IDE Drive Interfaces

[corkyg]

Why do knowledgeable folks refer to PATA drives as IDE? SATA drives are also IDE. In fact, ALL current hard drives today are IDE - that means they have Integrated Drive Electronics. There are two interfaces for these IDE drives, parallel ATA (PATA) and serial ATA (SATA.)

 

[BonzaiDuck]

Why do knowledgeable folks refer to PATA drives as IDE? SATA drives are also IDE. In fact, ALL current hard drives today are IDE - that means they have Integrated Drive Electronics. There are two interfaces for these IDE drives, parallel ATA (PATA) and serial ATA (SATA.)

Yes. Absolutely. Positively. But what's the point? What I need to know is where I can either solder 5V and ground or simply "plug it in" to the bay PCB of my "PATA" hot-swap bay so that the "PATA"-to-SATA adapter I hook up to it turns on or off with the keyswitch on the caddy.

 

[bbhaag]

I think it has to do a little bit with motherboard manufactures missing the boat on translations in the BIOS.
My Asus mb BIOS uses the term IDE for the PATA interface. Well actually it is more confusing than that. They use SATA as the generic term and then you have the option to choose either IDE or AHCI.

Explain that one.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

I think it has to do a little bit with motherboard manufactures missing the boat on translations in the BIOS.
My Asus mb BIOS uses the term IDE for the PATA interface. Well actually it is more confusing than that. They use SATA as the generic term and then you have the option to choose either IDE or AHCI.

Explain that one.

This is a matter of semantics and usage. We refer to "IDE" or "PATA" as the interface with the 40-pin adapter and 40- or 80-conductor ribbon cable. For most, that era is long over. I just happen to have some 500GB IDE drives with low-mileage and a possibility to use them. You don't even find the PATA controller on motherboards anymore: you'd need to purchase a PCI card, otherwise.

 

[bbhaag]

My mb actually has a PATA slot. I still use it in conjunction with a 80gb western digital drive.
I'm not saying that translation issues are the entire reason but maybe a contributing factor.

 

[Ketchup]

IDE was the name of a standard. One which has long since passed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_ATA#Features_introduced_with_each_ATA_revision

Now, you could take the meaning of the words themselves, and say that it is still relevant, but the IDE standard is dead.

 

[corkyg]

In my day-to-day PC, I have both SATA and PATA ports on the mobo. I have external drive cases to USB that are either one or both. If I had extra HDDs, I would consider using a USB dock which can handle 2.5, 3.5, PATA or SATA drives without any adapters. My three SATA OS drives are in hot swap trayless mobile racks. Switching from 7 to 8.1 or 10 is very easy.

No real point except technical curiosity.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

In my day-to-day PC, I have both SATA and PATA ports on the mobo. I have external drive cases to USB that are either one or both. If I had extra HDDs, I would consider using a USB dock which can handle 2.5, 3.5, PATA or SATA drives without any adapters. My three SATA OS drives are in hot swap trayless mobile racks. Switching from 7 to 8.1 or 10 is very easy.

No real point except technical curiosity.

I'm a bit weak for offering up old schlock for Ebay sale, but I don't think too many folks are likely to buy my IDE drives (even for low mileage) or the bay with caddies. Sometime between 2006 and 2008, the bay/caddy was about $55, 2 spare caddies about $35 each or $70, and the drives were ~$75 each. That's $350. I am bent on squeezing life out of these "old" drives, bay and caddies. Even if I can't have true "hot-swap," but I believe I can. I'm just "moving slowly" on it, and I'd made mistakes ordering parts from the EGG that don't resolve the problem.

Got my RMA tickets and UPS labels ready to go, though! So it's costing me mostly "retired-person" time.

Got anything better to do, than watch the news about Cooly-booly, Charlie Hebdo, the Coochy-Koo brothers or Boumedienne-on-the-lam?

Draw your cartoons and stay anonymous-at-home, I say! Or piddle with hardware! Sure a lot better than those nutcases playing with hardware, don't you think? My IDE (sorry-- PATA) drives don't blow up!

 

[GunsMadeAmericaFree]

Why do knowledgeable folks refer to PATA drives as IDE? SATA drives are also IDE. In fact, ALL current hard drives today are IDE - that means they have Integrated Drive Electronics. There are two interfaces for these IDE drives, parallel ATA (PATA) and serial ATA (SATA.)

That's an easy one - because the outside of the retail box (still sitting on my shelf) says IDE, not PATA. If the company called it that, and marketed it as that, then why shouldn't I?

I see where you are coming from, but I rarely uptake newer usage when they retcon the name of something. I also don't use the European style of dots for phone numbers, since that was always supposed to be an easy way for us to see whether a phone number was American or European.

I think they did something similar to the VGA port - I rarely see it referred to as VGA any longer. What do they call it these days?

 

[VirtualLarry]

I think they did something similar to the VGA port - I rarely see it referred to as VGA any longer. What do they call it these days?

They call it the "D-Sub" port. Which, while correct, is hardly specific. Parallel and Serial ports are also D-Sub connectors.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

I don't know if I should apologize for starting threads about resurrecting my StarTech hot-swap bay, caddies, and low-mileage Hitachi 500GB IDE drives. Maybe the OP here just randomly or independently began this thread, but "IDE" and "hot-swap" has been bouncing around my cerebellum for days now.

So I'll stick this question in here, per a discovery I just made (and I must be stupid for not having seen it before.)

OK. WHS-'11 (2008 R2) server. Added my hot-swap bay from a decommissioned system. bundled hotswap software doesn't work with 64-bit OS. Discovered DIY projects on the web whereby someone had hard-wired their bay PCB to an IDE-to-SATA adapter, so the adapter "turns off" when the key-switch turns off the drive. Decided I wanted to avoid soldering on the only IDE hot-swap bay I have. Tried different hardware, like IDE-to-USB2 adapter cable, etc. etc. Same problem: the adapter is still a "device" -- still powered -- even for executing "safely remove" on the drive.

Won't go into the my "wiring project" not likely to damage the bay but powering an adapter from a two-pin plug on that bay -- causing the adapter to go "pop!" and give off a blue light like something in the movie "Powder." So? I blew the adapter. Bay is ok. SATA-controller, ok. Drive is ok. REplaced the IDE to SATA adapter with the remaining spare (these were purchased five years ago).

So. What happens when you execute "safely remove . . "? A yellow bang "!" node appears in the "disks and drives" of device manager: "Drive prepared for removal, but still connected. Power down the drive and remove it."

So. I clicked "uninstall" on the device-manager tree for the "Hitachi device." OK, so far, so good.

Now, I turn the key-switch, lights go off, and I swap the first Hitachi caddy with another Hitachi drive and caddy.

"Bee-bump!" "Installing driver for . . .Hitachi blah blah blah." "Device is ready for use."

I hot-swapped my IDE drive with another without power-cycling the system! Is this right? Is that what I did?

If that's what I did, then this is so simple I must be stupid.

I cannot believe I went through all this trouble for little of nuthin'!!

 

[Fred B]

Could be mistaken but i would not hot swap an IDE / PATA hd , it is the design of the Sata connector with Hot-swap capability . Staggered pins allow power in curtain order in the hd to prevent damage to hd/ssd . What if certain pins of the disk connect before other, could be just a microsecond .

 

[dave_the_nerd]

They call it the "D-Sub" port. Which, while correct, is hardly specific. Parallel and Serial ports are also D-Sub connectors.

VGS isn't helpful either, though - VGA is a specific graphics standard, and there are mini-VGA ports. (SVGA port? XGA port?)

Its names are legion.

And most of them could also be applied to other ports equally correctly.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

Could be mistaken but i would not hot swap an IDE / PATA hd , it is the design of the Sata connector with Hot-swap capability . Staggered pins allow power in curtain order in the hd to prevent damage to hd/ssd . What if certain pins of the disk connect before other, could be just a microsecond .

Not attempting to start a major debate on this, but I think there are "myths."

First, the bay and caddy for the IDE's are designed with that in mind.

Second -- and I hadn't really thought about this until today -- direct IDE hot-swap was facilitated through software which isn't anymore available for 64-bit systems, since IDE is only legacy technology now.

Third, if hot-swapping had been enabled that way, then it was managed through the Windows HAL or hardware layer. And it suddenly dawned on me that the swapping software may have only made it more easy to do what could already be done.

Fourth, if the drive is pre-configured for "Quick Removal," Windows even reports that it could be swapped out without use of the "Safely Remove" process from the system tray.

Fifth -- another point: you cannot remove the drive from the bay until it has been powered down through the keyswitch, which then unlocks the caddy for removal. So surges or other power problems would not occur.

This leaves the issue of having a "powered" IDE-to-SATA adapter, with SATA itself being "swappable." The adapter seems to pass through information about the drive so that the drive itself appears in the DM "Disks and Drive" node of the DM tree. Some folks have elected to mod their bay to shut off power to the adapter at the time the key-switch is turned for removal. But at that point, if all data has been flushed to the disk and Windows correctly reports that "the drive has been prepared for removal," then the only real issue is the Device manager node, which recognizes the adapter by the "pass through" information about the drive.

So "uninstalling" that node from the DM tree then makes it possible to swap another drive back in -- the problem that seemed to arise once "Safe Removal" had been accomplished -- even if the drive had been powered down and physically removed. By "uninstalling," once a new drive is swapped back into the bay and powered by locking the key-switch, Windows signals the recognition of the "device" with the audio and messages that appear when you connect a USB external device.

The purveyors of IDE-to-SATA adapters sometimes assert a caution in their guides and instructions: "While the adapter's SATA capability is 'technically' hot-swappable, we do not recommend removing the adapter from its plug on [the back of the bare hard-drive (or-- the back of the hot-swap bay] -- speaking to serious damage to the adapter and POSSIBLY the bay assembly.

But we am not doing that. we're not disconnecting an IDE cable not designed to be removed with the system powered on. Instead, we followed Windows own advice after "Drive has been prepared for removal:" " . . . Power down the storage device and remove it." So -- we turn the keyswitch, turning off power to the drive. Then, "uninstalling" the "mass storage device" still reflecting the drive's manufacture and model, actually "removes" the adapter so that inserting a drive and powering it back on can be recognized as a "new mass storage device."

This is the alternative to actually powering down both the adapter AND the drive with the wiring mod. But how otherwise would that differ from "uninstalling" the vestiges of the "storage device" -- which really represents the powered adapter?

The wiring mod had proven totally safe and convenient for a UK electronics expert over a three-year period -- no drives lost, corrupted or damaged. In my case, the adapter remains "powered" but removed from Windows recognition until either another drive is swapped back in and key-switched on. In all cases, all the data would be flushed to the drive before turning the keyswitch; no "live" electrical connections are broken (per the caution by the adapter manufacturer).

I suppose only time will tell, but I'd read or heard from others the "uninstallation" in the device-manager had worked for them. Some had also suggested "unmounting" the drive in "Disk Management" of "Computer Management," but I think this is essentially what happens through the "Safely-Remove" icon and pop-up list.

Again -- only time will tell. Since I'm not breaking electrical connections through anything other than the key-switch, since the drive was configured for "quick removal," I'm willing to bet there will be no "data" casualty or hardware casualty.

time will tell . . .

 

[BonzaiDuck]

I add this as a separate post, because I find there's still one question I need to answer which may have been addressed by the DIY hard-wiring of the conversion adapter to the hot-swap bay PCB.

Before I discovered this matter of using Device Manager "Uninstall" to "remove" a drive that has been "prepared for removal," I also discovered that boot-up with the adapter connected and no drive attached causes the controller BIOS post-sequence to hang. This is resolved by powering down the machine, removing the SATA cable and/or the 4-pin floppy power to the adapter. This MAY be the advantage of the hardwired solution.

I have yet to test this to my satisfaction. I have doubts that simply uninstalling the "device" in DM doesn't leave us with a "powered-on" problem at system boot. I'm going to find out, either way, or shall we say -- "verify" it one way or the other.

So this leaves a paradox. You can "safely remove" such an IDE-to-SATA drive assembly in the two steps I mentioned; why would Windows confirm that the drive is "prepared for removal?" That seems to work.

But if you want to reboot the system without leaving a drive powered in the bay, you may have to power down and disconnect first.

I also recall hearing a distinction in terminology. "Hot-Swap" versus "Warm Swap."

Anyway, I'm going to explore my PCI_E SATA controller BIOS to see if there's something to be done that alleviates that one final (likely, possible) advantage to the hardwired mod.

All those details will soon be posted here. You know it! I don't have to guar-an-tee!

[day or so later . . . ] I haven't tested it yet, and I believe the outcome will have the same "hung-in-controller-BIOS-post" ending. But so? You can leave a drive in with key-switch on/locked if you need to reboot, then go through the safe-removal, IDE power-down and device "uninstall" within Device Manager -> Disk Drives. There would only be risk to the IDE-to-SATA adapter for leaving it powered on but uninstalled. Certainly less power draw than the drive itself -- probably a lot less. So . . . . mission accomplished, no soldering disasters or blown caps and certainly no multi-meter tedium in preparation for the soldering.