If a guy gets a girl pregnant and he wants to keep the kid and she wants an abortion, what are his rights?

[ViviTheMage]

george bush...but i wish it was the girls decision.

 

[Ryan]

Until men can have the burden of having a child, they will never have the ultimate say in the decision of abortion. By forcing a woman to have a baby - you are forcing her to bring a child into a world that does not want it, and you're forcing the mother to form an emotional attachment once the baby is born. Emotional attachment goes hand in hand with bearing a child - you are forcing an attachment that is not wanted. Not to mention, you're forcing her to go through the pain of childbirth.

Men can never experience childbirth in the way that a mother bonds with her own child - any limitation in reproductive CHOICE is a limitation of freedom, and endoursement of oppression.

That said - I think it is also unfair for a woman to have a child that is not wanted by it's father - ideally, we would teach people that childbirth needs to be a planned event, and each couple would be honest with each other before they start having intercourse as to what will happen in the event that a pregnancy occurs. Don't like the beliefs of the person you're having sex with, and whether they will have a child or not - it's simple - don't have sex if you don't agree.

 

[HeroOfPellinor]

Originally posted by: BoomerD
Women have all the rights here, because it's their bodies...

What a tired, incorrect argument. Seriously, is the extent of the thought you've put into this the reading of a damn bumper sticker?

What about the baby's body? I suppose they don't deserve any rights? And why is that? Oh ya, because we don't consider them fully human....the same argument used every time a civilization has engaged in genocide. They aren't Romans. They're just Blacks. They're only Jews.

And you know what? Babies aren't forced on anybody. Outside of rape, every women who has ever got pregnant made a DECISION to engage in activity which could lead to it. It reminds me of the time I was doing 110 in a 25mph school zone and a cop pulled me over and was going to cuff me when I explained that I just wanted to speed and didn't want a ticket and he went, okay, have a nice day. And having a kid isn't the end of your life.......WTF else you going to do with your speck of an existence that's more worthwhile?

You plant a tree as a seed. The second that seed starts to germinate and you pluck it from the ground, you're killing a tree. As a society we KNOW this, but we've chosen to ignore it and cover it up with terms like fetus and false arguments like your "it's their body". Why? Because it's convenient. Just like having slaves was convenient. Just like being able to blame everything on Jews was convenient.

 

[zixxer]

Originally posted by: ViviTheMage
george bush...but i wish it was the girls decision.

P&N

 

[KK]

Originally posted by: jbourne77

Originally posted by: Astaroth33
It's her choice, as it should be.

DIAF

TARD

Anyways, now that we got the childish 4 letter sayings out of the way. It should be the womans choice, as it's her body. The man should have no say as to what the woman must do. Now the real problem comes from the guy wanting an abortion and the woman not wanting one. I'm more along the way of having the man sign away all right to the baby for a reduction in support. I mean if the woman doesn't want the baby the man has no say, but if the man doesn't want the baby, he also has no say. Since its the woman's body she should be more into keeping it her way than the guy, meaning that the woman should bear more responsiblity in keeping herself from getting pregnant if she's with a guy that she knows doesn't want kids..

 

[BoomerD]

Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor

Originally posted by: BoomerD
Women have all the rights here, because it's their bodies...

What a tired, incorrect argument. Seriously, is the extent of the thought you've put into this the reading of a damn bumper sticker?

What about the baby's body? I suppose they don't deserve any rights? And why is that? Oh ya, because we don't consider them fully human....the same argument used every time a civilization has engaged in genocide. They aren't Romans. They're just Blacks. They're only Jews.

And you know what? Babies aren't forced on anybody. Outside of rape, every women who has ever got pregnant made a DECISION to engage in activity which could lead to it. It reminds me of the time I was doing 110 in a 25mph school zone and a cop pulled me over and was going to cuff me when I explained that I just wanted to speed and didn't want a ticket and he went, okay, have a nice day. And having a kid isn't the end of your life.......WTF else you going to do with your speck of an existence that's more worthwhile?

You plant a tree as a seed. The second that seed starts to germinate and you pluck it from the ground, you're killing a tree. As a society we KNOW this, but we've chosen to ignore it and cover it up with terms like fetus and false arguments like your "it's their body".

Why do fanatics like you always spout that kind of crap..."Oh won't somebody think of the baby?", yet refuse to help provide adequate support for an unwanted child? Forcing a woman to have a child she doesn't want seems more unkind to that child than aborting the mass of cells before it reaches the stage of conciousness...PLUS, it always seems like you "right-to-lifers" support the death penalty and GWB's little war...
Make them give birth, so we can kill them later...

 

[Stuxnet]

Originally posted by: KK

Originally posted by: jbourne77

Originally posted by: Astaroth33
It's her choice, as it should be.

DIAF

TARD

Anyways, now that we got the childish 4 letter sayings out of the way. It should be the womans choice, as it's her body. The man should have no say as to what the woman must do. Now the real problem comes from the guy wanting an abortion and the woman not wanting one. I'm more along the way of having the man sign away all right to the baby for a reduction in support. I mean if the woman doesn't want the baby the man has no say, but if the man doesn't want the baby, he also has no say. Since its the woman's body she should be more into keeping it her way than the guy, meaning that the woman should bear more responsiblity in keeping herself from getting pregnant if she's with a guy that she knows doesn't want kids..

I put about as much thought into my reply as he did his.

Like I said: the whole "it's her body, her choice" is so fscking tired, ignorant, and simple-minded that I suspect anyone who slings such nonsense is too stupid to be reasoned with, so whatever.

 

[mugs]

Originally posted by: BD2003

Originally posted by: mugs
A better topic of discussion would be why a man is not allowed to abdicate his parental responsibilities (including financial responsibilities) early in the pregnancy when the woman is capable of making a decision to keep the child based on that.

Thats actually a very interesting quesion...I'd have to think about that one.

The obvious argument against it is that the financial burden of raising a child is enough to essentially force a woman to give up a child (via abortion or adoption) that she would not otherwise give up.

But then again the man can be forced to give up (via abortion only) his future child...

I'm just glad it's a situation I'll never be in.

 

[fatkorean]

Guys have no rights at all. Women want 50% in equal rights, but in reality its I want 50% of everything you own and you get 0% of mine j/k...

I know a guy who had a kid with a girl, he signed the birth certificate and everything. Pays child support and several years later, found out that the kid wasn't his tough DNA testing.

Do you know what the court said? Tough $hit. The kid already thinks you are her father and you signed the birth certificate. Keep paying up pal...

-fk

 

[Ryan]

Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor

Originally posted by: BoomerD
Women have all the rights here, because it's their bodies...

What a tired, incorrect argument. Seriously, is the extent of the thought you've put into this the reading of a damn bumper sticker?

What about the baby's body? I suppose they don't deserve any rights? And why is that? Oh ya, because we don't consider them fully human....the same argument used every time a civilization has engaged in genocide. They aren't Romans. They're just Blacks. They're only Jews.

And you know what? Babies aren't forced on anybody. Outside of rape, every women who has ever got pregnant made a DECISION to engage in activity which could lead to it. It reminds me of the time I was doing 110 in a 25mph school zone and a cop pulled me over and was going to cuff me when I explained that I just wanted to speed and didn't want a ticket and he went, okay, have a nice day. And having a kid isn't the end of your life.......WTF else you going to do with your speck of an existence that's more worthwhile?

You plant a tree as a seed. The second that seed starts to germinate and you pluck it from the ground, you're killing a tree. As a society we KNOW this, but we've chosen to ignore it and cover it up with terms like fetus and false arguments like your "it's their body". Why? Because it's convenient. Just like having slaves was convenient. Just like being able to blame everything on Jews was convenient.

Fetus /= Baby. I hate to break that too you, because that's what your whole argument hinges itself on. Personhood arguments never hold water.

 

[Ryan]

Originally posted by: jbourne77

Originally posted by: KK

Originally posted by: jbourne77

Originally posted by: Astaroth33
It's her choice, as it should be.

DIAF

TARD

Anyways, now that we got the childish 4 letter sayings out of the way. It should be the womans choice, as it's her body. The man should have no say as to what the woman must do. Now the real problem comes from the guy wanting an abortion and the woman not wanting one. I'm more along the way of having the man sign away all right to the baby for a reduction in support. I mean if the woman doesn't want the baby the man has no say, but if the man doesn't want the baby, he also has no say. Since its the woman's body she should be more into keeping it her way than the guy, meaning that the woman should bear more responsiblity in keeping herself from getting pregnant if she's with a guy that she knows doesn't want kids..

I put about as much thought into my reply as he did his.

Like I said: the whole "it's her body, her choice" is so fscking tired, ignorant, and simple-minded that I suspect anyone who slings such nonsense is too stupid to be reasoned with, so whatever.

Such arguments only prove that you will choose to ignore the facts to push an agenda of your own. Why should a fetus have more rights than a living HUMAN BEING? The life of the mother is always precident over a possible life.

 

[MisterJackson]

Originally posted by: BD2003

Originally posted by: mugs

Originally posted by: jbourne77

Originally posted by: BD2003

Originally posted by: jbourne77

Originally posted by: Astaroth33
It's her choice, as it should be.

DIAF

?

The post was completely void of value and, more importantly, thought. 99% of the people I've met who take the overly simplistic stance of "it's her choice and it should be" are speaking from a total lack of perspective and experience.

It's absurd to say that a woman should be forced to carry a child to term if she does not want to.

A better topic of discussion would be why a man is not allowed to abdicate his parental responsibilities (including financial responsibilities) early in the pregnancy when the woman is capable of making a decision to keep the child based on that.

Thats actually a very interesting quesion...I'd have to think about that one.

That very question was presented to the courts not long ago when a guy brought his case to court for that exact issue. I never heard anything more from it, but it was supposed to be pretty landmark in setting a precedent if he won.

I'm curious as to what was decided.

as for this whole debate, all I can say is that if it happened to me personally I'd do the following:

Ask her to carry the child for me and give birth with full legal documentation drawn up absolving her of any responsibility in the childs life what so ever.

Pay for any and every expense during the pregnancy and offer to pay for whatever services she deemed fairly necessary to bring her body back into shape (i.e., personal trainer, nutritionist, etc.)

finally, if she so choose, I'd offer to pay for therapy for up to a full five years after giving birth for the birth mother.

i'd essentially go to her with the angle of dealing with this as a business transaction.

If she said no, and I was desperate, I'd offer money. It's saad tot hink it, but in a lot of cases that would work.

I suppose if you really wanted to be nasty you could hire the BEST attorney out there and file to have her carry the child. Hell, I'm surprised it hasn't happened yet. If anything, even if a guy lost in that case (very likely), a temporary injunction would be filed right away against her having the preganancy terminated until the courts heard the matter. That could take many months and by then you're more apt to get your way or have her change her mind all together.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor

Originally posted by: BoomerD
Women have all the rights here, because it's their bodies...

What a tired, incorrect argument. Seriously, is the extent of the thought you've put into this the reading of a damn bumper sticker?

What about the baby's body? I suppose they don't deserve any rights? And why is that? Oh ya, because we don't consider them fully human....the same argument used every time a civilization has engaged in genocide. They aren't Romans. They're just Blacks. They're only Jews.

And you know what? Babies aren't forced on anybody. Outside of rape, every women who has ever got pregnant made a DECISION to engage in activity which could lead to it. It reminds me of the time I was doing 110 in a 25mph school zone and a cop pulled me over and was going to cuff me when I explained that I just wanted to speed and didn't want a ticket and he went, okay, have a nice day. And having a kid isn't the end of your life.......WTF else you going to do with your speck of an existence that's more worthwhile?

You plant a tree as a seed. The second that seed starts to germinate and you pluck it from the ground, you're killing a tree. As a society we KNOW this, but we've chosen to ignore it and cover it up with terms like fetus and false arguments like your "it's their body". Why? Because it's convenient. Just like having slaves was convenient. Just like being able to blame everything on Jews was convenient.

If you plant a seed in infertile ground, then the seed will not flourish to maturity. Such is the way of nature. If the mind of the woman does not want your seed, that her "ground" is infertile no matter how capable her body may be.
And as the woman has her choices, so does the man have his choice to find fertile ground for his seed if that is what he wants.

 

[Stuxnet]

Originally posted by: Ryan

Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor

Originally posted by: BoomerD
Women have all the rights here, because it's their bodies...

What a tired, incorrect argument. Seriously, is the extent of the thought you've put into this the reading of a damn bumper sticker?

What about the baby's body? I suppose they don't deserve any rights? And why is that? Oh ya, because we don't consider them fully human....the same argument used every time a civilization has engaged in genocide. They aren't Romans. They're just Blacks. They're only Jews.

And you know what? Babies aren't forced on anybody. Outside of rape, every women who has ever got pregnant made a DECISION to engage in activity which could lead to it. It reminds me of the time I was doing 110 in a 25mph school zone and a cop pulled me over and was going to cuff me when I explained that I just wanted to speed and didn't want a ticket and he went, okay, have a nice day. And having a kid isn't the end of your life.......WTF else you going to do with your speck of an existence that's more worthwhile?

You plant a tree as a seed. The second that seed starts to germinate and you pluck it from the ground, you're killing a tree. As a society we KNOW this, but we've chosen to ignore it and cover it up with terms like fetus and false arguments like your "it's their body". Why? Because it's convenient. Just like having slaves was convenient. Just like being able to blame everything on Jews was convenient.

Fetus /= Baby. I hate to break that too you, because that's what your whole argument hinges itself on. Personhood arguments never hold water.

Only because you choose to believe that Fetus /= Baby. There's no definitive answer one way or the other. My opinion that fetus = baby is just that: my opinion. Your opinion that fetus /= baby is just that : your opinion.

What separates us, apparently, is our moral center. I have one.

 

[Stuxnet]

Originally posted by: Ryan
Such arguments only prove that you will choose to ignore the facts to push an agenda of your own. Why should a fetus have more rights than a living HUMAN BEING? The life of the mother is always precident over a possible life.

Yeah. Especially when she doesn't want to get fat.

BTW, did you know Firefox 2.0 was out?

I knew I should have just kept walking when I saw this thread. I will move along.

 

[Mellman]

he has no right...it is screwed up, but if she wanted it and he didn't....the dude would be stuck paying child support, welcome to the screwed up world

but then again...if you are having sex, you're pretty much accepting the fact that you could get (someone) pregnant...sooo...why not think about this beforehand! Oh wait, we live in a world of morning after pills and acting w/o thinking, duh!

 

[Golgatha]

Originally posted by: Citrix
he has none.

 

[CKent]

Her body, her choice. A fetus has the potential to be human. So do sperm and eggs. So a woman murders every time she menstruates, by the "fetus is human" logic. And men commit genocide every time they screw Palmella Handerson. Birth control as well would be mass murder.

Religion has always been and will always be, in part, a justification of controlling others' lives, ostensibly for the greater good. It's not surprising it has chosen such a strong argument against abortion.

 

[Ryan]

Originally posted by: jbourne77

Originally posted by: Ryan

Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor

Originally posted by: BoomerD
Women have all the rights here, because it's their bodies...

What a tired, incorrect argument. Seriously, is the extent of the thought you've put into this the reading of a damn bumper sticker?

What about the baby's body? I suppose they don't deserve any rights? And why is that? Oh ya, because we don't consider them fully human....the same argument used every time a civilization has engaged in genocide. They aren't Romans. They're just Blacks. They're only Jews.

And you know what? Babies aren't forced on anybody. Outside of rape, every women who has ever got pregnant made a DECISION to engage in activity which could lead to it. It reminds me of the time I was doing 110 in a 25mph school zone and a cop pulled me over and was going to cuff me when I explained that I just wanted to speed and didn't want a ticket and he went, okay, have a nice day. And having a kid isn't the end of your life.......WTF else you going to do with your speck of an existence that's more worthwhile?

You plant a tree as a seed. The second that seed starts to germinate and you pluck it from the ground, you're killing a tree. As a society we KNOW this, but we've chosen to ignore it and cover it up with terms like fetus and false arguments like your "it's their body". Why? Because it's convenient. Just like having slaves was convenient. Just like being able to blame everything on Jews was convenient.

Fetus /= Baby. I hate to break that too you, because that's what your whole argument hinges itself on. Personhood arguments never hold water.

Only because you choose to believe that Fetus /= Baby. There's no definitive answer one way or the other. My opinion that fetus = baby is just that: my opinion. Your opinion that fetus /= baby is just that : your opinion.

What separates us, apparently, is our moral center. I have one.

Yeah - social justice is such a bad belief to have. You yourself admit to the ambiguity and subjectivity of personhood arguments, yet you still cling to them dearly as a universal truth. It's a sad day, when someone admits they have no real ground to stand on, and yet they still try to stand, and fall on their face without knowing.

 

[nakedfrog]

Originally posted by: jbourne77
What separates us, apparently, is our moral center. I have one.

:roll: and a

 

[senseamp]

He has the right to lock her in the closet until she gives birth, no?

 

[sixone]

Originally posted by: Ryan
Fetus /= Baby. I hate to break that too you, because that's what your whole argument hinges itself on. Personhood arguments never hold water.

It's a baby if I want it, and a fetus if I don't. That's the ONLY difference.

 

[Specop 007]

Originally posted by: rbV5

Its so completely unfair that a woman has all the say in the issue and the man has none.

Funny, but a man has pretty much an equal say when planning children/family with their wives, and pretty much all the say when practicing safe sex.

You cant silo this into one specific example.
What about one night stands? Do I still have a say in her decision? What if its my girlfriend? Do I still have a say in it?

As for practicingt safe sex, theres as many options open to women as there are to men if not more, so again siloing this as "Well men have all the say in safe sex" is being just ignorant on the issue.

 

[Stuxnet]

Originally posted by: sixone

Originally posted by: Ryan
Fetus /= Baby. I hate to break that too you, because that's what your whole argument hinges itself on. Personhood arguments never hold water.

It's a baby if I want it, and a fetus if I don't. That's the ONLY difference.

Okay that was just pure and simple pwnage.

(ok I'll really leave now)

 

[Specop 007]

Originally posted by: rbV5

Originally posted by: Specop 007

Originally posted by: yukichigai
None, and I'll tell you why: the guy isn't the one who has to spend 9 months throwing up every morning, peeing every 5 minutes, inhaling food like a garbage disposal and going damn near crazy from the hormones. As soon as the day comes that a doctor can safely pop the fetus out of the woman and put it into a) an artificial womb of some kind, or b) the guy who wants to keep the kid, then men will have equal rights over whether or not to keep the baby.

Frankly, I really want to see that type of procedure become available. Rather than forcing, say, a recently raped woman to choose between an unwanted pregnancy or terminating a fetus, it would be a wonderful thing to offer the option of removing the fetus and letting it become a child without having it cause havoc with her body. The woman keeps control of her body, the possibility of life becomes actual life. Everybody wins!

Yeah, and the girl isnt the one who spends the next 18 years supporting a deadbeat mother and kid.

Deadbeat fathers drop the ball most of all. While grandparents and the State increasingly take carry of the burden when Momma doesn't have the "enthusiasm" for the job, unwed fathers are far far worse.

I wont pretend to think men are all stand up guys, but the flip side is if you might get roped into child support payments you damn well better have a say in it.