If IT is a field where there is more jobs then there is people going into it...

[brianmanahan]

Companies can't outsource IT jobs so it makes sense that people would go into that field.

they can, but it has a tendency to bite them in the butt

the last 2 companies i worked for had originally outsourced the majority of their software development process to india, only to discover that the geographical and communication time barriers turned their deliverables from OK quality to unacceptable quality

so they gradually opened up more in-house positions again, to the point where about %75 of the developers are full time on-site positions.

 

[brianmanahan]

I have a friend in a similar position as you. He works in a large university doing virtualization and data center work. He told me that he has a friend who works at a large datacenter company who told him that if he came there, he would probably make double. My friend wouldn't do it because he'd "lose too much vacation time." The great irony is that he is a major cheap a** so it isn't like he actually takes cool vacations so I'm not sure why he doesn't jump ship.

maybe he places more value on low stress and work/life balance than you do?

i could probably be making 150$k consulting, but i would rather just make 100$k at a place with relatively low stress, constant 40 hour weeks, lots of vacation time for me to unwind, and a good pension and 401k match.

 

[Insomniator]

I'm almost afraid to ask, but I will -- what kind of patching job were you looking to fill that had you unable to find competent employees? Are we talking Windows boxes?

Combination of Windows and Linux. Its not difficult, just need to be detail oriented since there are a ton of servers with specific schedules and instructions and you need decent grasp of troubleshooting when something goes wrong.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

maybe he places more value on low stress and work/life balance than you do?

i could probably be making 150$k consulting, but i would rather just make 100$k at a place with relatively low stress, constant 40 hour weeks, lots of vacation time for me to unwind, and a good pension and 401k match.

I doubt anyone favors low stress and work/life balance more than me, even though I left a cushy job with awesome benefits and perks. The idiots in management were just too much to deal with.

 

[xaeniac]

IT is horrible.

 

[Red Squirrel]

I think you are mistaken, it's more like there's tons of IT people and not enough jobs. Everybody wants to do "computers" these days. Whether it's standard IT, programming, sales, consulting etc... Most companies now outsource that stuff as they see it as an expense and at the same level as janitorial services or building maintenance. They don't really want to waste their time or have any liabilities so they farm it out. The companies with big strong unions tend to insource stuff more though. Or more like, they tend to keep stuff insourced.

I got lucky with the company I landed a job at since while I would not say they have a "strong" union, it's at least insourced IT and I don't really see them change that as we are sorta an outsourcer in a way so if we outsourced there would be 2 levels of outsourcing, probably a bit much. Now I work at the NOC which is not really IT but similar field I guess, and I really don't see them outsourcing that given all the credentials we have to core systems like the switching, fibre optics etc... Then again companies can make stupid decisions in the name of money. Our biggest fear is that they relocate our NOC to another part of the company, but there arn't really any signs saying that may happen. Our NOC does a lot more than any other NOC though so if they did strip our jobs away they would have to spread it to several other NOCs and probably hire more people... not worth it.

If I did lose this job though, there really is not much else I could go to. I would probably have to go back to school and look into trades or something. I'd probably go for electrical/plumbing or maybe just general contracting and start my own business. It's a lot more work than I realize though. Just doing my basement alone took a while, heck, just bringing all the materials in the basement took about 4 hours. That would be unacceptable from a customer's point of view, why would someone pay me 4 hours and the job did not even start yet. Mind you I could specialize for small jobs, it's hard to get contractors for those as they're all too busy on big jobs.

 

[brianmanahan]

IT is horrible.

it doesn't pay much, but at least the hours are lousy! :awe:

actually though, it is the easiest way i know of to make 100$k per year. except maybe pharmacy.

 

[jlee]

I think you are mistaken, it's more like there's tons of IT people and not enough jobs. Everybody wants to do "computers" these days. Whether it's standard IT, programming, sales, consulting etc... Most companies now outsource that stuff as they see it as an expense and at the same level as janitorial services or building maintenance. They don't really want to waste their time or have any liabilities so they farm it out. The companies with big strong unions tend to insource stuff more though. Or more like, they tend to keep stuff insourced.

I got lucky with the company I landed a job at since while I would not say they have a "strong" union, it's at least insourced IT and I don't really see them change that as we are sorta an outsourcer in a way so if we outsourced there would be 2 levels of outsourcing, probably a bit much. Now I work at the NOC which is not really IT but similar field I guess, and I really don't see them outsourcing that given all the credentials we have to core systems like the switching, fibre optics etc... Then again companies can make stupid decisions in the name of money. Our biggest fear is that they relocate our NOC to another part of the company, but there arn't really any signs saying that may happen. Our NOC does a lot more than any other NOC though so if they did strip our jobs away they would have to spread it to several other NOCs and probably hire more people... not worth it.

If I did lose this job though, there really is not much else I could go to. I would probably have to go back to school and look into trades or something. I'd probably go for electrical/plumbing or maybe just general contracting and start my own business. It's a lot more work than I realize though. Just doing my basement alone took a while, heck, just bringing all the materials in the basement took about 4 hours. That would be unacceptable from a customer's point of view, why would someone pay me 4 hours and the job did not even start yet. Mind you I could specialize for small jobs, it's hard to get contractors for those as they're all too busy on big jobs.

This must really depend where you are. We've been understaffed for two years and can't find good people fast enough.

 

[dave_the_nerd]

This must really depend where you are. We've been understaffed for two years and can't find good people fast enough.

"Good" is the keyword. Degree and cert mills crank out busloads of CCNAs and ITT-AS types, but most of them can barely remember what an IP address is.

Meanwhile, basically every kid who was ever good at drawing can get a bachelor's degree in graphic design from a for-profit, and after 2-3 classes, they're, like, totally expert web designers.

IT is kind of like the Liberal Arts that way. Unless you're in the top ~5%, you're never going to come close to making a living at it.

What matters in the long run is passion and ambition.

 

[brianmanahan]

so are you people counting software development as a part of IT?

cuz i always do, but i am thinking that a lot of people dont

 

[xaeniac]

"Good" is the keyword. Degree and cert mills crank out busloads of CCNAs and ITT-AS types, but most of them can barely remember what an IP address is.

Meanwhile, basically every kid who was ever good at drawing can get a bachelor's degree in graphic design from a for-profit, and after 2-3 classes, they're, like, totally expert web designers.

IT is kind of like the Liberal Arts that way. Unless you're in the top ~5%, you're never going to come close to making a living at it.

What matters in the long run is passion and ambition.

Agreed; IT has too many individuals that are faking it and will never be making it because they are just not talented in the field. Then IT individuals wonder why they are looked down and frowned upon. Execs look at IT like they do a janitor; Bean counters do not like IT unless they are generating revenue, which is not always the case. Unless one is a consultant they are a constant drain on expenses. Also technical fields have a ceiling that will limit you to going any higher. Research the halo effect- Execs are being taught it and actually implementing it. IT folks are looked upon "one trick ponies" in many circumstances with no business acumen.

 

[Red Squirrel]

so are you people counting software development as a part of IT?

cuz i always do, but i am thinking that a lot of people dont

I tend to count it, but software development is pretty much non existent here. It's outsourced to Toronto or other places down south, or often India. Sadly most IT jobs also don't allow people to write code because of these outsourcer contracts being in place.

I could have solved so many things when I worked in IT if only I was allowed to write code. Sometimes I would be bold and sneak something through though, especially stuff like login scripts where nobody is really going to notice that it was written in house and not just a program that was downloaded off the internet. So much easier to write a little C++ app than to try to use some convoluted workaround to do something specific. One time I actually wrote a log parser and management actually did approve it, but it was a rare occurrence.

What's funny is my stuff actually worked, the outsourcers typically can't code their way out of a paper bag. *cough* CGI. Sometimes I was forced to pull stuff out or not allowed to deploy it even though it worked 100%. Instead they'd spent months of meetings trying to figure out a way to do the exact same thing I did in a few hours. Pretty hilarious really. Thankfully at my current job they're a bit more lenient about that. We can code stuff but only stuff that our department will use.

It's actually surprising the amount of IT people that have no clue about coding though. I don't consider myself a super 1337 coder, but I'm actually a God to most people.

 

[dave_the_nerd]

so are you people counting software development as a part of IT?

cuz i always do, but i am thinking that a lot of people dont

People in IT tend to. I think because most of us know a programming or scripting language or two, and consider ourselves capable of programming at a certain level, thanks primarily to StackExchange.

Software Engineers tend not to see it the other way around though.

Although I'm an IT-ish person, I personally draw a distinction between the jobs/responsibilities:

My primary function involves using applications somebody else wrote to maintain systems that other people within our organization use. If I program something, it's probably a script, for me, to make some aspect of my job easier.

A programmer's primary function is writing software that other people use, often people outside the organization. If they maintain or admin a system, it's typically something used by programmers for development-related activities. (Test servers, SCM, build infrastructure, etc.)

 

[Wyndru]

Definitely agree.

Wyndru, I have a friend in a similar position as you. He works in a large university doing virtualization and data center work. He told me that he has a friend who works at a large datacenter company who told him that if he came there, he would probably make double. My friend wouldn't do it because he'd "lose too much vacation time." The great irony is that he is a major cheap ass so it isn't like he actually takes cool vacations so I'm not sure why he doesn't jump ship. If he were in his 50s and was just looking to coast to retirement, I could understand but this guy is in his early to mid 30s. My advice to you is to jump ship, make some money, and then maybe when you're nearing retirement, jump in a cushy IT job in government and coast, relatively stress free, into retirement. That is my intention -- I'll do consulting now to rake in the money and then when I'm in my 50s and the house is paid off, I'll jump into an easy job and relax. Of course, a friend and I are talking about starting our own consulting company so that may derail my "take easy job when I'm in my 50s" strategy.

Yeah, my situation is pretty shitty, don't get me wrong, I'm happy to be employed...but it still sucks. It's a smaller school district with 6 buildings. I brought the district up from Novell to a Windows network with a blade enclosure all virtualized and an eva. The problem is that they treat IT staff as non-essential, even though each classroom has a ton of technology now. They laid off the other employee so now I'm the only IT at the district so automation is key, and I've learned a lot but at the same time I'm way under payed for what I do there. Anything IT related has to be approved (blessed, as some of the admins call it) by me. I'm project manager on any tech upgrades and I even have to do the purchasing side of it.

I'm just chugging along at this place making way less than I should be, all so I can get my 30 years in and retire with full pay and health for life. I honestly don't know if I can make it that long though, I'm only 7 years in. And you mentioned vacation, I have tons of it each year, I think it's close to 60 days between vacation, personal and sick, but if I can get a couple of days in here and there I'm lucky. I can't ever leave for a week, if I did my phone would just be ringing off the hook.

So yeah, for me IT hasn't been that great so far. And I'm on a couple of state lists with excellent test scores (between 90-100%) and I rarely get any letters for jobs. The last canvas letter I got I sent in and didn't even get a call for an interview.

 

[brianmanahan]

one thing i have found too is that software devs need to have a pretty solid understanding of how the business works, at least related to the applications they develop and support

whereas general IT doesn't typically need to have much of a clue about most aspects of the business

i worked in insurance once, and some of the network and systems admins couldn't tell the difference between a limit and a deductible

 

[Imp]

If I did lose this job though, there really is not much else I could go to. I would probably have to go back to school and look into trades or something. I'd probably go for electrical/plumbing or maybe just general contracting and start my own business. It's a lot more work than I realize though. Just doing my basement alone took a while, heck, just bringing all the materials in the basement took about 4 hours. That would be unacceptable from a customer's point of view, why would someone pay me 4 hours and the job did not even start yet. Mind you I could specialize for small jobs, it's hard to get contractors for those as they're all too busy on big jobs.

Because people don't know any better. We've done multiple renovations. Some days consisted of the contractor dropping shit off.

My neighbor has been renovating his income-property (he got a bunch from daddy) for over 3 years now. That's a few grand of lost income per month. Similar case for at least 3 other houses I walk by to work on a daily basis. They have to have been renovating for at least a few years now.

My guess is that none of these people have contracts with deadlines and penalties for finishing late -- sorry, "incentives" for finishing early. Contractors probably tell them how busy they are, then there's scheduling in all the sub-contractors, and the fact that it's wise to overbook so you have a guaranteed paycheck you can drag out over the next few years.

 

[dave_the_nerd]

one thing i have found too is that software devs need to have a pretty solid understanding of how the business works, at least related to the applications they develop and support

whereas general IT doesn't typically need to have much of a clue about most aspects of the business

i worked in insurance once, and some of the network and systems admins couldn't tell the difference between a limit and a deductible

Heh. This is truth. It really can come down to your area of responsibility, what systems you have to support, and what your focus is on.

Likewise, you could probably line up the MS Office development team, and I'd be surprised if 1 in 3 knew what a DB9 connector looked like.

 

[Markbnj]

People in IT tend to. I think because most of us know a programming or scripting language or two, and consider ourselves capable of programming at a certain level, thanks primarily to StackExchange.

I think people lump software development into IT because they don't know what else to do with it, and they all work with computers, don't they? And that really is about all the overlap programming has with IT.

 

[OverVolt]

Just wait until they advertise ITRDS Information Technology Retraining Development School, an online hepraderp program that'll match with you no jerbs cause you learned no skills!

 

[Staples]

The op doesn't make sense.

I am not sure how salaries have changed but I assume that since we recruit so many people from India and China, salaries have probably gone down and qualifications have also gone up.


Another observation is that most developers are kids who are under 35. Guess the job isn't all it's cracked up to be if all those kids leave by their young 30s.

 

[Wyndru]

The op doesn't make sense.

I am not sure how salaries have changed but I assume that since we recruit so many people from India and China, salaries have probably gone down and qualifications have also gone up.


Another observation is that most developers are kids who are under 35. Guess the job isn't all it's cracked up to be if all those kids leave by their young 30s.

It's sitting in a cube writing/debugging lines of code for 8 hours a day. You need to really love it to stick with it. People get burned out. And now with the salaries so low its probably even harder to keep people in those positions.

 

[brianmanahan]

It's sitting in a cube writing/debugging lines of code for 8 hours a day. You need to really love it to stick with it. People get burned out. And now with the salaries so low its probably even harder to keep people in those positions.

your definition of low must be different than mine, cuz 100$k after 5-10 years of work seems to be better than "so low"

 

[eldorado99]

your definition of low must be different than mine, cuz 100$k after 5-10 years of work seems to be better than "so low"

do you have any rental income?

 

[Wyndru]

your definition of low must be different than mine, cuz 100$k after 5-10 years of work seems to be better than "so low"

I don't know where you are located, but I've worked with a lot of companies with development teams, and very few of the employees made over 80k, even seniors. Like I mentioned earlier, opening salaries for devs in my area is about 40k (from what I've seen). In 1999 I only made 36k out of college, but I was only doing simple rewrite tasks (y2k projects). I left the field after 2 years and got a job at a financial firm doing basic network and system technician work for 38k. So in my experience Dev jobs haven't been the high salaries I would have expected, but as I saw earlier in the thread people are making 80k doing what I do now for much less, so maybe my area just has lower salaries or high competition.

 

[brianmanahan]

do you have any rental income?

do REITs count?

if not, then... no