If Intel's killing the floppy, then is there a suitable replacement?

[CZroe]

CD-ROMs are not suitable. Burning a CD every time you need to run Ghost or Partition Magic is not an option.

Someone needs to make a "mega floppy that works in any floppy drive" using a Floppy adapter w/ enough flash memory to compress & store all important boot disk image files.

It could be a total archiving solution, for when you need that good ol' Win95 boot disk (Ever been working on someone's older PC and got the "incorrect DOS version" msg on every utility? I've been totally unable to reinstall the old OS just because I had a Win98/ME disk!)

It could increase the capacity for the future, without deviating from current standards (See the next plus)

It could maintain backwards compatability and actually make working on older PC EASIER.

If this happened, then we'd see just how useless floppies could be!

The "1.44MB" limitation (For true floppy emulation) could be like the "X number of pages" limitation of a console video game system's memory card... Just a way to divide up the data on the flash memory (ie, Partition Magic Disk1 & 2 take 2 "pages" as would a 2.88MB floppy image from Japan).

Floppy adapters do exist, so it's perfectly feasible, though I don't believe any of them provide true floppy emulation (Their just for getting pictures from a digital camera without a flash card reader and such)...

Until then, does anyone know of a floppy imaging program that can create disk from images under DOS & Windows? I'm thinking of throwing everything on a CD & using a CD Boot floppy for those old 486s that can't handle more than '95...

 

[Jeff7]

LS-120 drive.

Not the speediest, but still, backward compatible, and holds 120MB.

 

[HansXP]

<< LS-120 drive.

Not the speediest, but still, backward compatible, and holds 120MB. >>



Actually that's outdated too...the LS240 drive has 240 MB capacity, plus it reads both LS-120 and floppy disks.

 

[CZroe]

The media is not backwards compatible! That's the problem because increased capacity solves nothing! Besides, IDE sucks for that stuff...

 

[HansXP]

<< The media is not backwards compatible! That's the problem because increased capacity solves nothing! Besides, IDE sucks for that stuff... >>



Why do we need backwards compatibility? I certainly don't.

And why is IDE bad for "that stuff"??

 

[Gunbuster]

Burn boot images to CDR for ghost and flashing, ethernet and wireless for everything else

 

[SUOrangeman]

I'd like to see bootable flash media, say SmartMedia or CompactFlash. Blazingly fast and could be treated like ATA, SCSI, or USB.

-SUO

 

[CZroe]

<< Burn boot images to CDR for ghost and flashing, ethernet and wireless for everything else >>



Yes, but the boot images would have to be multiple floppy images as files w/ DOS floppy image writing software or else you'd still have this problem:
Use a WinME disk to access a Win95 CDROM:
Format C: /s
"The /s switch not supported in this version of MS-DOS"
D:\Win95\FORMAT.COM C: /s
"Incorrect MS-DOS version" [referring to the WinME boot disk's version of command.com]
Use EXTRACT & the EBD.CAB file to write over the WinME boot disk with 95's, and you're screwed with no CD-ROM support & no way to boot the PC (With no reboot, you're still running ME's DOS). Using a boot CD means you can't get even that far. You also get "Incorrect MS-DOS version" if you try to run the instalation from the cd. If you don't have to format, then copying the CD contents to the drive first and then going over the boot disk means you wouldn't need access to the CD (Since the W95 emergency boot disk has no CD drivers)

I run into this problem 3 times a month at friend's houses (Well, usually some clue-less "friend's friend/family"), and I'd like to know how Intel expects to avoid this in the future! Sure, all "floppyless" PC boards will be bootable by CD, but what happens when you have no 98 boot CD?! 98SE's CD was not bootable.

I have 2 people that I don't know waiting on me tonight that will have to continue to wait until I get a Win95 CD-ROM disk for a 90Mhz Pentium (That can't boot from CDs) and another PC waiting on a 98 disk. I no longer have 98 or 95 installed on any computers of mine (Only 2000 & XP). Of course, I have multiple copies of Win95 & 98 CDs (Both "setup" disks have CD drivers, even though the 95 EBD doesn't), but I'm not going to install them just to make a boot disk! Not only that, but 95 isn't a bootable CD, so I'd be in just the same situation!

Being able to have everything on one floppy would be ideal, but a CD full of all versions would be great.

 

[wepopfresh]

Get rid of the floppy.
Thats classic.

Just like changing dos to os by dropping the disk.

When apple did it everyone scoffed them. Now the rest of the world is catching on.

A bootable cd is a better solution. cd media is cheaper then any other form of storage, easier to produce, and will last longer then most.

What is the pc world going to do next? Let me think.... What else did apple do a couple of years ago.

 

[CZroe]

<< Why do we need backwards compatibility? I certainly don't. >>


See above post. We all know floppies are FOR troubleshooting, not storage (These days)!


<< And why is IDE bad for "that stuff"?? >>


DVD + CD-R/W + HDD + LS-120 = SERIOUS performance problem! Who would want to sacrifice hard drive speed for floppies? Also, LS-120's are only bootable in systems with BIOS support & ALL modern systems ditched LS-120 BIOS support a long time ago...

 

[erub]

my god...how much do you expect to be using this?? IDE is perfectly okay - most people aren't trying to reek that extra 1 mb/sec or whatever out of their portable media.

 

[Nefrodite]

huh? i still don't get why you can't just use a cdrw made to be a boot floppy

 

[HansXP]

<<

<< Why do we need backwards compatibility? I certainly don't. >>


See above post. We all know floppies are FOR troubleshooting, not storage (These days)! >>



Um...that didn't answer the question at all. Troubleshooting has nothing to do with backwards compatibility. And you can troubleshoot with an LS120, a Zip disk, a CD-RW, etc. You don't need a floppy.



<< And why is IDE bad for "that stuff"?? >>


DVD + CD-R/W + HDD + LS-120 = SERIOUS performance problem![/i] >>



I have it and I don't have a serious performance problem, maybe you should stop BSing about things you know NOTHING about.



<< Who would want to sacrifice hard drive speed for floppies? Also, LS-120's are only bootable in systems with BIOS support & ALL modern systems ditched LS-120 BIOS support a long time ago... >>



Um...almost all modern BIOSes support the LS120. You really are full of sh!t.

 

[jacklutz]

<<

<< And why is IDE bad for "that stuff"?? >>


DVD + CD-R/W + HDD + LS-120 = SERIOUS performance problem! >>



I have it and I don't have a serious performance problem, maybe you should stop BSing about things you know NOTHING about.[/i] >>



I'm curious, Google turned up nothing... does an LS-120 run at ATA33?

 

[HansXP]

Not even ATA/33 but it has no effect on the performance of my other drives.

 

[Mean MrMustard]

I still don't know how Intel has the "authority" to eliminate the a piece of harware other than their own products.:frown:

 

[AndyHui]

I'm with SUOrangeman on this one.
Bootable compact flash, or some type of memory stick/card, would do very well as a floppy replacement. No moving parts, acceptable access speed, and reasonable storage capacity.

 

[CTho9305]

<-- hasn't used a floppy in about 6 months. well, thats a lie. I had to use a floppy to make a slackware bootdisk for some outdated Alpha boxes in need of an OS (I couldn't find a bootable ISO of slack-alpha )

seriously... I burn a bootable CD-RW, and update the disc as needed. and my winXP cd is bootable, as are all my x86 linux cds, so I dont need floppies. I use the net for file transfers.

 

[corkyg]

Ditto with Andy and SuOrangeman. SD is looking like the successor to both SM and CF. Also, why not the MicroDrive? One could install a complete OS on one of those. If the CF II drive were bootable, one module could run several computers.

 

[Wingznut]

If you are working on an older PC (or one with Win95 or even DOS), then the PC will still have a floppy drive in it. It's not like they are going to become outlawed and someone is going to come to your house and confisgate your A: drive.

It's going to take a while, maybe a couple of years for this to actually become mainstream.

So, for a system that you build in the future... What do you need a floppy for, that a CD can't do? Granted, a floppy disk is easier to carry around than a CD... But it's even easier to send the file, especially if it's less than 1.4mb (if it were larger, you couldn't use a floppy anyway.)

 

[BFG10K]

If Intel's killing the floppy, then is there a suitable replacement?

Intel isn't physically killing it; all they're doing is discouraging OEMs from including it in the systems. They're not physically removing the FDD controller which means you can ask for a FDD if you want it.

 

[AA0]

I'm sure boards will be produced for a little while still with floppies, but when they are out there are some great replacements for them, much faster and less prone to damage.

The USB storage devices that are out will probably be moved to be just like a floppy, stick in the usb port and it will boot. Anyone that still has programs on floppies should really have changed them over by now.


I think intel will stop adding floppy drive support into their chipsets, making it impossible for one to be attached to boards. If there were boards that were out with no floppy header, I'd buy one now, you'll get a much better board layout.

 

[Mats]

"The USB storage devices that are out will probably be moved to be just like a floppy, stick in the usb port and it will boot. Anyone that still has programs on floppies should really have changed them over by now."


"I think intel will stop adding floppy drive support into their chipsets, making it impossible for one to be attached to boards. If there were boards that were out with no floppy header, I'd buy one now, you'll get a much better board layout."


Hopefully USB will be replaced by Firewire as this is a far superior interface.
Unfortunately because Intel supports USB only, we havn't changed over to Firewire as yet. :disgust:

 

[CZroe]

erub:

<< most people aren't trying to reek that extra 1 mb/sec or whatever out of their portable media. >>

It's not about the portable media's speed! If it was, then wouldn't I be concerned about a floppy drive's abysmal speeds?! It's a plain and simple fact: IDE drives that share a channel with another drive share bandwidth even when only one device is being used. This means, your entire system will boot slower for one thing regardless of using the portable storage or not. See all the "RAID 0 is useless if you share channels" doomsayers, though that is totally blown out of proportion. Still, hard drives should only share a channel with something else if they have to, and the common consensus is that a CD-R/W should always have it's own channel no matter what. Though I'm sure burn-proof changes that, it still doesn't negate the perfomance problem that makes Burn-Proof necessary.

Nefrodite:

<< huh? i still don't get why you can't just use a cdrw made to be a boot floppy >>

Because virtually EVERY system "in the wild" doesn't support booting from CDs, much less CD-RWs. Remember, I'm not talking about my or a guru's PCs (Though it would be convienient for us guys also)! "It could ... actually make working on older PC EASIER" <-Stated in my first post

HansXP:

<< Um...that didn't answer the question at all. Troubleshooting has nothing to do with backwards compatibility. And you can troubleshoot with an LS120, a Zip disk, a CD-RW, etc. You don't need a floppy. >>

Nothing to do with backwards compatability?! You SERIOUSLY don't realize that I'm not talking about just working on your own PCs! NO WHERE NEAR 60% of PCs can boot to CDs! I run into them EVERY DAY. Yes, this figure IS accurate, because it isn't only dependant on the motherboard (It's weird, considering my first PC in '96 supported booting to CDs. At least the Acer System Restore Disc anyway...). I have 2 CD-ROMs right here that don't support it, & some systems don't even have internal CD-ROMs (See the ultraportable laptops these days) or external for that matter (look at the majority of computers from '95). CD-RW is another problem altogether because they are only common in late '99 PCs and on. Not only that, not even ONCE have I had a CD-R drive with me when I needed it for that. Remember: you're just as likely to be here or there when someone has a problem. In my case it usually goes like this: "Hey man, my friend that lives 1.5 hours away has a problem & I'm headed over to help. Wanna come?" and since I don't know the person there's no way in hell they'd let me take it home to finish it (And who would want to just for a damn floppy?!). "Nothing to do" with it? Have a little creative brainstorm before flaming PLEASE. Troubleshooting = Diagnosing, not running diagnostics. Which by the way, IBM will of course have to create new drive diagnostics, as you aren't allowed to extract & burn to a disk UNLESS you created a... FLOPPY! Also, regarding LS-120's: No Intel P4 boards support LS-120. Intel officially discontinued support for it. When Intel does that, even against their better judgement the others follow suit. Why defend their floppy/serial policy and "ignore" their LS-120 policy? Now THAT's irony for you! The LS-120 was doomed before the floppy by the very same people and you claim it's the solution to not having a floppy! If I had remembered this earlier, I guarantee you I wouldn't have pushed this off-topic with IDE performance issues...

ELP:

<< I still don't know how Intel has the "authority" to eliminate the a piece of harware other than their own products. >>

You'd be surprised to see what other manufacturers would do to maintain PC'XX and other "official" certifications. If the OEMs & PC makers can't conform, they either can't get MS licenses, logos, & OEM products or they won't buy the other chipsets. It a vicious symbiotic relationship! :| Intel has a major say in every certification & believe me, this is going to be a biggie (I'll update with exactly what it is when I remember)...

AndyHui:



<< Bootable compact flash, or some type of memory stick/card, would do very well as a floppy replacement. No moving parts, acceptable access speed, and reasonable storage capacity. >>

You're right, it is a good idea & it could maintain reverse compatability the same way "digital film cameras" do it today: Floppy adapters

CTho9305:

<< I burn a bootable CD-RW, and update the disc as needed. and my winXP cd is bootable, as are all my x86 linux cds, so I dont need floppies. I use the net for file transfers >>

Yeah, but try booting that XP cd to install ME on an underpowered machine that can't really handle XP, or try an ME CD to instal 98 on a system with less than 32MB of memory (ME refuses to install, 3 times I've been stuck with nothing but ME & have even had to resort to adding my personal RAM, installing & then removing the memory when finished because of a simple floppy. Talk about the lack of a floppy affecting performance!). Yes, using the Internet is an option for transfering files, but CD's and flash memory are also great for removeable storage. I just doubt their ability to replace the floppy's use for anything but newer systems. Also, if I had Internet access in the places I had these problems it would be as simple as calling a friend & getting him to send me the files I needed for a proper boot floppy instantly. Perhaps wireless nationwide Internet service is what we need to abolish the floppy (Heh heh, except most of the time, the PC isn't bootable, but I usually have a laptop with me anyway)!

OK I'm posting this before finishing reading the replys 'cause I gotta get some sleep...

 

[CZroe]

Wingznut PEZ:

<< It's going to take a while, maybe a couple of years for this to actually become mainstream. >>

Faster than you think: Intel is killing it NEXT YEAR. That means no more serial or floppy (at least from them) & the standard goes into effect against others. Perhaps it will be an "impossible to conform to" demand like the FCCs Digital Television & 911 Cellphone location tracking technology deadlines. Both came and went with virtually no-rollout.