IBM and The Third Reich

chess9

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Apr 15, 2000
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Apparently, Black's book documents the help our own "Dr. Watson" gave to the Third Reich to help them track Jews and get their names. I'm thinking about getting this book on Audible.

Has anyone here read it yet?

Thanks,
-Robert
 

0roo0roo

No Lifer
Sep 21, 2002
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its been out for a while now. rather thick, i haven't made it through it yet:p hah, all i remember is that ibm built census counting machines.....
 

chess9

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Apr 15, 2000
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Ah, the mercenary joys of capitalism!

Well, I've downloaded it. I'll listen to it and come back with the Cliff Notes version. :)

-Robert
 

GoPackGo

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 2003
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The european plants that made this equipement had supposedly been taken over by the Nazis...from what I heard IBM was put in a rather precoscious position.
 

klah

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Aug 13, 2002
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You should also read Henry Ford's 1921 book "The International Jew" and Baldwin's recent "Henry Ford and the Jews".

Hitler granted Ford the highest award possible for a non-German, the Grand Cross of the German Eagle.
 

Zebo

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Everyone makes mistakes look at bush...and his grandfather.
 

chess9

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klah:

"Ford was also active in Nazi Germany's prewar preparations. In 1938, for instance, it opened a truck assembly plant in Berlin whose "real purpose," according to U.S. Army Intelligence, was producing "troop transport-type" vehicles for the Wehrmacht. That year Ford's chief executive received the Nazi German Eagle (first class)....

The outbreak of war in September 1939 resulted inevitably in the full conversion by GM and Ford of their Axis plants to the production of military aircraft and trucks....On the ground, GM and Ford subsidiaries built nearly 90 percent of the armored "mule" 3- ton half-trucks and more than 70 percent of the Reich's medium and heavy-duty trucks. These vehicles, according to American intelligence reports, served as "the backbone of the German Army transportation system."....

After the cessation of hostilities, GM and Ford demanded reparations from the U.S. Government for wartime damages sustained by their Axis facilities as a result of Allied bombing...Ford received a little less than $1 million, primarily as a result of damages sustained by its military truck complex at Cologne...

Due to their multinational dominance of motor vehicle production, GM and Ford became principal suppliers for the forces of fascism as well as for the forces of democracy. It may, of course, be argued that participating in both sides of an international conflict, like the common corporate practice of investing in both political parties before an election, is an appropriate corporate activity. Had the Nazis won, General Motors and Ford would have appeared impeccably Nazi; as Hitler lost, these companies were able to reemerge impeccably American. In either case, the viability of these corporations and the interests of their respective stockholders would have been preserved."

A lot of American corporations participated, I'm sure. Did any Jews get reparations from these companies? No, but Ford gets reparations. This little detail says more than I would wish to know about America....

-Robert
 

burnedout

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Oct 12, 1999
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Originally posted by: chess9

[...]

A lot of American corporations participated, I'm sure. Did any Jews get reparations from these companies? No, but Ford gets reparations. This little detail says more than I would wish to know about America....

-Robert
Meanwhile,

Ford Issues Report on Ford-Werke Under The Nazi Regime

Ford denies profiting from Nazi regime

But Professor Simon Reich of Pittsburgh University has concluded that the Ford Company in America had lost control of Ford in Germany during the war and so did not profit from its activities.

He said Hitler's admiration of Henry Ford had much to do with his company's production methods.

The Ford Motor Company had already said it would pay $13m into a fund to compensate slave labourers from the Nazi era.

It will now pay another $4m into projects to promote human rights.
 

etech

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
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Originally posted by: chess9
klah:

"Ford was also active in Nazi Germany's prewar preparations. In 1938, for instance, it opened a truck assembly plant in Berlin whose "real purpose," according to U.S. Army Intelligence, was producing "troop transport-type" vehicles for the Wehrmacht. That year Ford's chief executive received the Nazi German Eagle (first class)....

The outbreak of war in September 1939 resulted inevitably in the full conversion by GM and Ford of their Axis plants to the production of military aircraft and trucks....On the ground, GM and Ford subsidiaries built nearly 90 percent of the armored "mule" 3- ton half-trucks and more than 70 percent of the Reich's medium and heavy-duty trucks. These vehicles, according to American intelligence reports, served as "the backbone of the German Army transportation system."....

After the cessation of hostilities, GM and Ford demanded reparations from the U.S. Government for wartime damages sustained by their Axis facilities as a result of Allied bombing...Ford received a little less than $1 million, primarily as a result of damages sustained by its military truck complex at Cologne...

Due to their multinational dominance of motor vehicle production, GM and Ford became principal suppliers for the forces of fascism as well as for the forces of democracy. It may, of course, be argued that participating in both sides of an international conflict, like the common corporate practice of investing in both political parties before an election, is an appropriate corporate activity. Had the Nazis won, General Motors and Ford would have appeared impeccably Nazi; as Hitler lost, these companies were able to reemerge impeccably American. In either case, the viability of these corporations and the interests of their respective stockholders would have been preserved."

A lot of American corporations participated, I'm sure. Did any Jews get reparations from these companies? No, but Ford gets reparations. This little detail says more than I would wish to know about America....

-Robert


Robert,

What are your thoughts on Sweden?
 

chess9

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Apr 15, 2000
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Burnedout:

Of course, Ford got reparations right after the war. The few remaining slave labourers received pittances many years later.

Also, it is a common misperception that all the slave labourers were Jews. A lot of gypsies and foreigners and criminals worked as slave labourers.

I don't think it is surprising that Ford didn't profit from their German plants during the war inasmuch as we were fighting the Germans. Just what was Ford doing for about 6 years prior to the war when it was patently obvious the Germans were building a war machine and were restricting the rights of Jews? Since Henry Ford was an anti-semite, we can assume that he was pleased with Hitler's viscious treatment of Jews.

Etech:

Are you referring to Volvo? They still make lousy cars. :) Don't you listen to Car Talk?

-Robert
 

burnedout

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Oct 12, 1999
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Robert:

Were you aware that Ford-Werke paid for the "slave labor" during the war? Yep, between RM 0.2 and RM 1.7 per hour. There were a couple of camps adjacent to the Köln facility housing the workers with conditions much better than the concentration camps. The labor provided by the "forced laborers" from the Buchenwald camp was also reimbursed to the then-German government by the autonomous Ford-Werke at a rate of RM 4 to RM 6 per day. No more than 65 laborers were used.

There's much more to this story than you want to believe. I'm currently at work and my notes concerning the entire matter are at home, so the specifics must wait until this evening. Anyway, around 1998 or so, pressure and public scrutiny on corporations party to the conflict increased because of shortfalls in the compensation fund.

Black's book has a number of holes contained therein as well. Again, please wait until this evening for my notes.
 

chess9

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Apr 15, 2000
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Burnedout:

Ok.

I actually read extensively on this topic about 45 years ago when I was a teenager. I was in the library one day and saw a book on the atrocities of WWII and was both horrified and riveted. I spent the next month in the library reading about the Nazi atrocities and the atrocities Japan committed, particularly in Korea and China. Young folks today just don't give WWII the time they should. My daughter has read 4 books on the Holocaust, but she still knows very little about the war and she's 16. I guess it's ANCIENT history to them. Too bad....

Anyway, I'll try to keep my prejudices out of the way. :)

-Robert
 

Genesys

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Nov 10, 2003
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also, read "On their Jews and their Lies" by Martin Luther.

hatred of the jews has been around for a long time....
 

chess9

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Apr 15, 2000
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Genesys:

Is that "LIES" or "LIVES"? :)

If the former, I'll pass.

Although, I think a good, historical exegesis of anti-semitism must have been already published. That might be an interesting read. It would have to be a least a 10 volume set of course. :(

Anyone know of one?

-Robert
 

DAPUNISHER

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Originally posted by: GoPackGo
The european plants that made this equipement had supposedly been taken over by the Nazis...from what I heard IBM was put in a rather precoscious position.
The word you were looking for was precarious sir :)



Ah, the mercenary joys of capitalism!
Truly :(
 

Zebo

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Jul 29, 2001
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Originally posted by: chrisms
I guess all those rednecks with all-American Ford trucks will think twice now,

I like my f350 cause it gets 22mpg empty, can haul all our toys going 65MPH up Cuesta Grade in Ca.

Ford's dead and the company today employees AMERICANS who spend thier good paying money here and pay taxes here. They have the ford foundation which gives Billions every year to charitable causes. If you think every japanese or german automaker was'nt an ACTIVE participant in genocide either of the jews or chineese or koreans your out to lunch.
 

etech

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
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Originally posted by: chess9
Burnedout:

Of course, Ford got reparations right after the war. The few remaining slave labourers received pittances many years later.

Also, it is a common misperception that all the slave labourers were Jews. A lot of gypsies and foreigners and criminals worked as slave labourers.

I don't think it is surprising that Ford didn't profit from their German plants during the war inasmuch as we were fighting the Germans. Just what was Ford doing for about 6 years prior to the war when it was patently obvious the Germans were building a war machine and were restricting the rights of Jews? Since Henry Ford was an anti-semite, we can assume that he was pleased with Hitler's viscious treatment of Jews.

Etech:

Are you referring to Volvo? They still make lousy cars. :) Don't you listen to Car Talk?

-Robert

No, I wasn't referring to Volvo. Apparently you don't know WWII history and I don't feel like teaching it to you tonight. Let it suffice to say that for a neutral country, Sweden has the blood of many on their hannds and refused to acknowledge it for many many years.
 

burnedout

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Oct 12, 1999
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OK, from my notes, more about the Ford-Werke before, during and after WWII.

- Communication between Ford in Dearborn and Ford-Werke ceased by November, 1941. In May, 1942, the Reich Commissioner for the Treatment of Enemy Property assumed custodianship of Ford-Werke.

- Researchers have classifed the labor employed by Ford-Werke into three groups: civilians, forced labor and slave labor. Usage of slave labor began at the plant in 1944. The best available evidence suggests that a maximum of 65 slave laborers were used at the Köln facility over time.
Albert Speer of the Armaments Ministry intiated the idea to eventually employ slave labor from concentration camps because companies indicated that increased production couldn't be met without additional labor. POWs and forced laborers from Eastern Europe, Soviet Union, France and Italy were primarily used to a much greater extent than slave laborers. Addtionally, POWs and forced laborers initially received much less in wages and were taxed comparatively more than Western civilian workers at the plant. Further into the war, the pay of forced workers increased to nearly the same rate of civilian workers. As stated earlier, Ford-Werke compensated the SS between RM 4-6/day for slave labor.

- According to financial records analyzed by Pricewaterhouse-Coopers in 2000, while Ford-Werke earned modest profits early in the war, enormous losses occured between 1944-45 that wiped out the earlier gains.

- There exists enough evidence to suggest management and standarization conflicts inhibited the political influence of Ford-Werke on the Nazi government. Carl Bosch (general manager of IG Farben) and Heinrich Albert, a long-time lawyer for Ford's German affairs, along with Alwin Schurig, were chosen for the undertaking's board of directors. Edmund Heine, a German-born naturized American was initially appointed manager of the Köln operations. Within three years after Heine's appointment, German authorities made it very clear to the German board of directors that Heine was unacceptable.

Ford-Werke also experienced considerable issues with the rising German nationalism of the period. Erich Diestel, a lawyer and former manager of the Berlin Electric Works succeeded Heine in 1934. Diestel was regarded by many Nazis and even various Ford dealers in Germany as a "Jew". Albert wrote Dearborn that "the Jewish question" could materialize into real sales resistance. According to company correspondance, Charles Sorensen, a Ford exec, intended on keeping Diestel in his position. However, because of performance shortfalls, Edsel Ford, Sorensen and Lord Percival Perry of Ford/UK decided in 1938 to let Diestel go after four years on the job. Diestel resigned and received a severance package.

- Allied bombing missions specifically targeted the Köln plant on at least four occasions during the war. Ford-Werke received RM 362,000 from the Third Reich in 1942 as bomb damage compensation. Damages during this first raid included vehicles, parts, material and buildings outside the main plant. Some damage resulted from German AA fire shrapnel.

Later in 1942, the Third Reich prohibited war damage claims by companies with 25 percent or greater foreign ownership. Therefore, Ford-Werke found itself entering into an agreement in which the German subsidiary offered its property as collateral in the form of a mortgage in order to offset further war damage.

On three other occasions (August 19, October 2 and 18, 1944), the plant was again targeted by strategic bombing. Finally, during the U.S. Army's advance through the area in March, 1945, the facility was again hit; this time by artillery fire. Still, despite all of the fighting and superficial damage, the plant was termed as structurally sound - in "excellent condition" by representatives of the U.S. military government on March 11, 1945.

Ford filed a number of claims with the U.S. and British military governments after the war. In 1959, the Foreign Claims Settlement Commission awarded Ford $377K for damages to Ford of Hungary and $370K for losses to Ford of Romania. It isn't clear whether or not the award for the Romanian operation was even paid by the U.S.

On April 5, 1967, the same commission awarded Ford $785K for losses to Ford-Werke and Ford of Austria. At the time of that particular award, enough money existed in the fund to permit distributions equaling roughly 80-90 percent of the awarded payout. To this day, there is no confirmation indicating when or how much of this award was received by Ford Motor Company from the U.S government.

- We should also remember that Ford had numerous subsidiaries operating throughout Europe. Documents reveal an organizational structure in which the parent company had to accomodate itself to local and sometimes hostile conditions. The relationship of parent and local companies was further complicated by the parent company's relationships with other production facilites operating in neighboring and often competing countries within the same regional market.

You might also take into consideration the following: A study based on records in the National Archives indicates more than 250 American subsidiaries with investments valued at over $450 million conducted business in Nazi Germany in 1943. The present-day parent companies of the subsidiaries includes ITT, Coca-Cola, Woolworth, Quaker Oats, Otis Elevator, Kraft Cheese, American Express, Steinway and Sons, Libby's, NCR, Gillette, Eastman Kodak, Singer and Standard Oil.

In conclusion, the issues involving Ford, slave labor and compensation are far more complex than the media and various biased books suggest.

I have additional information concerning GM and IBM. Admittedly, this information is neither as comprehensive nor favorable as that which can be presented on Ford's behalf. Perhaps next Sunday, I'll post more.
 

Gaard

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Feb 17, 2002
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Originally posted by: etech
...and refused to acknowledge it for many many years.

I was going to make a derogatory remark on the irony of you making this kind of statement, but i've been told I must have a stick up my ass so I won't.
 

etech

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
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Are you saying that Sweden did not commit many questionable acts during WWII or are you questioning that it took Sweden many years to acknowledge those acts?

Or are you just trying to make one of your infantile off-topic ad-homme points that delight you so much?
 

Klixxer

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Apr 7, 2004
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etech, Sweden did what the US did most of the WWII, they looked the other way, remember president Roosevelts words "we will not get involved in europas war"?

Not when Poland was invaded, not when France fell, Denmark, Norway fell too, Sweden was neutral and let them pass, the US looked the other way until they were attacked themselves, if they hadn't been, i doubt they would ever have gotten involved at all.
 

etech

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
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Originally posted by: Klixxer
etech, Sweden did what the US did most of the WWII, they looked the other way, remember president Roosevelts words "we will not get involved in europas war"?

Not when Poland was invaded, not when France fell, Denmark, Norway fell too, Sweden was neutral and let them pass, the US looked the other way until they were attacked themselves, if they hadn't been, i doubt they would ever have gotten involved at all.


Are you saying that all Sweden did was "look the other way"?

Are you sure?
 

Klixxer

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Apr 7, 2004
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Originally posted by: etech
Originally posted by: Klixxer
etech, Sweden did what the US did most of the WWII, they looked the other way, remember president Roosevelts words "we will not get involved in europas war"?

Not when Poland was invaded, not when France fell, Denmark, Norway fell too, Sweden was neutral and let them pass, the US looked the other way until they were attacked themselves, if they hadn't been, i doubt they would ever have gotten involved at all.


Are you saying that all Sweden did was "look the other way"?

Are you sure?

No i am not, are you saying i am wrong?