Id Software's Rage not using OpenGL for PC?

[Sureshot324]

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If true this looks like the final nail in the coffin for OpenGL gaming. I've very interested in hearing Carmak's explanation for this.

 

[bunnyfubbles]

yeah, it seems especially strange that they're actually developing a version for Mac using OpenGL...wouldn't it be far more efficient to develop both with OpenGL? Doesn't seem worth it to bother with Mac otherwise...

 

[Genx87]

A. Doesnt OpenGL under Vista require some emulation layer?
B. If they are developing this for the 360 it can be developed in tandum.

 

[hooflung]

Its also being developed on the PS3 which is using OpenGL iirc.

 

[wrangler]

crazy times

 

[Modelworks]

Originally posted by: Genx87
A. Doesnt OpenGL under Vista require some emulation layer?
B. If they are developing this for the 360 it can be developed in tandum.

No it is not emulated. It just has a few problems with memory usage because of the driver changes. The next release of OpenGL will not have this problem though. It is not something the OPenGL members have to fix really, it is the driver developers, but the next release will make it easier for them to do that.

 

[Modelworks]

Originally posted by: hooflung
Its also being developed on the PS3 which is using OpenGL iirc.

It really does not make sense for Id to make it Dx9 render only. That would mean developing a renderer for Dx9 just for pc . They could re-use the code from the 360, but there are enough differences there to make it extra work. Where as the OpenGL renderer can be done one time and used on PC, MAC, PS3 with each platforms drivers responsible for the quirks of each system.

 

[Drift3r]

Originally posted by: Sureshot324
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If true this looks like the final nail in the coffin for OpenGL gaming. I've very interested in hearing Carmak's explanation for this.

Wait because they develop one title using DX9 that means they have suddenly dropped OpenGL altogether? LoL - What a nice leap by the author. Seeing as they have already developed their Id Tech 5 engine using OpenGL and used some of it's features in Quake Wars I doubt they would just dump it for no good reason. Also if they were really going to be using DirectX exclusively you'd think they would jump on the DX10 bandwagon instead of relegating themselves to Dx9.

PS - NVM....Seeing as DX9 is more then just graphics I see why they choose to just use DX9. The Id Tech 5 engine is an OpenGL based engine and that is known for sure. I think they need DX9 for the input and audio portions of their game. Thus making the game a "DX9" title when it comes to features outside of their Id Tech 5 engine. They don't need DX10 because they aren't basing their graphic features off DirectX. They only need DX9 for the stuff that is not graphic based and the graphics itself will be rendered by their own OpenGL engine known as Id Tech 5 for this game. This confusion is just based off the author's use of semantics when it comes what is considered to be a "DX" title.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Id_Tech_5#Features

 

[HOOfan 1]

I believe Carmack has openly said he dislikes DX10

 

[BassBomb]

what was the last ogl game? Q ET?

 

[Drift3r]

Originally posted by: BassBomb
what was the last ogl game? Q ET?

Their last game period was ET: QW. Parts of the Id Tech 5 graphics engine were used in that game.

 

[PingSpike]

Originally posted by: Drift3r

Originally posted by: Sureshot324
Scroll to the bottom

If true this looks like the final nail in the coffin for OpenGL gaming. I've very interested in hearing Carmak's explanation for this.

Wait because they develop one title using DX9 that means they have suddenly dropped OpenGL altogether? LoL - What a nice leap by the author. Seeing as they have already developed their Id Tech 5 engine using OpenGL and used some of it's features in Quake Wars I doubt they would just dump it for no good reason. Also if they were really going to be using DirectX exclusively you'd think they would jump on the DX10 bandwagon instead of relegating themselves to Dx9.

PS - NVM....Seeing as DX9 is more then just graphics I see why they choose to just use DX9. The Id Tech 5 engine is an OpenGL based engine and that is known for sure. I think they need DX9 for the input and audio portions of their game. Thus making the game a "DX9" title when it comes to features outside of their Id Tech 5 engine. They don't need DX10 because they aren't basing their graphic features off DirectX. They only need DX9 for the stuff that is not graphic based and the graphics themselves will be rendered by their own OpenGL engine known as Id Tech 5 for this game. This confusion is just based off the author's use of semantics when it comes what is considered to be a "DX" title.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Id_Tech_5#Features

That would make more sense. Id has continued to use OpenGL while most other developers have abandoned it. Now seems like an extremely foolish time to change, as OpenGL allows them to use one renderer for Windows XP and Vista while still taking advantage of new "dx10" graphics card features for both operating systems. Other developers are faced with the task of making a direct 3d 9 render (with less features) and a direct 3d 10 renderer, or starting over with OpenGL when they probably have little in house talent for it.

I've read that the other features of directx are pretty trivial to replace with different solutions for different platforms.

This is a layman's perspective, but it seems like having an OpenGL engine right now is a big boon as far as avoiding duplication of work for different platforms. Only the xbox360 uses something other then OpenGL right?

 

[Modelworks]

Originally posted by: PingSpike


I've read that the other features of directx are pretty trivial to replace with different solutions for different platforms.

This is a layman's perspective, but it seems like having an OpenGL engine right now is a big boon as far as avoiding duplication of work for different platforms. Only the xbox360 uses something other then OpenGL right?

Everything you said was pretty much spot on.
OpenGL is so much more developer friendly when doing multiple platforms. The next revision is due very soon and when it is released it will compete head on with DX10.

Replacing the other parts of DirectX is really easy and often preferred. There are better solutions out there now for things like supporting multiplayer and sound.

I have been working with the free engine OGRE , that is OpenGL and it is very powerful. The ease of using it on win/mac/linux is a huge bonus.


People should read:
http://www.opengl.org/

See some of the new things OpenGL can do.

 

[Kromis]

That's bullshit

 

[Sylvanas]

Originally posted by: PingSpike

Originally posted by: Drift3r

Originally posted by: Sureshot324
Scroll to the bottom

If true this looks like the final nail in the coffin for OpenGL gaming. I've very interested in hearing Carmak's explanation for this.

Wait because they develop one title using DX9 that means they have suddenly dropped OpenGL altogether? LoL - What a nice leap by the author. Seeing as they have already developed their Id Tech 5 engine using OpenGL and used some of it's features in Quake Wars I doubt they would just dump it for no good reason. Also if they were really going to be using DirectX exclusively you'd think they would jump on the DX10 bandwagon instead of relegating themselves to Dx9.

PS - NVM....Seeing as DX9 is more then just graphics I see why they choose to just use DX9. The Id Tech 5 engine is an OpenGL based engine and that is known for sure. I think they need DX9 for the input and audio portions of their game. Thus making the game a "DX9" title when it comes to features outside of their Id Tech 5 engine. They don't need DX10 because they aren't basing their graphic features off DirectX. They only need DX9 for the stuff that is not graphic based and the graphics themselves will be rendered by their own OpenGL engine known as Id Tech 5 for this game. This confusion is just based off the author's use of semantics when it comes what is considered to be a "DX" title.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Id_Tech_5#Features

That would make more sense. Id has continued to use OpenGL while most other developers have abandoned it. Now seems like an extremely foolish time to change, as OpenGL allows them to use one renderer for Windows XP and Vista while still taking advantage of new "dx10" graphics card features for both operating systems. Other developers are faced with the task of making a direct 3d 9 render (with less features) and a direct 3d 10 renderer, or starting over with OpenGL when they probably have little in house talent for it.

I've read that the other features of directx are pretty trivial to replace with different solutions for different platforms.

This is a layman's perspective, but it seems like having an OpenGL engine right now is a big boon as far as avoiding duplication of work for different platforms. Only the xbox360 uses something other then OpenGL right?

You make a good point, it makes near perfect sense to stick with OpenGL for all platforms, cutting development time and costs and working with a 'universal' framework for the most part- cannot see why Id did this.

I would love to see more developers using OpenGL, especially for some Linux support .

 

[Renob]

parts of the Id Tech 5 graphics engine were used in that game.

How do you only use "parts" on an engine?

 

[Bateluer]

Originally posted by: Renob

parts of the Id Tech 5 graphics engine were used in that game.

How do you only use "parts" on an engine?

Because you modify the existing engine so heavily that the bulk of it isn't the original any more. Same way Half Life 1 used the Quake 2 engine, but by the time of its release there was barely any ID code left.

 

[Sureshot324]

Originally posted by: Bateluer

Originally posted by: Renob

parts of the Id Tech 5 graphics engine were used in that game.

How do you only use "parts" on an engine?

Because you modify the existing engine so heavily that the bulk of it isn't the original any more. Same way Half Life 1 used the Quake 2 engine, but by the time of its release there was barely any ID code left.

Half Life actually used the Quake 1 engine, but by the time it was done they incorporated a lot of the tech from the Quake 2 engine. Half Life was release only a year after Quake 2 so development started looooooongg before Quake 2 was ever released.

 

[bullbert]

It is because M$ has paid/bribed them to use DX. A big chunk of $ early in the development phase can sway most developers. Only those stout of heart (or strong in morals) can resist the easy money, even though it is more costly in the long run.

 

[Sureshot324]

Originally posted by: bullbert
It is because M$ has paid/bribed them to use DX. A big chunk of $ early in the development phase can sway most developers. Only those stout of heart (or strong in morals) can resist the easy money, even though it is more costly in the long run.

I always thought Carmak and co. fell into that category. I think it has more to do with the lacking support for OpenGL from the industry in general, particularly ATI/Nvidia.

 

[Schadenfroh]

Originally posted by: Renob
How do you only use "parts" on an engine?

You can also use "parts" of DirectX. For example, you can use OpenGL instead of Direct3D for 3D and then use DirectX 9 for networking, sound, etc. Ever notice that Doom3 required a certain version of DirectX to be installed on Windows despite it being an OpenGL game? Sorta like what ID is doing with Rage / ID Tech 5... OpenGL for graphics, DirectX 9 for other things.

Carmack Interview 07/15/08

MPC: So, you said Rage is a 60Hz game. Is it an OpenGL or DirectX game?

JC: It?s still OpenGL

 

[Sureshot324]

Originally posted by: Schadenfroh

Originally posted by: Renob
How do you only use "parts" on an engine?

You can also use "parts" of DirectX. For example, you can use OpenGL instead of Direct3D for 3D and then use DirectX 9 for networking, sound, etc. Ever notice that Doom3 required a certain version of DirectX to be installed on Windows despite it being an OpenGL game? Sorta like what ID is doing with Rage / ID Tech 5... OpenGL for graphics, DirectX 9 for other things.

Carmack Interview 07/15/08

MPC: So, you said Rage is a 60Hz game. Is it an OpenGL or DirectX game?

JC: It?s still OpenGL

Yes I guess it was misinterpreted when Carmack said he was using DX9 instead of DX10. Anyway good to see opengl on the PC live on!

 

[slugg]

A point that needs to be made clear is that OpenGL is _NOT_ the equivalent to DirectX. In fact, OpenGL is the equivalent to Direct3D, which is a single component of DirectX. This is where the confusion comes from. Using any other components in a game, such as DirectInput and DirectSound, still makes it a DirectX game.

I'm guessing they'll go with OpenAL for sound, then use a platform-specific API for input (DirectInput?).

 

[BFG10K]

Schadenfroh's quote nailed it: there's absolutely no way Carmack would make a D3D renderer for the PC and only for Rage while the rest of the platforms and his games use OpenGL. It's a total waste of time.

The game's renderer will be OpenGL.

 

[imported_protoz]

Is Rage a Games for Windows title? If so I think it's a requirement to use DirectX so you can unify everything.

It is a shame they went with DirectX for Windows because Rage looks like it would be a great title to show off the power of OpenGL and get more developers to use it again. Especially with OpenGL 3 coming soon.