Discussion i7-11700K preliminary results

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Timorous

Golden Member
Oct 27, 2008
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Mind Factory stopped sales many days ago so what exactly is the purpose of posting reviews of a product that's under general NDA? I believe there's a two week gap, iirc, between reviews and when the chips go on sale. That's a long period for a potential customer to gather all the information they need before plunging in.

They sold over 200 units last I checked so it is not like it was a handful.

You seem hurt that Intel have under delivered. Maybe that is the problem you have with this review.
 

Zucker2k

Golden Member
Feb 15, 2006
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They sold over 200 units last I checked so it is not like it was a handful.

You seem hurt that Intel have under delivered. Maybe that is the problem you have with this review.
No! I'll call it as it is once official reviews, sanctioned by Intel, are released. Intel can't walk away, deny, or reject those numbers because they'd have followed Intel's own guidelines, and in some cases support in resolving issues when and if they occur. This "review" lacks that. Intel basically rejected whatever these results are with their silence, and rightly so. What did they expect? That Intel plays along to undercut other reviewers by publishing results about a product they had already signed an NDA for? That's just covering their bases, if you ask me, because there's no way Intel is going to give AT any kind of support to break the silence on a product that isn't ready to be reviewed for another 3 weeks.
 
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Kocicak

Senior member
Jan 17, 2019
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Timorous: sold does not mean shipped out to customer. They could have shipped just a dozen or two of those, before they they realised that they did a mistake.

Zucker2k: your whole post is emotionally charged. Why is it so?
 

Zucker2k

Golden Member
Feb 15, 2006
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Timorous: sold does not mean shipped out to customer. They could have shipped just a dozen or two of those, before they they realised that they did a mistake.

Zucker2k: your whole post is emotionally charged. Why is it so?
Au contraire. Just trying to drive home my points. That's all.
 

Timorous

Golden Member
Oct 27, 2008
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and in some cases support in resolving issues when and if they occur.

That is what post purchase support is for. Just because Ian got the product early does not mean his consumer rights are null and void. It was a legal (customer - retailer) transaction.

Intel basically rejected whatever these results are with their silence, and rightly so.

Silence means nothing. It is not agreement or disagreement, that you read it as rejecting the results is on you and is not an objective fact.

there's no way Intel is going to give AT any kind of support

Intel would kind of have to if the supplier Ian got it from could not help with an issue because Ian is a paying, retail, customer and the product is under warranty.

EDIT:

No! I'll call it as it is once official reviews, sanctioned by Intel, are released.

If you want Intel sanctioned results just read the marketing slides.
 

majord

Senior member
Jul 26, 2015
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I just feel this is an indicator of the sort of shallow / clinical relationship Anandtech has with Intel, and possibly the others vendors these days. This is not some random back of the net tech site posting something up early. It's Anandtech. signing the NDA should just be a formality for a site of this nature.. Vendors should almost be able to not even bother with it, and assume they'll respect the Embargo.,

Anand had a way of calling a spade a spade, publishing unsanctioned previews, just generally doing things his way (no doubt at the frustration of certain vendors at times) , but all the while still managed to hold a solid relationship with them. They respected, and were incredibly open with him regardless. Took a certain level of tact to pull that off. And he did it effortlessly. The SB previewing being an example of that.

This RL review just is not IMO, ditto Intel's lack of Comment.

I don't think there's anything as Dramatic as what Zucker is going on about however.. I wouldn't read that much into the lack of comment. And 'Sanctioned reviews' .. Err no. They can stick them.
 
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DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
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Leaving aside the issues of whether a new bios will improve performance or not, why does performance on Cinebench improve so much more than most other applications?

Does this now make Cinebench a poor benchmark?

Well in the case of R20 and R23, Embree/AVX512 maybe?

As far as what Ian did: frankly I'm a little surprised people are so hung up on Intel's NDAs and whether or not a review is "sanctioned". More sites should have tried to get these chips early and done proper (p)reviews of them just like Anandtech did. Those sites criticizing them come across as cowards who have forgotten why they exist in the first place.

Intel had every opportunity to say "don't do this" and they remained silent. Had they said that, we probably would never have known.
 

Kocicak

Senior member
Jan 17, 2019
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Intel had every opportunity to say "don't do this" and they remained silent.
I believe it went this way:

"We have this review coming, do you want to comment on something?"

"Damn. No we do not want comment on anything."

I do not believe Intel was given a chance to stop it.
 

moinmoin

Diamond Member
Jun 1, 2017
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As far as what Ian did: frankly I'm a little surprised people are so hung up on Intel's NDAs and whether or not a review is "sanctioned". More sites should have tried to get these chips early and done proper (p)reviews of them just like Anandtech did. Those sites criticizing them come across as cowards who have forgotten why they exist in the first place.

Intel had every opportunity to say "don't do this" and they remained silent. Had they said that, we probably would never have known.
All of this. Ian could possibly have notified a couple of outlets in addition to Intel, sites like Computerbase could easily have bought the CPU as well considering the store's in the same country. But the hurt response so far is only emotional, not logical. So yes, that makes them look like cowards indeed.
 

Panino Manino

Senior member
Jan 28, 2017
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No NDA broken, but for respect of relationship with Intel, perhaps should have been called a Preview, and perhaps been less detailed.

Keeps referring to Anand's early Sandy bridge "review" to justify why it's all OK, but that wasn't a review, it was clearly titled a 'Preview' , and clearly stated the results were Preliminary, and could or would likely change. Quite different.
For me the crucial part is that Intel didn't care to comment on whether Anandtech could publish their review. If there was indeed a firmware update in the works that could actually alter the results in a significant way, don't you think that Intel would have reached out to Ian and say "don't publish it now, we have a BIOS update in the works and that the performance on current BIOS isn't final/representative of what you'll see on launch day"?

Nothing of that sort happened, which is why the comparison with Sandy Bridge situation is not applicable, in my opinion.

Anand published that as a Preview because being so early the chip was not the final silicon with all planned features enabled (but some unplanned enabled).
 
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coercitiv

Diamond Member
Jan 24, 2014
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I do not believe Intel was given a chance to stop it.
They had the right to comment, which would have been included in the review. Imagine the following reply to your imaginary dialogue:
Your findings are not consistent with final product (firmware) performance.

That would have been a mic drop sentence, putting Anandtech in a vulnerable position. Nu further info, no details, just a public notice that they're doing it wrong. Alas, something stopped Intel reps from doing that (despite the PR cost of having a bad first review), which is telling for the ETA of a performacne enhancing firmware update... if any at all.
 

AdamK47

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
15,223
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He is talking about this: https://www.overclock.net/threads/o...k-results-bins-and-discussion.1777365/page-11
View attachment 40770View attachment 40771
Crappy latency, even with a all new bios he got it from Shamino himself. (Biosdate is from today)


Compared to the latency with hes skylake setup:
View attachment 40772

Rocket Lake will be a bad gaming plattform, really cant understand why Intel marked it as such.. But i guess its no better in productivity with 8 cores VS 16 cores there.
Stable for the 10 seconds it took to do that suicide run vs. a stable system that can run benchmarks continuously.
 

DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
21,632
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I do not believe Intel was given a chance to stop it.

Intel had their shot to try and convince Dr. Cutress that the NDA represented a lasting and meaningful relationship between Intel and Anandtech, and that basically if Anandtech valued review samples from any hardware company (not just Intel) that end-running the NDA by buying a commercially available chip "accidentally" sold pre-NDA from a retail (read: non-QS/ES) stockpile represented a departure from what a "big review site" is meant to do in this day and age. Intel brings a lot of technical support to the table to respected reviewers to try to help them get an optimal review platform up and running for launch-day articles. By just buying a random retail sample, Anandtech forgoes all of that and is stuck reviewing the hardware on its own, which is very late 90s/early aughts. And it's kind of refreshing. Still there's at least the possibility that Intel will be mum on helping AT get their NDA-lift review sorted wrt UEFI/software updates.

You have to think that if Dr. Cutress actually thought Intel would be wounded by his decision to review a leaked retail sample, that he would probably sit on his (p)review of the 11700k. Or he would launch it at the same time as his review of the NDA-addled sample from Intel to do a compare-and-contrast to show what, if anything, Intel had been able to change over the course of a month by way of UEFI updates. Fact is, Intel said . . . nothing. At all.

Meanwhile, sites like Anandtech are (or were) getting scooped by randos on Youtube publishing results from their "accidental" 11700k retail samples. Everyone on the NDA train had to sit idly by and watch themselves look irrelevant in comparison. Who's going to line up for NDA-lift articles when reams of data on these CPUs is already available to the public? Obviously, the touches we expect from seasoned hardware reviewers were missing in favor of just some benchmark scores produced with configurations that may or may not inform us as to exactly how much better (or worse) the 11700k is compared to the 5800x or 10700k . A good review site like Anandtech could get us some juicy commentary as to WHY Rocket Lake-S performed so badly, just from one of those retail samples, even without support from Intel. The opportunity was there. The NDA would not be violated. Intel wasn't lifting a finger to stop anyone from doing so. Most importantly, Anandtech needs those clicks. Intel hasn't exactly been delivering on the hype train lately. Which review articles do you think generated the most ad revenue for Anandtech (or any other ad-driven review site)? Comet Lake? Vermeer? Matisse? The 9900KS?

If or when Rocket Lake proves to be a dud of a product, how many people do you think will slavishly devote hours of their time to going through multiple Rocket Lake articles to learn everything they can about the chip? I'm thinking not very many. Between the 9900KS, Comet Lake, and now Rocket Lake, Intel is giving very little in the way of fresh meat to sites like Anandtech. Just check out the buzz around the Comet Lake launch to see what I mean. Mostly you had a bunch of people arguing over game performance and/or power draw. Now contrast that with the massive Matisse and Vermeer launch thread(s). Hype train central. People were stoked for those chips. People are STILL stoked for Vermeer, as in: when can we buy one? Please sir, I want some more. Insert Oliver Twist reference.

Intel launches aren't really generating a lot of clicks for AT (or other review sites) outside of maybe Tiger Lake, and odds are good that Dr. Cutress could see the same thing happening with Rocket Lake. Launching an early review of these fortuitously leaked retail samples would be the perfect way to scoop the scoopers and drive some badly-wanted/needed site traffic during an otherwise-lukewarm product launch. It's that or wait for Alder Lake and Warhol/Raphael/whatever AMD launches next.
 

Mopetar

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2011
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After what Nvidia tried with HUB and the backlash they received, Intel would be stupid to try pulling any shenanigans. I can already see Linus making an angry rant tearing into Intel for an hour.

I'm still going to be reading reviews when they come out because they're going to contain a lot of additional information beyond just benchmarks. I'm also going to want to see the 11900K results as well. Is there anyone here that feels differently or won't be reading additional reviews?

Any outrage over this is overblown.
 

Hulk

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
4,225
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I'm sure Intel will be updating their NDA for future releases.

I have been a reader here since the beginning and I feel like I have a pretty good overall "feeling" for the relationship among Anandtech and the manufacturers they review. IMO Anandtech has been neutral when reviewing and above all else looks to uncover the true performance and value for products it reviews. The metrics are objective, but the conclusions are subjective by nature.

I will admit I was surprised when I saw the 11700K review posted. I read Ian's explanation and I thought to myself "would Anand have done this?" I can't answer that, only he can. But after thinking about this for a while I have come to the conclusion that Ian did the right thing.

Anandtech is NOT an arm of Intel. It is an independent journalism-based review site. With that in mind it's PRIMARY allegiance should be to the readers. So the questions to be answered with regard to this issue are as follows:

Did Anandtech violate the NDA with Intel? No, they purchased a retail product and did not disclose any NDA information.

Did Anandtech provide a valuable service to it's readers with this information? Yes, more information is always better. There may have been people (like myself) who were on the cusp of ordering to build a Rocket Lake system. This review stopped me in my tracks and now I'm re-evaluating my next build. I may still build Intel but I'm waiting for the official release with this preview/review in mind.

Did Anandtech provide a valuable service to Intel with this information? Probably not considering Intel wanted the release to be March 30. But as I wrote Anandtech's first priority must be to it's journalistic credibility. Journals dig for the truth in any and all legal means and that is what Ian did. Kudos to him and his journalism chops.
 

CHADBOGA

Platinum Member
Mar 31, 2009
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I have been a reader here since the beginning and I feel like I have a pretty good overall "feeling" for the relationship among Anandtech and the manufacturers they review. IMO Anandtech has been neutral when reviewing and above all else looks to uncover the true performance and value for products it reviews. The metrics are objective, but the conclusions are subjective by nature.

I will admit I was surprised when I saw the 11700K review posted. I read Ian's explanation and I thought to myself "would Anand have done this?" I can't answer that, only he can. But after thinking about this for a while I have come to the conclusion that Ian did the right thing.

Anandtech is NOT an arm of Intel. It is an independent journalism-based review site. With that in mind it's PRIMARY allegiance should be to the readers. So the questions to be answered with regard to this issue are as follows:

Did Anandtech violate the NDA with Intel? No, they purchased a retail product and did not disclose any NDA information.

Did Anandtech provide a valuable service to it's readers with this information? Yes, more information is always better. There may have been people (like myself) who were on the cusp of ordering to build a Rocket Lake system. This review stopped me in my tracks and now I'm re-evaluating my next build.

Did Anandtech provide a valuable service to Intel with this information? Probably not considering Intel wanted the release to be March 30. But as I wrote Anandtech's first priority must be to it's journalistic credibility. Journals dig for the truth in any and all legal means and that is what Ian did. Kudos to him and his journalism chops.
You are forgetting about the most important consideration of them all.

Would Francois approve?


 

coercitiv

Diamond Member
Jan 24, 2014
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Stable for the 10 seconds it took to do that suicide run vs. a stable system that can run benchmarks continuously.
Hey, don't be mean... it's single channel, probably stable

Nvm, the Asrock utility is probably reading stuff wrong from the Asus mobo.
 

jpiniero

Lifer
Oct 1, 2010
14,599
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I will admit I was surprised when I saw the 11700K review posted. I read Ian's explanation and I thought to myself "would Anand have done this?" I can't answer that, only he can. But after thinking about this for a while I have come to the conclusion that Ian did the right thing.

Ian mentioned this in his video, Anand published a Sandy Bridge Review (albeit a i5 2400) like 6 months early: https://www.anandtech.com/show/3871/the-sandy-bridge-preview-three-wins-in-a-row

Article is dated August 27, 2010. 2500K/2600K review is dated January 3, 2011.
 

moinmoin

Diamond Member
Jun 1, 2017
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I'm sure Intel will be updating their NDA for future releases.
Such can and will never have any effect on the kind of transaction that happened here. NDAs are contracts that both sides have to agree on. Sign the NDA, get a product before its launch. Now that product was already publicly available for anybody to buy, anybody can buy it and write anything they want about it. So Ian did just that.
 

blckgrffn

Diamond Member
May 1, 2003
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www.teamjuchems.com
I believe it went this way:

"We have this review coming, do you want to comment on something?"

"Damn. No we do not want comment on anything."

I do not believe Intel was given a chance to stop it.

My guess is they had enough time to courier a signature required cease and desist if they thought it was warranted. Even if it was only to the effect that they suspected this was an NDA type issue and tell him to delay publishing it while the article was reviewed by Intel lawyers prior to publishing.

Would that be smart? I am thinking no. Would it have worked? Probably.

Point is there are always options.
 
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Makaveli

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2002
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Panino Manino

Senior member
Jan 28, 2017
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I'm sure Intel will be updating their NDA for future releases.

I'm curious about, what they can do exactly?
Publishing benchmarks will be deemed defamation? Would I be at risk if I published an unfavorable benchmark on the Internet?
This is ridiculous, and Intel has much more important things to be concerned and work right now. The problem isn't any NDA violation, it's the chip they managed to fab and put on the marked and the competition beating it.

You are forgetting about the most important consideration of them all.

Would Francois approve?

I'm disappointed.
Using UB as argument is too low even for him.
 
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