If Iraq has Scuds and other banned weapons...

Nemesis77

Diamond Member
Jun 21, 2001
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Why don't they use them? I mean, they would be alot more effective at waging this war.

And before you say "What about those missiles they fired in Kuwait!?". To my knowledge, those have been Al-Samouds, Al-Husseins and Silkworms. No Scuds as far as I can tell.

What will happen if Iraq never uses any of the banned weapons, and it's found out that it's because they don't have any? Then what? "ooops!"?
 

Morph

Banned
Oct 14, 1999
747
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Scuds are long-range missiles. How would they help Iraq? They could fire some at Israel like they did in the last Gulf War, but that was more to harass than to accomplish anything militarily. IF they still have any, they won't use them because they'd just be giving Bush justification for his Iraq invasion/crusade.
 

Nemesis77

Diamond Member
Jun 21, 2001
7,329
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Originally posted by: Morph
Scuds are long-range missiles. How would they help Iraq? They could fire some at Israel like they did in the last Gulf War, but that was more to harass than to accomplish anything militarily. IF they still have any, they won't use them because they'd just be giving Bush justification for his Iraq invasion/crusade.

The way it seems right now (assuming that they do have banned weapons) is that:

1. they don't use those weapons and face a certain defeat
2. They use those weapons and get a fighting chance against the coalition.
 

dahunan

Lifer
Jan 10, 2002
18,191
3
0
If they have any N,B, or C weapons are you suggesting that they use them now or when the forces get closer to Baghdad?
 

Bleep

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
3,972
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You must not be paying much attention to what is going on.
All but 1 of the missles fired by the Iraqui forces have been banned modified Al-Samouds. If fact they just captured a couple of them today in Northern Iraq.

Also the seersucker missles are also banned as are the silkworms. because they exceed the range requirement.

Bleep
 

Mookow

Lifer
Apr 24, 2001
10,162
0
0
Originally posted by: Nemesis77
Originally posted by: Morph
Scuds are long-range missiles. How would they help Iraq? They could fire some at Israel like they did in the last Gulf War, but that was more to harass than to accomplish anything militarily. IF they still have any, they won't use them because they'd just be giving Bush justification for his Iraq invasion/crusade.

The way it seems right now (assuming that they do have banned weapons) is that:

1. they don't use those weapons and face a certain defeat
2. They use those weapons and get a fighting chance against the coalition.

Right now Saddam is praying for international support. Once the coalition forces get really close or even enter Bagdad, I think he will launch them
 

Feldenak

Lifer
Jan 31, 2003
14,090
2
81
Originally posted by: Mookow
Originally posted by: Nemesis77
Originally posted by: Morph
Scuds are long-range missiles. How would they help Iraq? They could fire some at Israel like they did in the last Gulf War, but that was more to harass than to accomplish anything militarily. IF they still have any, they won't use them because they'd just be giving Bush justification for his Iraq invasion/crusade.

The way it seems right now (assuming that they do have banned weapons) is that:

1. they don't use those weapons and face a certain defeat
2. They use those weapons and get a fighting chance against the coalition.

Right now Saddam is praying for international support. Once the coalition forces get really close or even enter Bagdad, I think he will launch them

Pretty much my opinion as well...plus coalition troops are too spread out in the desert. If Saddam waits until the troops get closer to Baghdad, he gets a larger, more stationary target for WMD.
 

TheCorm

Diamond Member
Nov 5, 2000
4,326
0
0
Originally posted by: Feldenak
Originally posted by: Mookow
Originally posted by: Nemesis77
Originally posted by: Morph
Scuds are long-range missiles. How would they help Iraq? They could fire some at Israel like they did in the last Gulf War, but that was more to harass than to accomplish anything militarily. IF they still have any, they won't use them because they'd just be giving Bush justification for his Iraq invasion/crusade.

The way it seems right now (assuming that they do have banned weapons) is that:

1. they don't use those weapons and face a certain defeat
2. They use those weapons and get a fighting chance against the coalition.

Right now Saddam is praying for international support. Once the coalition forces get really close or even enter Bagdad, I think he will launch them

Pretty much my opinion as well...plus coalition troops are too spread out in the desert. If Saddam waits until the troops get closer to Baghdad, he gets a larger, more stationary target for WMD.

I Hear that!...
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: Nemesis77
Why don't they use them? I mean, they would be alot more effective at waging this war.

And before you say "What about those missiles they fired in Kuwait!?". To my knowledge, those have been Al-Samouds, Al-Husseins and Silkworms. No Scuds as far as I can tell.

What will happen if Iraq never uses any of the banned weapons, and it's found out that it's because they don't have any? Then what? "ooops!"?

The weapons fired into kuwait are weapons they are not supposed to have. The coalition forces have also done an excellent job moving into Iraq quickly to lessen the ability of IRaq to fire these into a neighbor country.
 

gplanet

Senior member
Jan 5, 2002
729
0
0
Iraq has launched like 20 missiles at Kuwait. All of these weapons exceed, by far I think, the maximum range allowable by the UN Resolutions (isn't this something Saddam agreed to after Gulf War?) Ok, so they're not WMD, but they are still banned. Weapons inspectors in Iraq for months didn't find these missiles that were fired. The Iraqi regime should be taken out of power just for not telling the inspectors where to find the banned weapons instead of searching for months, years.. because we can take them out of power if we want to therefore we should.

About Saddam using WMD, I doubt it. Saddam himself can't use WMD, and we don't even know if he's still alive. By the time he realizes he's screwed he may not be able to get an order out, or nobody will follow it.
 

n0cmonkey

Elite Member
Jun 10, 2001
42,936
1
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Originally posted by: Nemesis77
Why don't they use them? I mean, they would be alot more effective at waging this war.

And before you say "What about those missiles they fired in Kuwait!?". To my knowledge, those have been Al-Samouds, Al-Husseins and Silkworms. No Scuds as far as I can tell.

What will happen if Iraq never uses any of the banned weapons, and it's found out that it's because they don't have any? Then what? "ooops!"?

Do not question the motives and actions of the New American Empire. It will not look good, when it is your turn to be judged.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,268
126
Originally posted by: gplanet
Iraq has launched like 20 missiles at Kuwait. All of these weapons exceed, by far I think, the maximum range allowable by the UN Resolutions (isn't this something Saddam agreed to after Gulf War?) Ok, so they're not WMD, but they are still banned. Weapons inspectors in Iraq for months didn't find these missiles that were fired. The Iraqi regime should be taken out of power just for not telling the inspectors where to find the banned weapons instead of searching for months, years.. because we can take them out of power if we want to therefore we should.

About Saddam using WMD, I doubt it. Saddam himself can't use WMD, and we don't even know if he's still alive. By the time he realizes he's screwed he may not be able to get an order out, or nobody will follow it.

What a great reason to go to war. We should because we can. Hey, if someone can take you out, should they? Jesus Christ on a bike.
 

exp

Platinum Member
May 9, 2001
2,150
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0
What will happen if Iraq never uses any of the banned weapons, and it's found out that it's because they don't have any? Then what? "ooops!"?
I seriously doubt that will be the case but (hypothetically speaking) if it is then I would be absolutely livid at the U.S. government, particularly because of the Powell tapes presented to the UN. If Saddam has no WMDs then that means those audio intercepts were blatant forgeries.

Now I expect my government to use small-to-moderate (depending on the size of the crisis at hand) lies, as all countries do, to further the national interest, but perpetrating a gigantic hoax like that is irresponsible and absolutely unacceptable relative to the threat Iraq poses, because such a fabrication (i) is so easily exposed, critically damaging U.S. credibility in the process (ii) stirs up anti-American sentiment around the world and (iii) costs lives for no reason whatsoever. Assuming Bush knew about such a trick impeachment would obviously be appropriate at that point.

But like I said, I really doubt that will be the case. Occam's Razor, right? Saddam has a history of illegally developing WMDs and concealing them from the UN, so his culpability seems to be *infinitely* more likely than some vast government conspiracy. The real question is: If the U.S. does find WMDs will the rest of the world believe it or will they remain stubbornly committed to the conspiracy theory and label the finds as American plants?

The way it seems right now (assuming that they do have banned weapons) is that:

1. they don't use those weapons and face a certain defeat
2. They use those weapons and get a fighting chance against the coalition.
Those two premises are false. WMDs (with the exception of a significant nuclear stockpile, not applicable in this situation) would not grant Saddam "a fighting chance against the coalition"...they are essentially worthless when it comes to influencing the course of the war as a whole.

WMDs would help a little, but even then their effects are limited against troops with high quality NBC protective equipment such as that employed by U.S. and British forces. If the Iraqis used them they would probably end up killing more of their own troops than the enemy. The main benefit of WMDs would be to make individual coalition soldiers less efficient by forcing them into cumbersome gear, which is a real nuisance but not enough to genuinely shift the balance of power. To have any effect on the outcome of the war WMDs would have to be used on civilians in an attempt to indirectly influence the war by affecting public opinion. AFAICT there are two options to choose from there. Saddam could use WMDs...

(i) ...on the Iraqi people. This would have at least three benefits. First, it would instill more fear to help keep the Iraqis in line and fighting against the invaders, but thus far the Fedayeen seems to be handling this task quite well on its own. Second, Saddam would undoubtedly blame the deaths on the coalition, filming dozens of bodies strewn about the streets of a town and beaming the images across the Arab world as (probably highly effective) propaganda. And third, driving up the total body count by any means available would be handy as a last ditch effort to make the war *politically* disastrous beyond recovery for the coalition governments.

(ii) ...on the American and/or British people. Here his reasons would be two-fold, I think. First, simply to get a tiny bit of revenge against his enemy by attacking people that are far more vulnerable to the effects of WMDs than their uniformed counterparts. Second, to frighten the American/British public into backing off its government's stance, though it seems more likely that such an attack would only build hatred for Saddam and redouble support for the war.

No possible WMD strike would have any significant effect on the war being fought on the ground. Their use would be more geared towards a psychological or political victory. The problem with such a goal is that the stigma attached to WMD use would *far* outweigh any benefits, particularly because Saddam's current strategy is to play the role of the poor, persecuted Innocent in an attempt to curry favor with the international community and possibly provoke an outside intervention. So in that respect he has nothing to gain from using WMDs and everything to lose.

Saddam is not stupid. He knows that his forces cannot directly oppose the might of the U.S. military, even with WMDs. Since he is banking everything on a political resolution to the conflict, justifying the invasion in the eyes of many viewers around the world by using WMDs would be counterproductive. If Saddam does use them, I think it will be a sure sign that he has given up on his political efforts, and in doing so conceded the war. At that point he would simply be firing indiscriminately, trying to take as many of the enemy as possible down with him regardless of the political backlash (which of course won't matter to him when he's dead).
 

Spyro

Diamond Member
Dec 4, 2001
3,366
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0
Originally posted by: n0cmonkey
Originally posted by: Nemesis77
Why don't they use them? I mean, they would be alot more effective at waging this war.

And before you say "What about those missiles they fired in Kuwait!?". To my knowledge, those have been Al-Samouds, Al-Husseins and Silkworms. No Scuds as far as I can tell.

What will happen if Iraq never uses any of the banned weapons, and it's found out that it's because they don't have any? Then what? "ooops!"?

Do not question the motives and actions of the New American Empire. It will not look good, when it is your turn to be judged.

LOL, I think not monkeyboy ;)
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: Nemesis77
Why don't they use them? I mean, they would be alot more effective at waging this war.

And before you say "What about those missiles they fired in Kuwait!?". To my knowledge, those have been Al-Samouds, Al-Husseins and Silkworms. No Scuds as far as I can tell.

What will happen if Iraq never uses any of the banned weapons, and it's found out that it's because they don't have any? Then what? "ooops!"?


the AL Hussein is a scud.
linkage

The Iraqis had four versions: Scud itself (180-km range), longer-range Scud (half warhead weight, extra range attained by burning all propellant immediately rather than steadily through the flight of the missile),
Al Hussein (650-km, attained by reducing warhead weight to 250 kg and increasing the fuel load by 15 percent),[/b] and Al Abbas (800-km, achieved by reducing warhead weight to 125 kg, with 30 percent more fuel). Al Abbas could be fired only from static launchers; all of the others could be fired from mobile or static sites. Only the original Scud and the minimally modified version were particularly succesful."
 

FoBoT

No Lifer
Apr 30, 2001
63,084
15
81
fobot.com
Al-Samouds exceed the range limitations, they just found some a day or so ago

it doesn't matter if they find anything or not to me
 

Alistar7

Lifer
May 13, 2002
11,978
0
0
So have enough people finally convinced you that whatever you want to call those missilles they still went BEYOND UN ALLOWED LIMITS, therefore making them illegal, banned, etc....?

Any comments on the Chineese ones? What about the Russian weapons? Maybe we should forget about that and mke sure they get the billions owed to them by Saddam, France and Germany too, for their support in the UN, they were supposed to be getting the sanctions lifted and inspections stopped, you guys are not still mad the US didn't play along in your $$$ making schemes? At least we are not "invading" you for violating resolutions you yourself signed....? Either way we will make sure that you all get significant profits, I mean, roles in rebuilding, your motivation for money seems to compel you to action in ways nothing else apparently will, might as well take good use of your "compassionate" acitivism. The Iraqi people would like to thank you once again for making deals with their leader and doing everything in your power to make sure he kept his own....

DOH, I wanted the creator of this thread to respond, but he logged out 2 minutes after I posted, sorry I didn't get a response from you Nem.....
 

MadRat

Lifer
Oct 14, 1999
11,999
307
126
I'd be more worried about kamikazi attacks from aircraft flying into Qatar. If a Silkworm can penetrate the defensive network, then surely a pilot could, too.
 

EeyoreX

Platinum Member
Oct 27, 2002
2,864
0
0
Personally, I think he may or may not use them. It's hard to know until something happens.

I think, if the war is quick, he won't use them. I feel the regime would continue to try and hold off coalition forces more "conventionally" (note, more). If the war drags on for a long time and the regime is unable to do much damage to the coalition, he might. As soon as they are used, the war is legitamized globally. (IMO it is already long since legit, and is a response to Saddam failing to uphold the rules of the cease fire that was signed 12 years ago).

\Dan

[EDIT]Several times I refer to "they" I refer to WMD
 

Alistar7

Lifer
May 13, 2002
11,978
0
0
silkworms fly low to the ground, lower than any aircraft they could put in the sky, for the 60 seconds it would last before being taken out, notice he hasnt even tried to put ANYTHING into the air..


what ever happened to that cessna???
 

BaliBabyDoc

Lifer
Jan 20, 2001
10,737
0
0
It's a specious argument to say Al Samouds justify this invasion. The range of an empty or nearly empty rocket is irrelevant. The purpose behind the restrictions was to prevent Iraq from attacking neighboring states and certainly ISRAEL without limiting their legitimate needs for self defense.

This SCUD is dangerous. Some of the missiles fired by Iraq certainly exceed the limit set by the UN . . . but who cares? UN restrictions made it possible for the US to stage its attack from Kuwait . . . so apparently they've been an unqualified success.

 

Alistar7

Lifer
May 13, 2002
11,978
0
0
Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc
It's a specious argument to say Al Samouds justify this invasion. The range of an empty or nearly empty rocket is irrelevant. The purpose behind the restrictions was to prevent Iraq from attacking neighboring states and certainly ISRAEL without limiting their legitimate needs for self defense.

This SCUD is dangerous. Some of the missiles fired by Iraq certainly exceed the limit set by the UN . . . but who cares? UN restrictions made it possible for the US to stage its attack from Kuwait . . . so apparently they've been an unqualified success.

Exactly, people can have absolute proof he hid and used banned weapons and are still convinced he was somehow fully complying as required. Thanks for pointing out the obvious lack of ground for that arguement anymore. He still has UN banned weapons and is willing to launch them on his neighbors, see Kuwait City.

UN restrictions did not make anything possible for the US in Kuwait, the fact we liberated them is why we are staging from there. Unlike the French, they are willing to pay back for their US fought for freedom. Saddam has launched @ 50 BANNED missilles, one has hit, the rest have failed with the majority being struck down by the new patriot systems. Kuwait has these themselves BTW...

You forget, we knew he had them, we knew he would launch them, and we still put people within range, maybe that was an avoidable risk, what neighboring border would you have suggested he couldnt have reached? lol
 

MadRat

Lifer
Oct 14, 1999
11,999
307
126
Originally posted by: Alistar7
silkworms fly low to the ground, lower than any aircraft they could put in the sky, for the 60 seconds it would last before being taken out, notice he hasnt even tried to put ANYTHING into the air...

The HY-2 flies only down to between 100 and 150 feet altitude; its not exactly a sea skimmer. The HY-2 used in the attack last week was identified by a designation of "seersucker", a specialized coastal attack version. The key difference being that the "seersucker" version can be preprogrammed like a cruise missile. The big drawback of these missiles is that they don't have a sophisticated guidance system to pinpoint specific targets like the old TERCOM-equipped AGM-86s. They also don't climb before striking targets, making them susceptible to running into obstructions.