since the early 2000's. they just cant make the blue pixels last more then a year or so.

at the csva show this year, sony had their little 13" oled tv on display again. same one we have seen for years. and, it didn't work:$

whoever does figure out the oled problems, are going to make a hell of a lot of money. TV's as thin as a pane of glass, all the electronics are going to have to be in the power adapter or the stand...

 

[Zivic]

OK I stand corrected. 0.01% of the population cares enough to do this.

and to the small %, things like that matter... which is why this thread even exists. the majority are stupid and don't care about the PQ of their display; as long as it is 'good enough'

 

[Stuka87]

yeah its the same problems they have been having since the early 2000's. they just cant make the blue pixels last more then a year or so.

at the csva show this year, sony had their little 13" oled tv on display again. same one we have seen for years. and, it didn't work:$

whoever does figure out the oled problems, are going to make a hell of a lot of money. TV's as thin as a pane of glass, all the electronics are going to have to be in the power adapter or the stand...

I know with the OLED's used on phones they have horrible color replication. Is this because of the way the phone makers have them setup, or is it a more general issue with OLED's?

 

[JackBurton]

mine are done this way, and it isn't a royal pain. I generally keep it on night setting

Yep. If you have your set done by a reputable calibrator, this should be a given. I have both modes on both of my plasmas, however like Zivic, I normally just leave it on ISF Night. And unlike LCD owners, I don't have to switch it to "game mode" when I play games.

 

[dagamer34]

I know with the OLED's used on phones they have horrible color replication. Is this because of the way the phone makers have them setup, or is it a more general issue with OLED's?

Samsung makes 97% of the world's OLED screens, which I would guess go mostly into their Galaxy S line of phones. It's their terrible screen calibration, not the OLED tech itself.

 

[Eug]

Yep. If you have your set done by a reputable calibrator, this should be a given. I have both modes on both of my plasmas, however like Zivic, I normally just leave it on ISF Night. And unlike LCD owners, I don't have to switch it to "game mode" when I play games.

You missed the entire point of my post. If you are going to argue for a professionally calibrated daytime mode, you really should have multiple daytime modes. "Daytime" is not a fixed environment.