ICE, ICE Baby!

Perknose

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I recommend you that you take some time out of your busy and important day to listen to ICE Capades on This American Life. The entire hour long program is fascinating, nuanced and informative (per usual) but I especially liked the part, starting about 35:50 in, about an ICE investigator who's like internal affairs in a police department, and goes after miscreant and illegally abusive ICE employees.

As always, the reality of any situation is far more complex than the headlines. This is the story of a genuine good guy who works in an agency many of us currently loathe. I found it well worth my time to listen. Perhaps you're too busy and important to do so? Tant pis! ;)
 

Blackjack200

Lifer
May 28, 2007
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I just finished reading the transcript, and I have a lot of thoughts, but first and foremost, where in the world did you get this from?

about an ICE investigator who's like internal affairs in a police department, and goes after miscreant and illegally abusive ICE employees.

I didn't see anything in the article that referred to internal investigations, and their description of Robert Rice's usual work was this:

Miki Meek
Agent Rice told me he agreed to the meeting with the lowest possible expectations. Normally, he did a lot of financial crimes and identity fraud, complex schemes where people were forging documents and lying to the government. He had never done a case like this, and when he strolled in, he didn't actually expect to find people there.
 

Perknose

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I just finished reading the transcript, and I have a lot of thoughts, but first and foremost, where in the world did you get this from?



I didn't see anything in the article that referred to internal investigations, and their description of Robert Rice's usual work was this:

Miki Meek
Agent Rice told me he agreed to the meeting with the lowest possible expectations. Normally, he did a lot of financial crimes and identity fraud, complex schemes where people were forging documents and lying to the government. He had never done a case like this, and when he strolled in, he didn't actually expect to find people there.
1. He started an investigation on someone who was posing as an ICE agent. This was begun as an internal investigation. It turned out the person was only impersonating an ICE agent, but ICE agent Robert Rice went to bat for illegal aliens without turning them in for any punishment. You really left out a lot. Was that on purpose?

Here, I'll help you out with that . . . lapse:

"Agent Rice and his team went in for the arrest. Rice says if she was surprised, she didn't show it.

[...]

In total, 57 people, almost all undocumented or with temporary status, agreed to have their names listed as victims for the government. I wasn't allowed to record in the courthouse, but I was there for this, and the scene was powerful. Families streamed in dressed up in pressed white shirts, slacks and skirts, carrying with them statements that they'd prepared in advance. Teenagers came to speak on behalf of their parents in English.

[...]

The judge sentenced Patria to six and a half years. The daughters were later sentenced to almost three years. Brigido and Walter wished they'd all gotten more.

I asked the brothers and Nubi, if Patria's crime had happened to them today, would they still work with ICE. They said they'd think twice about it, but yeah, they'd do it again.

[...]

This is a point top agents in Rice's division, Homeland Security Investigations, is making today, too. Last month, around the same time protests over the Trump administration's zero tolerance policy at the border erupted around the country, the head of 19 different regional offices from HSI sent a letter to Kirstjen Nielsen, the Secretary of Homeland Security. They basically asked for a divorce from ICE. They don't want to be associated with deportations anymore. It's making it too hard for them to do their jobs.

They wrote, quote, "the perception of HSI's investigative independence is unnecessarily impacted by the political nature of ERO's civil immigration enforcement." ERO is enforcement and removal operations. Many jurisdictions continue to refuse to work with HSI because of a perceived linkage to the politics of civil immigration.

When this case ended, everyone had to revert back to their original roles. Rice, after all, was an ICE agent. He says it's not really appropriate for him to socialize with anyone who's undocumented outside of an investigation."

^^^ Does this help your . . . comprehension?
 

Blackjack200

Lifer
May 28, 2007
15,995
1,688
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1. He started an investigation on someone who was posing as an ICE agent. This was begun as an internal investigation. It turned out the person was only impersonating an ICE agent, but ICE agent Robert Rice went to bat for illegal aliens without turning them in for any punishment. You really left out a lot. Was that on purpose?

To be clear, the part below is what you're claiming constitutes an internal investigation?

Fairly quickly, [Rice] was able to verify that Patria did not work for US Citizenship and Immigration Services, in Miami or anywhere else. She was an imposter. All that paperwork she was supposed to be filing for them, none of it existed in the system. Walter and Brigido were outraged and embarrassed that they'd been tricked so badly.

You're being deliberately obtuse. I thought you had simply erred in you're characterization of Rice and HSI, which is forgivable considering that you had heard the story on the radio. But now you've either doubled down on a mistake or you were deliberately misleading from the start, and that's awful.

Here, I'll help you out with that . . . lapse:

"Agent Rice and his team went in for the arrest. Rice says if she was surprised, she didn't show it.

[...]

In total, 57 people, almost all undocumented or with temporary status, agreed to have their names listed as victims for the government. I wasn't allowed to record in the courthouse, but I was there for this, and the scene was powerful. Families streamed in dressed up in pressed white shirts, slacks and skirts, carrying with them statements that they'd prepared in advance. Teenagers came to speak on behalf of their parents in English.

[...]

The judge sentenced Patria to six and a half years. The daughters were later sentenced to almost three years. Brigido and Walter wished they'd all gotten more.

I asked the brothers and Nubi, if Patria's crime had happened to them today, would they still work with ICE. They said they'd think twice about it, but yeah, they'd do it again.

[...]

This is a point top agents in Rice's division, Homeland Security Investigations, is making today, too. Last month, around the same time protests over the Trump administration's zero tolerance policy at the border erupted around the country, the head of 19 different regional offices from HSI sent a letter to Kirstjen Nielsen, the Secretary of Homeland Security. They basically asked for a divorce from ICE. They don't want to be associated with deportations anymore. It's making it too hard for them to do their jobs.

They wrote, quote, "the perception of HSI's investigative independence is unnecessarily impacted by the political nature of ERO's civil immigration enforcement." ERO is enforcement and removal operations. Many jurisdictions continue to refuse to work with HSI because of a perceived linkage to the politics of civil immigration.

When this case ended, everyone had to revert back to their original roles. Rice, after all, was an ICE agent. He says it's not really appropriate for him to socialize with anyone who's undocumented outside of an investigation."

^^^ Does this help your . . . comprehension?

No, because none of that describes an internal investigation, or suggests that the role of HSI is to investigate internal wrongdoing. In fact, that HSI is asking to be separated from ERO makes little sense if part of HSI's role is to investigate ICE abuses.
 

Perknose

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You can spin this any way you wish, but he was called in to investigate a possible rogue ICE agent.

You misstated that I said this was an internal investigation when you said:

To be clear, the part below is what you're claiming constitutes an internal investigation?

THIS BELOW is what I actually said:

...an ICE investigator who's like internal affairs in a police department, and goes after miscreant and illegally abusive ICE employees.

and:

He started an investigation on someone who was posing as an ICE agent. This was begun as an internal investigation.

You were WRONG to begin with, and now, in your last post, you continue to be WRONG.

Who's being "deliberately obtuse" now?

Care to admit you were wrong? Or are you going to try and triple down?
 

Blackjack200

Lifer
May 28, 2007
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You can spin this any way you wish, but he was called in to investigate a possible rogue ICE agent.

You misstated that I said this was an internal investigation when you said:

You deny saying things that are right here in black and white.

This was begun as an internal investigation.



You were WRONG to begin with, and now, in your last post, you continue to be WRONG.

Who's being "deliberately obtuse" now?

Care to admit you were wrong? Or are you going to try and triple down?

Your desire to lionize Mr. Rice, and apologize for ICE has led you to completely embarrass yourself in this thread. If it's any comfort, I don't think you embarrassed yourself any more than Mr. Glass did in airing this wretched piece. It was designed to appeal to arrogant liberals who think they're evolved beyond making value judgments about the people and institutions that form our government. People that want to sit next to their radios and think that they're smarter, more savvy, more nuanced than the people that are willing to look at the evidence and condemn a ghastly organization like ICE.
 

Perknose

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Yes, exactly, I said IT WAS BEGUN AS AN INTERNAL INVESTIGATION, which it was, which you misstated this way (bolding mine):

To be clear, the part below is what you're claiming constitutes an internal investigation?

Fairly quickly, [Rice] was able to verify that Patria did not work for US Citizenship and Immigration Services, in Miami or anywhere else. She was an imposter. All that paperwork she was supposed to be filing for them, none of it existed in the system. Walter and Brigido were outraged and embarrassed that they'd been tricked so badly.

You're being deliberately obtuse. I thought you had simply erred in you're characterization of Rice and HSI, which is forgivable considering that you had heard the story on the radio. But now you've either doubled down on a mistake or you were deliberately misleading from the start, and that's awful.

YES, what was begun as a complaint against a supposed ICE agent morphed into something else.

Your accusation against me was wrong and continues to be wrong, on the facts.

I'm not "lionizing" Mr. Rice. And I'm not endorsing any part of all the horrible things that Trump has ICE doing. Your angry, knee-jerk reaction, jizzing all over yourself with this extended ad hominem, is just pathetic, and says more about you than you apparently have the maturity to admit:

Your desire to lionize Mr. Rice, and apologize for ICE has led you to completely embarrass yourself in this thread. If it's any comfort, I don't think you embarrassed yourself any more than Mr. Glass did in airing this wretched piece. It was designed to appeal to arrogant liberals who think they're evolved beyond making value judgments about the people and institutions that form our government. People that want to sit next to their radios and think that they're smarter, more savvy, more nuanced than the people that are willing to look at the evidence and condemn a ghastly organization like ICE.

^^^ It's pathetic and juvenile of you. :(
 
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Blackjack200

Lifer
May 28, 2007
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Yes, exactly, I said IT WAS BEGUN AS AN INTERNAL INVESTIGATION, which it was, which you misstated this way (bolding mine):



YES, what was begun as a complaint against a supposed ICE agent morphed into something else.

Your accusation against me was wrong and continues to be wrong, on the facts.

I see your point now. While I think it's a fine point, I will admit that I altered the meaning of your statement. And while I didn't do it intentionally, I take responsibility and apologize sincerely: I'm sorry for misstating what you said.

BUT then, you little shit, you have to jizz all over yourself with an extended ad hominem fantasy about "arrogant liberals" and me "loinizing" an Ice Agent.

You are a sad little piece of offal, asshole, who doesn't have the personal integrity to admit YOU WERE WRONG IN YOUR ATTACK.

For what its worth, I think you should take some responsibility too. In my view "an ICE investigator who's like internal affairs in a police department, and goes after miscreant and illegally abusive ICE employees." is a gross misrepresentation of Mr. Rice's role as he didn't go after anyone until he had established that the perpetrator was not actually in the department.

You could infer that Mr. Rice theoretically has that job, since the immigration lawyer referred the case to him at a time when they believed the perpetrator was a government agent. But we absolutely cannot say how Mr. Rice would have proceeded if it was indeed an internal situation. Your characterization is completely baseless.

This story was about the investigation and subsequent arrest of an outside party perpetrating a fraud, if internal investigations are the important part of Mr. Rice job, why not tell a story about him busting a 'miscreant and illegally abusive ICE employee'?

I think the answer to that is pretty obvious.
 

Perknose

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I see your point now. While I think it's a fine point, I will admit that I altered the meaning of your statement. And while I didn't do it intentionally, I take responsibility and apologize sincerely: I'm sorry for misstating what you said.

Thanks, appreciated.

You could infer that Mr. Rice theoretically has that job, since the immigration lawyer referred the case to him at a time when they believed the perpetrator was a government agent. But we absolutely cannot say how Mr. Rice would have proceeded if it was indeed an internal situation. Your characterization is completely baseless.
My characterization is not "completely baseless." It is his job to investigate ICE wrongdoing, which is how he initially approached it. If

This story was about the investigation and subsequent arrest of an outside party perpetrating a fraud, if internal investigations are the important part of Mr. Rice job, why not tell a story about him busting a 'miscreant and illegally abusive ICE employee'?

What was compelling to me about this story was that he relied on the testimony of illegal aliens while promising them (a promise he kept) not to pursue them at all, but rather protect them. I found this unusual and heartening.