If Honda engines are so great...

[N8Magic]

... why can't they build a decent Formula 1 engine? Villeneuve blew ANOTHER Honda RA002E engine today... it's funny how that rarely happened when he was driving a car with a Renault engine.

Teams with Honda engines (Jordan and BAR) have a combined total of 11 championship points. The Sauber-Petronas powered cars have nearly that many points (10) with drivers who are not even close to the calibre of drivers that Honda powered teams have.

25 out of 44 times the Honda powered cars have not finished the race which is a dismal 56% failure rate. Compare this to Ferrari at 18%, Mercedes at 40% and BMW at 18%, and it doesn't look too good for Honda.

So what gives? Could Honda engines not be as good as they're cracked up to be? :Q

They (Honda) may want to reconsider their F1 advertising campaign where "In every Civic/Accord, theres a Honda engine." If their F1 performance is any indicator, I don't want a Honda engine in my car!

 

[Mr.IncrediblyBored]

Originally posted by: N8Magic
If their F1 performance is any indicator,...

But it isn't, so what difference does it make?

I'm sure Honda has a separate development team/division working on racing engines. A horrible failure rate for there F1 engines only displays poorly on the F1 division, not the passenger car division.

 

[CocaCola5]

Because ultra-reliability doesn't mean much in racing.

 

[N8Magic]

Originally posted by: KnightBreed

Originally posted by: N8Magic
If their F1 performance is any indicator,...

But it isn't, so what difference does it make?

I'm sure Honda has a separate development team/division working on racing engines. A horrible failure rate for there F1 engines only displays poorly on the F1 division, not the passenger car division.

Sorry, but if they make a point of advertising their poor F1 engines in their consumer car commercials, it does make a difference. If I owned a company I wouldn't advertise a product that fails 56% of the time. (even if it isn't a consumer product)

And they may have different design teams, but you have to remember that a lot of new technology in passenger cars was originally developed for F1 engines.

 

[N8Magic]

Originally posted by: CocaCola5
Because ultra-reliability doesn't mean much in racing.

Oh no?

With a horribly unreliable engine, how do you win races? That's right, you don't, which BAR and Jordan have proven this year.

 

[CocaCola5]

Originally posted by: N8Magic

Originally posted by: CocaCola5
Because ultra-reliability doesn't mean much in racing.

Oh no?

With a horribly unreliable engine, how do you win races? That's right, you don't, which BAR and Jordan have proven this year.

Well, first of all, Honda's main problem is POWER which they lack compared to the other top engines. The reliability issues with Villeneuve's BAR etc. probably just means they are pushing more revs in an attempt to catch up on this problem which makes the engine less reliable. So my point was, starting out with a reliable engine(which Honda had most of 2000, 2001 season) doesn't mean you'll be competitive. You need a reliable engine to finish but you probably won't be on the podium at the end of the race.

 

[Mr.IncrediblyBored]

Originally posted by: N8Magic
Sorry, but if they make a point of advertising their poor F1 engines in their consumer car commercials, it does make a difference. If I owned a company I wouldn't advertise a product that fails 56% of the time. (even if it isn't a consumer product)

If this bothers you, then you should take pride in knowing that you are among the 1% of consumers that realize that Honda's F1 reliability is sh*t.

Edit: Its obvious I buggered up the quote in my post, yet for some reason, N8Magic quoted me and didn't bother fixing it. Sometimes I wonder why people do this.

 

[N8Magic]

Originally posted by: KnightBreed

Originally posted by: N8Magic

Sorry, but if they make a point of advertising their poor F1 engines in their consumer car commercials, it does make a difference. If I owned a company I wouldn't advertise a product that fails 56% of the time. (even if it isn't a consumer product)

If this bothers you, then you should take pride in knowing that you are among the 1% of consumers that realize that Honda's F1 reliability is sh*t.

It doesn't really bother me, I just laugh every time I see the commercial. If people only knew...

 

[Zebo]

Psst hey Magic lemme tell you a secret. THEY'RE NOT RELIABLE.

I have had several GM 350's with over 200.000 miles and never had a japanese car last that long.

If you drive a japanese car hard they will fall apart and F1 just accelerates this thoery.

 

[CocaCola5]

Honda's engines are reliable and why people buy Honda but racing is first about DESIGN not reliability. Formula 1 is not endurance racing and theres less than 200 miles distant for any race so its not really a reliability test.

 

[N8Magic]

Originally posted by: CocaCola5

Originally posted by: N8Magic

Originally posted by: CocaCola5
Because ultra-reliability doesn't mean much in racing.

Oh no?

With a horribly unreliable engine, how do you win races? That's right, you don't, which BAR and Jordan have proven this year.

Well, first of all, Honda's main problem is POWER which they lack compared to the other top engines. The reliability issues with Villeneuve's BAR etc. probably just means they are pushing more revs in an attempt to catch up on this problem which makes the engine less reliable. So my point was, starting out with a reliable engine(which Honda had most of 2000, 2001 season) doesn't mean you'll be competitive. You need a reliable engine to finish but you probably won't be on the podium at the end of the race.

Pretty much all of the teams engines are underpowered compared to the new Ferrari motor. You can't tell me all of the teams aren't pushing the motors to the limit to be competitive.

Oh, and some constructors points are better than the none you get for a DNF.

 

[NFS4]

Originally posted by: Carbonyl
Psst hey Magic lemme tell you a secret. THEY'RE NOT RELIABLE.

I have had several GM 350's with over 200.000 miles and never had a japanese car last that long.

If you drive a japanese car hard they will fall apart and F1 just accelerates this thoery.

I'd put any Honda or Toyota car against any Ford or GM car as far as reliability, quality, and engines are concerned. My Camry has 110,600 miles on it and is still going. Only have to do routine maintenance on it to keep it going.

 

[CocaCola5]

Originally posted by: N8Magic

Originally posted by: CocaCola5

Originally posted by: N8Magic

Originally posted by: CocaCola5
Because ultra-reliability doesn't mean much in racing.

Oh no?

With a horribly unreliable engine, how do you win races? That's right, you don't, which BAR and Jordan have proven this year.

Well, first of all, Honda's main problem is POWER which they lack compared to the other top engines. The reliability issues with Villeneuve's BAR etc. probably just means they are pushing more revs in an attempt to catch up on this problem which makes the engine less reliable. So my point was, starting out with a reliable engine(which Honda had most of 2000, 2001 season) doesn't mean you'll be competitive. You need a reliable engine to finish but you probably won't be on the podium at the end of the race.

Pretty much all of the teams engines are underpowered compared to the new Ferrari motor. You can't tell me all of the teams aren't pushing the motors to the limit to be competitive.

Oh, and some constructors points are better than the none you get for a DNF.

I agree with some of the races like Monaco or Canada its easy to get points just by finishing the race.

 

[N8Magic]

Originally posted by: NFS4


I'd put any Honda or Toyota car against any Ford or GM car as far as reliability, quality, and engines are concerned. My Camry has 110,600 miles on it and is still going. Only have to do routine maintenance on it to keep it going.

I don't know about that... GM has designed many great engines over the years. The 3800 series engines are some of the most solid and reliable engines around. Before I bought my current car (VW), I had a '95 Cavalier Z24 with the notoriously unreliable Quad-4 engine that had 235,000km (~150,000mi.) with no major problems and I even skimped on the routine maintenance. (my bad)

 

[toph99]

how many cylinders are those honda F1 engines? aren't most F1's 8 or 12 cylinders?

anyways, if you want reliability, look at NASCAR motors running at 9k rpm on a carb'd pushrod V8 and most of the racers that start the race, finish it as well. maybe one or two will go out early with engine trouble.

that being said, people are saying that honda's F1 motors are underpowered... how does that NOT relate to passenger cars?

oh, and not to turn this into a domestic vs. import argument, but a guy i work with has a chevy van with 800 000+(497 100 miles) Kms on the engine, totally unrebuilt, only regular maintainence and a water pump, alternater etc. doesn't burn a drop of oil. He's going to see how long it lasts before he gives it to GM so that they can tear it apart, and they're going to give him a new van.

 

[NFS4]

Originally posted by: N8Magic

Originally posted by: NFS4


I'd put any Honda or Toyota car against any Ford or GM car as far as reliability, quality, and engines are concerned. My Camry has 110,600 miles on it and is still going. Only have to do routine maintenance on it to keep it going.

I don't know about that... GM has designed many great engines over the years. The 3800 series engines are some of the most solid and reliable engines around. Before I bought my current car (VW), I had a '95 Cavalier Z24 with the notoriously unreliable Quad-4 engine that had 235,000km (~150,000mi.) with no major problems and I even skimped on the routine maintenance. (my bad)

I had an '87 Sunbird with that 4-banger in it. Had to have the engine rebuilt at 80,000 miles.

 

[N8Magic]

Originally posted by: toph99
how many cylinders are those honda F1 engines? aren't most F1's 8 or 12 cylinders?

The Honda motor in question is a V10.

anyways, if you want reliability, look at NASCAR motors running at 9k rpm on a carb'd pushrod V8 and most of the racers that start the race, finish it as well. maybe one or two will go out early with engine trouble.

Never thought of that... good point. Most NASCAR DNF's are caused by crashes, not motor failures.

that being said, people are saying that honda's F1 motors are underpowered... how does that NOT relate to passenger cars?

LOL!

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: NFS4

Originally posted by: Carbonyl
Psst hey Magic lemme tell you a secret. THEY'RE NOT RELIABLE.

I have had several GM 350's with over 200.000 miles and never had a japanese car last that long.

If you drive a japanese car hard they will fall apart and F1 just accelerates this thoery.

I'd put any Honda or Toyota car against any Ford or GM car as far as reliability, quality, and engines are concerned. My Camry has 110,600 miles on it and is still going. Only have to do routine maintenance on it to keep it going.

110K is'nt much. My 77 Nova went to 220,000+ before it quite and I beat the sh1t out of it. Power slides, gravel roads and never had any problems except changing the distributer cap and plugs. My second car and 84 transam 20 with solid lifters went for 250,000 miles before I sold it and still ran strong. ther were others, because I eat cars but my 93' toyota 4-runner I broke the tranny pulling a truck off a stump at 2800 miles and blew the motor at 23000 miles. I also bent 4 a-arms which cost me $1700 ea to replace. What a POS. I'll never buy a toy again.


The ford triton motors are rated for 250,000 miles and only require a tune up every 100K. Plus they have torque which I've never seen with anything japanese.

The thing you never consider when eveluating foreign cars is hard use. When I accelerate it's always pedal 3/5 down, and I drive 90 and corner hard. The Japanese cars simply don't have the mettle or the metal to stand up to these conditions over time. Again this is my experiance.

 

[Adul]

Originally posted by: NFS4

Originally posted by: N8Magic

Originally posted by: NFS4


I'd put any Honda or Toyota car against any Ford or GM car as far as reliability, quality, and engines are concerned. My Camry has 110,600 miles on it and is still going. Only have to do routine maintenance on it to keep it going.

I don't know about that... GM has designed many great engines over the years. The 3800 series engines are some of the most solid and reliable engines around. Before I bought my current car (VW), I had a '95 Cavalier Z24 with the notoriously unreliable Quad-4 engine that had 235,000km (~150,000mi.) with no major problems and I even skimped on the routine maintenance. (my bad)

I had an '87 Sunbird with that 4-banger in it. Had to have the engine rebuilt at 80,000 miles.

one engine experience,.. u should know better.
i seen plernty of domestic trucks around here with engines that have several hundred k on them. especially diesal.

 

[RanDum72]

I don't mean to offend 'American pride' here but in general American cars cannot hold a candle to Japanese cars in terms of reliability. Sure, you will have the occasional 6-figure mileage vehicles but I bet that in average, more Japanese vehicles have that figure than domestic. My neighbor has an almost 400k mile 87 honda Accord. My '96 Accord has 100k and still feels brand new. My 92 Accord before that has the same mileage and was 100% trouble free before it got totalled. All you need to do is look at Consumer Reports and look at the feedback for each vehicle brand. I would take those rather than individual claims.

 

[Adul]

Originally posted by: RanDum72
I don't mean to offend 'American pride' here but in general American cars cannot hold a candle to Japanese cars in terms of reliability. Sure, you will have the occasional 6-figure mileage vehicles but I bet that in average, more Japanese vehicles have that figure than domestic. My neighbor has an almost 400k mile 87 honda Accord. My '96 Accord has 100k and still feels brand new. My 92 Accord before that has the same mileage and was 100% trouble free before it got totalled. All you need to do is look at Consumer Reports and look at the feedback for each vehicle brand. I would take those rather than individual claims.

not saying anything about the cars. just trucks and their engines.

cars are another story

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: RanDum72
I don't mean to offend 'American pride' here but in general American cars cannot hold a candle to Japanese cars in terms of reliability. Sure, you will have the occasional 6-figure mileage vehicles but I bet that in average, more Japanese vehicles have that figure than domestic. My neighbor has an almost 400k mile 87 honda Accord. My '96 Accord has 100k and still feels brand new. My 92 Accord before that has the same mileage and was 100% trouble free before it got totalled. All you need to do is look at Consumer Reports and look at the feedback for each vehicle brand. I would take those rather than individual claims.

Ahh the perverbial consumer reports claims. Is the magazine a reprsentative sample of the USA? No it's geeks who are more inclined to drive a foreign car anyway and once they buy american they look for every problem no matter how slight and send in the information.

I have my own tests and experments and experiances to go off of, not some magazine which is very baised and doesnt represent american consumers as a whoel

 

[toph99]

Originally posted by: RanDum72
I don't mean to offend 'American pride' here but in general American cars cannot hold a candle to Japanese cars in terms of reliability. Sure, you will have the occasional 6-figure mileage vehicles but I bet that in average, more Japanese vehicles have that figure than domestic. My neighbor has an almost 400k mile 87 honda Accord. My '96 Accord has 100k and still feels brand new. My 92 Accord before that has the same mileage and was 100% trouble free before it got totalled. All you need to do is look at Consumer Reports and look at the feedback for each vehicle brand. I would take those rather than individual claims.

I'm not american so i have no american pride to sway my decision
there are some absolutly bulletproof american motors

mopar slant 6 <---they simply WILL NOT die. the cars break down around the engine
ford 302(5.0) <-- beat the everloving sh!t out of them and they'll beg for more. my friend has 190k km on his, which isn't much, but it regularily hauls a lot of weight(5th wheel camper, stuff for his farm etc.) in his F150.
small block chevy <--see above
3800 series V6 <-- my most favourite buick motor, they run forever, especially with forced induction.

i know japanese motors will run for a long, long time. but i have learned from other's experience that you have to baby them. Those motors listed above will go through hell and back and still run, with an oil change and little else.


now, with all that said, i will never buy a GM 4 cylinder again. in 30 000kms, i have replaced the water pump, exhaust manifold and it has had bolts come loose and leak oil through the cylinder head. Maybe all 4 cylinders have to be babied? i certainly don't drive it easily, but i don't punish it. it's a 2.4L twin cam in an alero.

 

[NFS4]

Originally posted by: Carbonyl

Originally posted by: NFS4

Originally posted by: Carbonyl
Psst hey Magic lemme tell you a secret. THEY'RE NOT RELIABLE.

I have had several GM 350's with over 200.000 miles and never had a japanese car last that long.

If you drive a japanese car hard they will fall apart and F1 just accelerates this thoery.

I'd put any Honda or Toyota car against any Ford or GM car as far as reliability, quality, and engines are concerned. My Camry has 110,600 miles on it and is still going. Only have to do routine maintenance on it to keep it going.

110K is'nt much. My 77 Nova went to 220,000+ before it quite and I beat the sh1t out of it. Power slides, gravel roads and never had any problems except changing the distributer cap and plugs. My second car and 84 transam 20 with solid lifters went for 250,000 miles before I sold it and still ran strong. ther were others, because I eat cars but my 93' toyota 4-runner I broke the tranny pulling a truck off a stump at 2800 miles and blew the motor at 23000 miles. I also bent 4 a-arms which cost me $1700 ea to replace. What a POS. I'll never buy a toy again.


The ford triton motors are rated for 250,000 miles and only require a tune up every 100K. Plus they have torque which I've never seen with anything japanese.

The thing you never consider when eveluating foreign cars is hard use. When I accelerate it's always pedal 3/5 down, and I drive 90 and corner hard. The Japanese cars simply don't have the mettle or the metal to stand up to these conditions over time. Again this is my experiance.

When it comes down to cars, Americans buy Japanese plain and simple. They don't want domestic cheapness anymore. Toyota and Honda's reputation for cars is MUCH better than either Ford, GM, or Chrysler. Of the top ten selling cars in America so far in 2002, five are imports and five are domestics.

2002 YTD

Toyota Camry 189,118
Honda Accord 148,486
Ford Taurus 133,892
Honda Civic 126,380
Chevrolet Cavalier 114,898
Toyota Corolla 96,501
Ford Focus 94,863
Nissan Altima 84,686
Chevrolet Impala 78,903
Pontiac Grand Am 67,141

But wait you say, they're even. Not quite A VERY larger portion of the Taurus', Cavaliers, Impalas, and Grand Ams sold are to rental, fleet agencies, and governmental operations that only buy domestic whereass imports are bought by regular folks like you and me. The Focus is the only domestic on that list that doesn't get a lot of fleet/rental sales. Rarely do you see imports making up a big portion of fleet sales or in rental lots.

They didn't get that reputation for building sh!tty cars.

 

[N8Magic]

Originally posted by: toph99


I'm not american so i have no american pride to sway my decision
there are some absolutly bulletproof american motors

mopar slant 6 <---they simply WILL NOT die. the cars break down around the engine
ford 302(5.0) <-- beat the everloving sh!t out of them and they'll beg for more. my friend has 190k km on his, which isn't much, but it regularily hauls a lot of weight(5th wheel camper, stuff for his farm etc.) in his F150.
small block chevy <--see above
3800 series V6 <-- my most favourite buick motor, they run forever, especially with forced induction.

i know japanese motors will run for a long, long time. but i have learned from other's experience that you have to baby them. Those motors listed above will go through hell and back and still run, with an oil change and little else.

Thank you, you took the words right out of my mouth. You also have to take in to account the fact that Japanese engines cost a small fortune to fix if/when something does go wrong.

If something goes wrong with a domestic engine, parts are cheaper and more plentiful.