If a UAV kills civilians or commits a war crime who is to blame?

[50]

For the US, does the person who operates it get charged with war crimes? Or is there no policy for this? Just curious.

 

[sandorski]

The Operator and/or up the Chain of Command all bear responsibilities. Although that would depend on the situation.

Of course I'm not a Lawyer, but whether Laws agree with me or not I think the vast majority would expect Responsibility to land somewhere.

 

[OCGuy]

Why would you think someone needs to be charged with anything? Civilians die in war. That is why we should never rush to it.

We took out more people in the conventional firebomb raids on Tokyo than we did with the atomic bomb, and those pilots were considered heroes.

 

[Mike Gayner]

If I run someone over with my car am I liable? It wasn't me who hit them, but the car under my control.

But to answer your question, when a US soldier kills a civilian, no one gets any blame.

 

[sandorski]

doh, read fail

 

[Number1]

The person pulling the trigger is responsible.

OK Close the thread.

 

[OCGuy]

The fact that you think a civilian being killed automatically warrants a war crimes trial is..well......yea.

Are we this niave and sheltered these days?

If a soldier intentionally kills anyone who isnt an "enemy", including a civilian, they deserve to be brought up on murder charges.

Collateral damage, on the other hand, is just another ugly reality of war.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

the borg

 

[StageLeft]

For the US, does the person who operates it get charged with war crimes? Or is there no policy for this? Just curious.

Of course.

 

[Mike Gayner]

Why would you think someone needs to be charged with anything? Civilians die in war.

It’s easy to be cavalier about it when it’s not your family being killed.

 

[rchiu]

If I run someone over with my car am I liable? It wasn't me who hit them, but the car under my control.

But to answer your question, when a US soldier kills a civilian, no one gets any blame.

Yeah cause US is the sole super power and US have not been defeated as a country. Look how Germany and Japan took the blame as a country. People in charged of the war got punished with war crimes, and the country as a whole got punished with occupation.

That's the reality of war for you, winner gets called heros and loser criminals.

 

[cwjerome]

Essentially, the two questions are whether the U.S. has published rules and SOPs and whether it is enforcing them. The answer is yes and yes.

Fire from Predators is "aimed fire," not robotic, so presumably the rules and SOPs for aimed fire pertain. Fire is not at the absolute discretion of the Commander, because the Commander has to conform to various U.S. rules and SOPs that flow down the chain of command. Article 15-6 investigations are one process for addressing potential violations. There are plenty of rules to be followed and accountability is known.

When I see comments from "officials" regarding the legality or illegality of American actions (like the recent UN "official"), I see subterfuge at work, and shadowy actions planned and orchestrated behind the scenes designed to further the agendas of those who hate the United States and Americans. There is no need for us to acknowledge such individuals, though we do need to expose their agendas and remove them from any position where they may be able to negatively affect the international security system.

 

[Mike Gayner]

Essentially, the two questions are whether the U.S. has published rules and SOPs and whether it is enforcing them. The answer is yes and yes.

Fire from Predators is "aimed fire," not robotic, so presumably the rules and SOPs for aimed fire pertain. Fire is not at the absolute discretion of the Commander, because the Commander has to conform to various U.S. rules and SOPs that flow down the chain of command. Article 15-6 investigations are one process for addressing potential violations. There are plenty of rules to be followed and accountability is known.

When I see comments from "officials" regarding the legality or illegality of American actions (like the recent UN "official"), I see subterfuge at work, and shadowy actions planned and orchestrated behind the scenes designed to further the agendas of those who hate the United States and Americans. There is no need for us to acknowledge such individuals, though we do need to expose their agendas and remove them from any position where they may be able to negatively affect the international security system.

Yeah damn those people who might dare call into question the overt and egregious legal breaches committed by the US military on a daily basis, leading to destroyed lives of innocent people. Obviously they just hate America.

AMERICA, FUCK YEAH!

 

[Pocatello]

We can blame George Bush and Dick Cheney.

 

[theflyingpig]

Yeah damn those people who might dare call into question the overt and egregious legal breaches committed by the US military on a daily basis, leading to destroyed lives of innocent people. Obviously they just hate America.

AMERICA, FUCK YEAH!

Every post of yours shows your contempt for the US. It's kind of funny, when I think about it. Here you are, some poor fool sitting in a country whos greatest accomplishment is having more sheep per capita than any other in the world, and you think you can criticize the most successful and powerful country in the world? It's time for you to face the facts, my friend. You don't know anything about war. You don't know anything about the law. You don't know anything about UAVs. All you know is whining and bitching about the US. Thats all you do. Thats all you can do. Everyone knows this.

 

[0marTheZealot]

War crimes only exist for the militarily weak nations. Look at what the Soviets did to German POWs after WW2. Not a single member of the 1st SS division Liebstandarte made it back to Germany after being deposed in Moscow. Several thousand Heer soldiers never made it back to Germany after capture by the Soviets.

How about the US actions in Vietnam and Cambodia? We literally killed millions of civilians. Entire villages would be bombed if they were suspected of harboring Vietcong. Or how about Iraq I when we deliberately targeted water plants, power plants, sewage plants, and other civilian infrastructure? Or Iran-Iraq where there is documented evidence that we funneled chemical and biological weapons to Iraq and greenlighted their use against the Iranian army? Or in Soviet Afghanistan when the Soviets would literally raze an entire village for killing a Soviet officer?

The bottom line is that war crimes only exist to punish the losers of wars. And even then, only if the loser is weak enough and the prosecutors strong enough. If Nazi Germany had won (or drew) WWII, there would have been no Nuremburg. Hell, Allied officers would have been on trial instead of German officers for violations against the German peoples. Look at what Israel can do because it has a powerful ally in the UN. Israel can basically ignore any allegations of war crimes against it. This is because the US is a powerful backer and because Israel has not lost any wars. What Israel does, on a daily basis, far outstrips what Milosevic and his cohorts did in Serbia. What's the difference? Serbia incurred the wrath of NATO and lost it's powerful backer in Russia. It's really as simple as that. If the ethnic cleansing happened during the '70s or '80s, Slobodan would be hailed as a hero in the East. Sure, the West may condemn him but he would never serve any time. He could effectively ignore any condemnation brought onto him by the Hague and UN because he has an 800-lb gorilla on his side.

 

[cwjerome]

Yeah damn those people who might dare call into question the overt and egregious legal breaches committed by the US military on a daily basis, leading to destroyed lives of innocent people. Obviously they just hate America.

AMERICA, FUCK YEAH!

First off, I don't give a damn about your pitiful envy-hatred.

When those who advocate or protect others who engage in terrorist acts outside of the "normal laws of war" turn to us and inform us that our military policies are wrong, it may be we have now identified who the enemy of our culture and civilization is, and their position in the international order.

How long after we disclosed any details of Predator or Reaper operations to the UN would you expect that information to be in the hands of Al Qaeda and the Taliban? My guess would be less than two hours, depending on the availability and speed of the comms links of UN bureaucrats.

And while I'm talking about that UN official, we should never accept his terms and definitions for what is appropriate warfare and inappropriate warfare. Never, ever let a foe define the terms and conditions of proper conduct for you and yours. I also reject his claim of authority over the warfare actions of the USA. Only Congress and the President can determine what is appropriate (such as through legislation to set up rules for the military and treaties). Congress and the President are the only parties that have authority to set up rules for the U.S. military. Enumerated powers. They can’t be signed away. No UN bureaucrat can take away that power.

Your naivety is an embarrassment.

 

[Moonbeam]

Humanity is asleep. The sleeping are responsible for nothing.

 

[Nebor]

It’s easy to be cavalier about it when it’s not your family being killed.

Indeed it is. It's best not to think of them as people.

 

[fskimospy]

Why would you think someone needs to be charged with anything? Civilians die in war. That is why we should never rush to it.

We took out more people in the conventional firebomb raids on Tokyo than we did with the atomic bomb, and those pilots were considered heroes.

Obviously he didn't mean accidental deaths, but purposeful ones.

The reason why the people who firebombed Tokyo, Dresden, etc. didn't get charged with war crimes by the way is because we won the war.

 

[Mike Gayner]

Every post of yours shows your contempt for the US. It's kind of funny, when I think about it. Here you are, some poor fool sitting in a country whos greatest accomplishment is having more sheep per capita than any other in the world, and you think you can criticize the most successful and powerful country in the world? It's time for you to face the facts, my friend. You don't know anything about war. You don't know anything about the law. You don't know anything about UAVs. All you know is whining and bitching about the US. Thats all you do. Thats all you can do. Everyone knows this.

We were also the first to give women the vote. America was among the last in the civilised world.

AMERICA, FUCK YEAH!

 

[LunarRay]

Yeah damn those people who might dare call into question the overt and egregious legal breaches committed by the US military on a daily basis, leading to destroyed lives of innocent people. Obviously they just hate America.

AMERICA, FUCK YEAH!

I take it you are not a citizen of my country, The USA?
I for one will debate and criticize, castigate and condemn and praise the actions of my government and its military among and with our citizens. I'll often include folks from other nations who have something worth debating.
What, therefore, beyond the International Laws and our own UCMJ and other controlling laws would you like employed to insure we prosecute war in the decent and upstanding manner as do our adversaries?

 

[StageLeft]

I'm only skimming but nothing mike gayner said is something others on the board have not said but since they were american his arguments are not dismissed as being irrelevant simply because he doesn't hold a US passport.

 

[LunarRay]

I'm only skimming but nothing mike gayner said is something others on the board have not said but since they were american his arguments are not dismissed as being irrelevant simply because he doesn't hold a US passport.

The gentleman may have a point.
I hold a few passports but only one counts.. The one where I live!
He feels that the US violates law daily and I presume the forum for the indicting of these violations is open for business... Perhaps not or perhaps these alleged violations are conditions of war in the way this war must be prosecuted.. I'm not sure.

 

[CanOWorms]

We were also the first to give women the vote. America was among the last in the civilised world.

AMERICA, FUCK YEAH!

Stop revising history. New Zealand, as a willing and active member of the British Genocidal Machine, did not give slaves in its oppressed non-settler colonies the right to vote. They only gave the right to vote to a tiny sliver of the population. Profiting off the rape and pillaging of the world is not civilized behavior.