Idaho considering concealed carry on campus

[Nebor]

Originally posted by: umbrella39
Cool, let these college's allow whatever they want.

Their enrollment will decline to the point that they have to rescind it eventually imo. I know nothing would make me prouder than to know that I have been saving for years for my kids college so I can send them to a school where their classmates are carrying firearms. Is the gun included in the tuition or do you have to get it a the college bookstore after you have registered for you classes?

College students aren't allowed to carry firearms under this proposal. Only citzens licensed by the government to carry concealed handguns.

Oh, and all the schools in Utah, California, New York and those other states were concealed handgun licensees can carry on campus sure are empty. I mean who's ever heard of USC? NYU? Syracuse? Standford? Ghost schools.

EDIT: And it's not individual college's decision. It's a change in state law to allow concealed handgun licensees to carry on state property. Private schools can still do whatever they want. Hope you've been saving enough money to send your kids to a private school.

 

[Genx87]

Fair enough...but is there any evidence to suggest it actually makes a place any safer? Because it's NOT just presented as people defending themselves, concealed carry is almost always presented as a certain way to prevent any and all crime...and as far as I'm aware, there aren't a lot of facts to back that up.

You cant prevent crime. You can only hope to contain it. I side with C&C because a person should have a right to defend themselves with the most effective weapon available. And I dont even own a gun.

As for the facts, they get glaxed over or not reported at all. The numbers that the DoJ can attain is 2.1 million crimes a year are stopped by people using a firearm.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, the "infatuation" anti-gun folks have is based in a large part on the apparent nuttiness of the pro-gun folks. I tend to come down on the side of gun rights, and self-defense rights, but I can understand the other point of view. No matter how many times you say otherwise, the gun nut crowd comes across as a little crazy to the folks who aren't gun owners, and this hardly helps when you're talking about self defense. If the people arguing for concealed carry on college campuses seemed liked reasonable people who just want the option of defending themselves and their fellow students, I honestly don't think there would be any problem. But instead, a lot of them seem to affect this suburban commando mentality that seems just one step above joining a militia in Idaho and living in the woods with 600 lbs of canned goods.

What is so nutty about wanting to allow people to defend themselves from criminals? I find the opposite more true. Anybody who feels they have a right to deny people access to a weapon in order to defend themselves are off their rocker.

And I know you know this, because you're not stupid. This is a divided issue because, on some level, I think the gun folks WANT it that way. How difficult would it be to act like normal people who just want to defend themselves? I know this is possible because a lot of people do it...just not enough to change some popular perceptions. And I understand that gun culture is something that some people just don't get, so why not HELP them "get" it instead of going even farther in the wrong direction?

What do "gun" folks gain by having the nation divided on this issue?

 

[compman25]

Originally posted by: Nebor
http://www.idahostatesman.com/531/story/288019.html

Glad to see the lives of college students in Idaho are worth defending. Looks like these reforms are sweeping the nation, just like Shall Issue concealed carry swept the nation 10 years ago. :thumbsup:

I take it NIU students aren't allowed CCW?

 

[xeemzor]

Originally posted by: compman25

Originally posted by: Nebor
http://www.idahostatesman.com/531/story/288019.html

Glad to see the lives of college students in Idaho are worth defending. Looks like these reforms are sweeping the nation, just like Shall Issue concealed carry swept the nation 10 years ago. :thumbsup:

I take it NIU students aren't allowed CCW?

It's pretty much impossible to get CCW in IL.

 

[GenHoth]

Its Illinois, of course not

 

[JD50]

Originally posted by: Uhtrinity

Originally posted by: Pale Rider

Originally posted by: Uhtrinity
I hope this bill fails as we don't need guns on our college campuses.

Why not?

Give me a valid reason why we needs guns on campus in Idaho of all places? We already have a pretty low crime rate, and campus crime is even lower. This isn't exactly LA or DC. I'm not saying we don't have crime, but whenever you do it is usually has nothing to do with a school or campus. This is just reactionary bullshit from the gun lobby and state republicans that IMHO will not make a mostly crime free environment any safer.

This is my opinion and unless someone can give some hard numbers I'm not interested in changing my mind.

Do you also require a valid reason as to why we need the freedom of speech on a college campus?

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Fair enough...but is there any evidence to suggest it actually makes a place any safer? Because it's NOT just presented as people defending themselves, concealed carry is almost always presented as a certain way to prevent any and all crime...and as far as I'm aware, there aren't a lot of facts to back that up.

You cant prevent crime. You can only hope to contain it. I side with C&C because a person should have a right to defend themselves with the most effective weapon available. And I dont even own a gun.

As for the facts, they get glaxed over or not reported at all. The numbers that the DoJ can attain is 2.1 million crimes a year are stopped by people using a firearm.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, the "infatuation" anti-gun folks have is based in a large part on the apparent nuttiness of the pro-gun folks. I tend to come down on the side of gun rights, and self-defense rights, but I can understand the other point of view. No matter how many times you say otherwise, the gun nut crowd comes across as a little crazy to the folks who aren't gun owners, and this hardly helps when you're talking about self defense. If the people arguing for concealed carry on college campuses seemed liked reasonable people who just want the option of defending themselves and their fellow students, I honestly don't think there would be any problem. But instead, a lot of them seem to affect this suburban commando mentality that seems just one step above joining a militia in Idaho and living in the woods with 600 lbs of canned goods.

What is so nutty about wanting to allow people to defend themselves from criminals? I find the opposite more true. Anybody who feels they have a right to deny people access to a weapon in order to defend themselves are off their rocker.

There's nothing nutty about that...but that's not all some people advocate. There is nothing at all wrong with a desire for self defense, but like I said, there is reasonable, rational self defense and the kind of paranoid over reaction that totally turns off people not already part of the movement. I'm way more into martial arts as a form of self defense than I am into guns, but the self defense principles are still basically the same. I'm all for defending yourself, but I haven't in my entire life talked about martial arts as most gun folks seem to talk about guns on any given day. And if someone doesn't understand the concepts behind martial arts, I try and explain it to them like I DON'T think they are communists out to destroy America.

Like I said, it's not the basic ideas, it's how people advocate them. To modify a phrase from the NRA crowd...my problem with gun nuts isn't the guns, it's that they're nuts.

And I know you know this, because you're not stupid. This is a divided issue because, on some level, I think the gun folks WANT it that way. How difficult would it be to act like normal people who just want to defend themselves? I know this is possible because a lot of people do it...just not enough to change some popular perceptions. And I understand that gun culture is something that some people just don't get, so why not HELP them "get" it instead of going even farther in the wrong direction?

What do "gun" folks gain by having the nation divided on this issue?

I think you're making the assumption that the entire purpose of this debate is to result in the universal ability for people to defend themselves with whatever weapon they so choose. Given the rhetoric involved, that seems unlikely. What seems more likely is that gun ownership and gun culture are basically social props for people to talk about how tough they are. The whole "in your face" attitude, while counter-productive to converting anyone, makes perfect sense if you look at it from the image perspective. Being just a normal guy who happens to own a gun totally defeats the purpose of HAVING a gun if you're using it as a prop as much as you're using it as a tool for self defense.

I don't know...maybe I'm overanalyzing this. But every time I hear someone ranting and raving about people trying to take their guns, I get the feeling that a great deal of their self-image is wrapped up in the whole thing. Sure, self-defense is probably in there too...but I can't help thinking that certain people are enjoying this debate a little too much.

By the way, I think you should understand...I support the right to own and carry a weapon, and I support the right to self-defense. But whatever my views my be on the issue, the manner in which this debate is conducted really pisses me off.

 

[ericlp]

ya know... I'm all for owning your own gun and even to be able to take it with you if you have the correct know how to use it.

How far are we gonna go with this? How would you like this to show up at your local bank, shopping mall, public event or a town near you?

http://www.snotr.com/video/870

All these tuff guys on here that want these laws changed could be in for a surprise. Last I heard the military isn't buying and they are selling semi automatic versions for under a grand.... I guess a few people have modified fully auto kits that can be purchased... Oh well! only a matter of time I guess. I don't care how many concealed guns you got your no match for this... someone shows up with one of these to the party and it's all over with.... Yeah and I got a permit for it too! hahahaha

Good Luck! Your gonna need it. I guess I am for a complete ban on all guns.... Even tho I own a shotgun for home protection I'd be willing to give it up.

 

[OFFascist]

Originally posted by: ericlp
ya know... I'm all for owning your own gun and even to be able to take it with you if you have the correct know how to use it.

How far are we gonna go with this? How would you like this to show up at your local bank, shopping mall, public event or a town near you?

http://www.snotr.com/video/870

All these tuff guys on here that want these laws changed could be in for a surprise. Last I heard the military isn't buying and they are selling semi automatic versions for under a grand.... I guess a few people have modified fully auto kits that can be purchased... Oh well! only a matter of time I guess. I don't care how many concealed guns you got your no match for this... someone shows up with one of these to the party and it's all over with.... Yeah and I got a permit for it too! hahahaha

Good Luck! Your gonna need it. I guess I am for a complete ban on all guns.... Even tho I own a shotgun for home protection I'd be willing to give it up.

IMO if someone is going to "massacre" people that is no more deadly than your typical pump action shotgun. Infact if someone was going full auto with it it would probably be less deadly since you would have fewer people more shot up.

FWIW I also have not heard of or see any new production AA-12s for sale even semi-auto civillian ones. Maybe its still preproduction right now.

I do however own a Saiga-12 similar to this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-eGP62sdds

I do not however own a 20 round drum.

 

[senseamp]

Yay, that's what we need, drunk college students with guns. Of course we know that college students are very responsible bunch.

 

[PrinceofWands]

Originally posted by: senseamp
Yay, that's what we need, drunk college students with guns. Of course we know that college students are very responsible bunch.

The ones old enough to carry concealed must be, or they would have caused problems already.

 

[Uhtrinity]

Originally posted by: JD50

Do you also require a valid reason as to why we need the freedom of speech on a college campus?

This is even worse than the security guard question! Free speech is a constitutional guarantee, concealed weapons carry on the same campus isn't. Why is it that I have to be first painted as an anti-gun nut because I oppose the passing of this bill, and now I much be anti-free speech?

 

[Nebor]

Originally posted by: Uhtrinity

Originally posted by: JD50

Do you also require a valid reason as to why we need the freedom of speech on a college campus?

This is even worse than the security guard question! Free speech is a constitutional guarantee, concealed weapons carry on the same campus isn't. Why is it that I have to be first painted as an anti-gun nut because I oppose the passing of this bill, and now I much be anti-free speech?

Because you've presented no valid points beyond emotional appeal for your active position (banning the possession of something.) Whereas we've given you plenty of reasons why it can do no harm to allow certain people to carry on campus.

 

[Nebor]

Originally posted by: senseamp
Yay, that's what we need, drunk college students with guns. Of course we know that college students are very responsible bunch.

I think you either didn't read the thread, or you did and you're trying to sensationalize it with an ignorant emotional argument. My standard response to this is: College kids will not be allowed to carry guns on campus. Only concealed handguns licensees will.

 

[Uhtrinity]

Originally posted by: Nebor

Originally posted by: Uhtrinity

Originally posted by: JD50

Do you also require a valid reason as to why we need the freedom of speech on a college campus?

This is even worse than the security guard question! Free speech is a constitutional guarantee, concealed weapons carry on the same campus isn't. Why is it that I have to be first painted as an anti-gun nut because I oppose the passing of this bill, and now I much be anti-free speech?

Because you've presented no valid points beyond emotional appeal for your active position (banning the possession of something.) Whereas we've given you plenty of reasons why it can do no harm to allow certain people to carry on campus.

Who is giving the emotional appeal? All I see is,"Wtf, There have been some shootings in Colleges elsewhere in the country .... we need concealed carry on campus to protect ourselves."

That to me is an emotional overreaction, and no one as presented an unbiased source that shows that concealed carry on campus will help stop those isolated incidents. You also say that I want something banned, which isn't the case as it is already law. 49 out of 50 states (correct me if I am wrong) currently ban civilian concealed carry on public campuses. Utah is that one state, and the argument didn't start or gain speed until the Virginia Tech incident.

You want that law changed, but imho the burden of evidence is on you, so far all I hear are potential scenarios of what would happen, in counter I could give you negative scenarios.

1. Frat boys with concealed carry get drunked up .... shooting occurs that wouldn't have occurred otherwise. I am aware they would lose their licenses and get fined for use of alcohol while carrying, but I can still imagine the headlines.

2. Gunmen opens fire on students / faculty. Ccw holder shoots / attempts to shoot the shooter, a 3rd ccw holder sees this and shoots the first ccw holder thinking he / she is the culprit.

I could keep going, but it would be totally pointless as you believe as strongly in your 'cause' as I am about not changing the current laws. Imho The cowboy era of the 1800's is over and there is little to no reason for civilians to carry, especially on campuses. I am content to leave that role to security and law enforcement officials.

 

[Uhtrinity]

Originally posted by: Nebor

Originally posted by: senseamp
Yay, that's what we need, drunk college students with guns. Of course we know that college students are very responsible bunch.

I think you either didn't read the thread, or you did and you're trying to sensationalize it with an ignorant emotional argument. My standard response to this is: College kids will not be allowed to carry guns on campus. Only College kids with concealed handguns licensees will.

Fixed

 

[Nebor]

Originally posted by: Uhtrinity

Originally posted by: Nebor

Originally posted by: Uhtrinity

Originally posted by: JD50

Do you also require a valid reason as to why we need the freedom of speech on a college campus?

This is even worse than the security guard question! Free speech is a constitutional guarantee, concealed weapons carry on the same campus isn't. Why is it that I have to be first painted as an anti-gun nut because I oppose the passing of this bill, and now I much be anti-free speech?

Because you've presented no valid points beyond emotional appeal for your active position (banning the possession of something.) Whereas we've given you plenty of reasons why it can do no harm to allow certain people to carry on campus.

Who is giving the emotional appeal? All I see is,"Wtf, There have been some shootings in Colleges elsewhere in the country .... we need concealed carry on campus to protect ourselves."

That to me is an emotional overreaction, and no one as presented an unbiased source that shows that concealed carry on campus will help stop those isolated incidents. You also say that I want something banned, which isn't the case as it is already law. 49 out of 50 states (correct me if I am wrong) currently ban civilian concealed carry on public campuses. Utah is that one state, and the argument didn't start or gain speed until the Virginia Tech incident.

You want that law changed, but imho the burden of evidence is on you, so far all I hear are potential scenarios of what would happen, in counter I could give you negative scenarios.

1. Frat boys with concealed carry get drunked up .... shooting occurs that wouldn't have occurred otherwise. I am aware they would lose their licenses and get fined for use of alcohol while carrying, but I can still imagine the headlines.

2. Gunmen opens fire on students / faculty. Ccw holder shoots / attempts to shoot the shooter, a 3rd ccw holder sees this and shoots the first ccw holder thinking he / she is the culprit.

I could keep going, but it would be totally pointless as you believe as strongly in your 'cause' as I am about not changing the current laws. Imho The cowboy era of the 1800's is over and there is little to no reason for civilians to carry, especially on campuses. I am content to leave that role to security and law enforcement officials.

None of your situations have EVER Happened ANYWHERE. I don't know why you think CHL holders are going to walk onto a college campus and say, "Ya know, I didn't feel like going nuts at the grocery store or the bank, but shit, I'm going to get drunk and shoot up the place!"

THese are the same tired arguments we heard when concealed carry first swept the nation (all but 2 states.) None of them ever happened. No "chain shootings" like in scenario number two. No drunken shootouts like in scenario number one.

You are surrounded by people with concealed handguns EVERYWHERE (even at school,) and nothing bad happens. They don't shoot each other at convenience stores, they don't rob the bank, so why would they lose it at college?

And how about the already posted facts in this thread that shows that CHL holders are less likely to commit a violent crime than a police officer?

Let's turn this around: Do you think you should be able to carry a concealed handgun on campus? Why or why not?

 

[Uhtrinity]

Originally posted by: Nebor


None of your situations have EVER Happened ANYWHERE. I don't know why you think CHL holders are going to walk onto a college campus and say, "Ya know, I didn't feel like going nuts at the grocery store or the bank, but shit, I'm going to get drunk and shoot up the place!"

I never said cw holders committed crimes, but I can imagine some worldly cw carrying college student making a stupid decision and getting someone hurt.

Originally posted by: Nebor
THese are the same tired arguments we heard when concealed carry first swept the nation (all but 2 states.) None of them ever happened. No "chain shootings" like in scenario number two. No drunken shootouts like in scenario number one.

So you will admit my scenario is as unlikely as cw carrying college student saves the day?

Originally posted by: Nebor
You are surrounded by people with concealed handguns EVERYWHERE (even at school,) and nothing bad happens. They don't shoot each other at convenience stores, they don't rob the bank, so why would they lose it at college?

First, the number of cw permits is pretty low, even in a red / rural state like Idaho, second guns are not allowed in Idaho schools, other than by law enforcement and security personnel, That is after all what this argument is about. I also work in a K-8 school (computer lab teacher), and I can say without a shadow of a doubt that 100% of the faculty members would not support a law like this. I would even say that in a general vote the public wouldn't pass such a law.

Originally posted by: Nebor
And how about the already posted facts in this thread that shows that CHL holders are less likely to commit a violent crime than a police officer?

Again, I never said I disagree with that argument, but we are talking about college campuses here, which have 'kids' attending. College kids aren't exactly known for making good sound decisions, and since they are the bulk of the population of a campus they are bound to cw carry if the bill passes.

Originally posted by: Nebor
Let's turn this around: Do you think you should be able to carry a concealed handgun on campus? Why or why not?

Again, NO, I am against cw carry on campus because I don't trust the untrained judgment of a college student who might be put into a position where he / she might use their firearm. I choose to leave it to the professionals, not the Wanna-be-Rambos. However, in general I do support cw carry, just not in schools, college campuses, courthouses, hospitals, or places of large public gatherings (for the same reasons I already put forth).

edit: On further thought, if it is a situation where you or your loved ones are in danger, by all means protect yourself. But it is not your responsibility or right to attempt to protect another, especially if you aren't properly trained to do so. This is the reasoning behind where I believe cw carry should and shouldn't be allowed.

 

[Nebor]

You realize the "professionals" you're trusting qualify once a year, right?

And they're more likely to commit a crime than a chl holder.

If these college kids are so darn irresponsible, how can you trust them with cars?

Your arguments are extremely emotional, when all the facts show that concealed carry does no harm, and MIGHT do some good.

If someone's coming to shoot you, do you want to have a gun to defend yourself, or not? It's really that simple.

 

[Uhtrinity]

Originally posted by: Nebor
You realize the "professionals" you're trusting qualify once a year, right?

And they're more likely to commit a crime than a chl holder.

If these college kids are so darn irresponsible, how can you trust them with cars?

Your arguments are extremely emotional, when all the facts show that concealed carry does no harm, and MIGHT do some good.

If someone's coming to shoot you, do you want to have a gun to defend yourself, or not? It's really that simple.

And cw holders qualify more often and have tactical training?

Insurance companies obviously don't trust those from age 16 into their early 20's ... they pay higeher rates.

Again, I don't want to be protected by someone who potentially can do more harm than good.

Obviously I don't live according to fear as you do. If put in a situation to where I need to defend myself or my family I would, but that has happened ZERO times in my 37 years, and I have lived all over the US.

 

[Red Dawn]

Instead of concealed permits just let them wear holster with guns like the did in the Wild West.

 

[StageLeft]

Guns are too ubiquitous in this country and gun laws need to be looked at stricter bu in this case it seems simple to me. If you want to shoot up a school, you will get a gun. If you want to potentially see the shooter and do something, it will be too late unless you were already carrying. I doubt it would do much anyway, though. Most won't carry guns.

Instead of concealed permits just let them wear holster with guns like the did in the Wild West.

An an ammo belt with shells over one's chest!

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: Uhtrinity
If put in a situation where I need to defend myself, or my family, I would

...with what? ninjitsu?!

but that has happened ZERO times in my 37 years, and I have lived all over the US.

I'm sure these kids and their teacher felt the same way... right up until the first bullets started flying yesterday! After all, it happened "ZERO times" in their X number of years...

Then they died.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Instead of concealed permits just let them wear holster with guns like the did in the Wild West.

But then you'd lose the element of surprise... which is why allowing cc permits might actually work.

 

[Uhtrinity]

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: Uhtrinity
If put in a situation where I need to defend myself, or my family, I would

...with what? ninjitsu?!

but that has happened ZERO times in my 37 years, and I have lived all over the US.

I'm sure these kids and their teacher felt the same way... right up until the first bullets started flying yesterday! After all, it happened "ZERO times" in their X number of years...

Then they died.

Fear, 911, fear ... sounds familiar, and I was the one accused basing my decision on emotion. Last I heard fear was an emotion. If I lived with that much fear I doubt I would go outside.



edit: To the OP, why not add a poll to this thread. Something along the lines of do you support or opposed concealed carry on a college campus?