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Discussion i7-11700K preliminary results

lobz

Golden Member
Feb 10, 2017
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(1) Yes, they are one of the only places that publishes sales data.
(2) But, they also have consistently good AMD prices and consistently bad Intel prices over time. Yes, occasional sales in Intel prices are okay. But I'm talking about long term trends.

Those are not mutually exclusive points.

I posted better intel prices in Germany at other German sites a few posts above. I'll use the same sites for AMD chips. Here are current AMD 5800X prices with Mindfactory significantly cheaper:
How about one of Mindfactory's best sellers, the 3600 with Mindfactory significantly cheaper:
Could keep going on and on, day after day, but I doubt people will believe actual links with actual prices here because they often have ulterior motives.
Man, speaking as someone who's actually living in Germany, I have to contradict you again. These prices you wrote change weekly. When I bought my current PC last year, the CFL refresh CPUs were so well priced that I couldn't justify buying AMD, so I ended up with a 9900K. Yet, their published DIY sales data that time was practically the same.
 

dmens

Platinum Member
Mar 18, 2005
2,159
673
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There's an army of die hard AMD fanatics who'll continue to reveal their intellectual maturity by posting the AVX-512 power draw without context. Typically, this crowd has little else to do than haunt tech forums/news sites comments section for hours per day, to defend their favourite company.

Have to remember they're only doing this as they feel threatened in some way, I'm not sure why...

The i9 with release Microcode/UEFI should take the gaming crown back, something I never thought possible while still on 14nm.
You have no idea why microcode patches are deployed. Engineers do not test something different from what they intend to release, as that would defeat the entire point of testing. Patches are applied as bugs are found after general sale, as @scineram pointed out. They almost always result in performance degradation. I have never seen a bug patch improve performance in my career.

As for BIOS itself, just look the timings and clock ratios. Again, all these electrical qualifications are done well ahead of release.

All this crying about BIOS/ucode this late in the game is just pure ignorance and FUD.
 

pj-

Senior member
May 5, 2015
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There are constantly articles about how amd outsells intel and they are all exclusively about mindfactory, so it's pretty fair to say that they are geared towards selling amd.
Isn't that just because they're one of the only places that publishes their sales data?


Look at that, 4/5 top selling CPUs are AMD. Amazon must be GEARED towards selling AMD
 

pj-

Senior member
May 5, 2015
418
161
116
(1) Yes, they are one of the only places that publishes sales data.
(2) But, they also have consistently good AMD prices and consistently bad Intel prices over time. Yes, occasional sales in Intel prices are okay. But I'm talking about long term trends.

Those are not mutually exclusive points.

I posted better intel prices in Germany at other German sites a few posts above. I'll use the same sites for AMD chips. Here are current AMD 5800X prices with Mindfactory significantly cheaper:
How about one of Mindfactory's best sellers, the 3600 with Mindfactory significantly cheaper:
Could keep going on and on, day after day, but I doubt people will believe actual links with actual prices here because they often have ulterior motives.
You keep talking about long term trends but then give current prices..

Do you have any links that demonstrate these long term trends or are we to take your word for it?
 

pj-

Senior member
May 5, 2015
418
161
116
You'll have to take my word for it. I've been following prices for years. Of course, you won't take my word for it and you won't take current prices either. That is your choice to ignore facts. Could you please tell me why you are unhappy with this data (not why you are unhappy with the messenger)? Do you want to join me in making a thread that tracks the prices over time?

Mindfactory sells lots of AMD chips, they buy in larger bulk prices, and get better deals. That is not true of Intel chips. Mindfactory buys and sells small quantities of Intel chips and does not get as good of bulk pricing.
Ok, I don't have any evidence you're lying or would lie, so I will take your word for it.

Here's a chart of their sales from a couple years ago:


Since I believe your claim that it's a historical trend, we can assume their intel prices were also bad in 2017/2018. Despite mindfactory's extortionate intel pricing, people didn't seem to mind shopping there when intel's products were more attractive.

You could certainly say that german/euro specific figures aren't directly applicable globally, but I don't think it's valid to use pricing as a reason to discount the accuracy of their data for the local market.
 

inf64

Diamond Member
Mar 11, 2011
3,142
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The IPC results are telling, intel hit the 19% only in FP heavy code. In integer it is 13% in ST and 7% in MT. Zen3 has a massive IPC advantage over this thing and clocks ~5% lower out of the box. Power numbers are insane but expected. 11900K will add maybe 4-5% to these numbers so nothing major, it's still inferior product in almost every single way (except AVX512 which is like 0.01% of all workloads).

It's DOA unless AMD is able to screw up the supply side for the next 8 months.

I hate to say it I told you so, but I told you so.
 

tamz_msc

Platinum Member
Jan 5, 2017
2,837
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So it consumed "300W," reached 100 degrees celsius, and still did this:

View attachment 40724

How many 5800Xs would you need to reproduce that result? How many 5950Xs? Sometimes, you wonder why people make certain remarks out of context. Anandtech has a bad habit of separating power consumption figures from the benchmarks from which they were derived. With the image above, now 292W doesn't seem so bad for the result. Does it? No other desktop chip can produce this result, except RKL, and by a country mile, yet it becomes the point of ridicule for a yet to be released chip, on a secret motherboard with unlimited power characteristics no one is familiar with.
And, of course, you'd have folks ridiculing AVX-512 and its uselessness for the mainstream platform. Well, that makes the power consumption concerns moot then, doesn't it? Unfortunately, the same critics of AVX-512 are mostly the same critics of the PEAK power draw of the chip. Amazing.
Read my comment in full. Ian's 3DPM workload is NOT representative of typical AVX2->AVX512 scaling. It uses intrinsics and is optimized by an ex-Intel employee who is among the few who knows how to extract the maximum from AVX512. Even Alex Yee, author of y-cruncher, which is hand-tuned and comes in at 500 KLOC, is not able to make it scale beyond 2x and that too when memory bandwidth isn't a bottleneck. x265 uses hand tuned assembly and is not able to extract more than 5-7% extra performance with AVX512.

Bottom line: if not explicitly using the wider vector width of AVX512, the typical uplift is <2x, and not 6x like you have in case of 3DPM.
 

Kocicak

Senior member
Jan 17, 2019
406
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106
Intel had every opportunity to say "don't do this" and they remained silent.
I believe it went this way:

"We have this review coming, do you want to comment on something?"

"Damn. No we do not want comment on anything."

I do not believe Intel was given a chance to stop it.
 

eek2121

Senior member
Aug 2, 2005
883
962
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None of you guys are asking the real question: Why are retailers stuck holding stock of these chips for over a month? The NDA also should have ended sooner.
 
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lobz

Golden Member
Feb 10, 2017
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Ok, I don't have any evidence you're lying or would lie, so I will take your word for it.

Here's a chart of their sales from a couple years ago:


Since I believe your claim that it's a historical trend, we can assume their intel prices were also bad in 2017/2018. Despite mindfactory's extortionate intel pricing, people didn't seem to mind shopping there when intel's products were more attractive.

You could certainly say that german/euro specific figures aren't directly applicable globally, but I don't think it's valid to use pricing as a reason to discount the accuracy of their data for the local market.
He's not lying, he's just clueless and he's making broad general statements backed with from a single day when he writes his comments. That's what I call having an agenda.
 

JoeRambo

Golden Member
Jun 13, 2013
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Welp, I didn't expect a latency regression, I wonder how it will fare in gaming with higher clocked ram and tighter timings. I hope AMD will make bank at Intel's expense though, they need that money to fund future R&D and Intel will be fine in the long run, they have plenty of resources unless they continue to screw things up further.
Can't really undo the damage of incompetent L3 cache setup. They have around the same memory latency now as AMD does with memory controller that is in different chip. A milestone. RIP Intel as we knew it.
 

tamz_msc

Platinum Member
Jan 5, 2017
2,837
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There's an army of die hard AMD fanatics who'll continue to reveal their intellectual maturity by posting the AVX-512 power draw without context.
Face it: a CPU that reaches 100 degrees and draws nearly 300W while running 25s of a scientific code is not praiseworthy by any standards, especially when it is well-known that Ian's 3DPM is an exception when it comes to scaling from AVX2->AVX512.
 

Kocicak

Senior member
Jan 17, 2019
406
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The chip was sold without the approval of Intel. The whole world knew about this so why would a professional reviewer exploit this loophole because of the technicality that arose out of an illegality, and an NDA signee at that?
I will fix it for you: The chips was were sold without the approval of Intel.

Have you noticed, that more people who got their CPUs early have been publishing benchmarks? In this situation, why not to make a proper review?

Speaking about exploiting loopholes - have you noticed that there is a whole consulting industry around exploiting legislative loopholes to "optimise taxes"? Companies do the maximum legally allowed to maximise their well being.

Why a reviewer or media company should not do the same?
 
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Timorous

Senior member
Oct 27, 2008
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I just read that review with the new BIOS update. Performance improved a bit, but the 11700K is is decidedly beaten by the 5800X.
That puts the Y-cruncher result in line with Ian's result. 9.1s for 250m vs 19.2 for 500m. The HardwareLuxx old result was 26.1s for 500m for the 11700K .

This makes me think the BIOS Ian used had some of the fixes others talk about.

EDIT: If you go through the review you can see the other gains. 0.5% improvement in gaming over their old review.
 
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Timorous

Senior member
Oct 27, 2008
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Ian was careful not to divulge the motherboard brand and BIOS revision used in the review. Some accused him of obfuscating to hide poor testing methodology, but the more likely reason was protecting his source for the latest available BIOS at the time of the review.
That is looking to be the case with a 2nd set of benches on the 0603 BIOS largely aligning with what Ian got.
 

PhonakV30

Senior member
Oct 26, 2009
978
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Here :
now read comments :


One said :
I even got bios today from Shamino, and I tried to overclock memory and cpu/ring "to the max"
It's impossible to fix Rocketlake. Well it's pretty fast with 3733c14 tweaked (why not faster than 3733mhz *** !) in 1:1 mode with 5.1 ghz all core, but it's not even close to "max" overclocked 10900k in games with 4700c17 memory.
L1 cache is about 20% slower ! than 10900k LOL ***?
I can run 4533c14 1:2 mode, but still latency is pretty bad and bandwidth is average. Maybe I'm not a pro Rocketlake overclocker, but it looks like it's unfixable.
If you compare anadtech/Hardwareluxx , Not much different in game performance.Those buyer said they can't do OC above 3733 with 1:1 mode then It's officially DOA for gaming
 
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dmens

Platinum Member
Mar 18, 2005
2,159
673
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I didn't assume. In fact I made no statement at all regarding that. I asked you for links to see what it is for myself. You are the one just stating it.

So, you are not including AVX-512? Lets see why that might be from Anandtech's preview.
That seems to me like you exclude the cases where Rocket Lake is way more power efficient then conclude that it therefore must be less power efficient.
Sure, Intel is way more efficient in doing something that nobody cares about. I will definitely give you that, that is Intel's specialty.

If I am going to refrain from using a joke instruction set to criticize power consumption, at least you can refrain from using that same joke instruction set to brag about relative efficiency: it is like bragging about being the best at digging a ditch in the middle of nowhere.
 

moonbogg

Lifer
Jan 8, 2011
10,063
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The 11900K might make sense from a performance perspective to get the healthier silicon for better OCs (potentially), but if it's near $600 then oh wow, that's a tragically bad deal. You can get a 5900X with four more...oh wait. No you can't. The 5000 series doesn't exist anymore. Oh well, $600 it is then I guess.
 

UsandThem

Elite Member
Super Moderator
May 4, 2000
14,582
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The 11900K might make sense from a performance perspective to get the healthier silicon for better OCs (potentially), but if it's near $600 then oh wow, that's a tragically bad deal. You can get a 5900X with four more...oh wait. No you can't. The 5000 series doesn't exist anymore. Oh well, $600 it is then I guess.
The 5800X has been in stock at multiple retailers over the last 5 days or so. CPUs like the 5600X were also available, but only for a few hours on the major sites. I imagine in another couple of weeks it won't be that tough to get one as the price scalpers are able to sell them at is falling fast.
 

Makaveli

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2002
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The 5800X has been in stock at multiple retailers over the last 5 days or so. CPUs like the 5600X were also available, but only for a few hours on the major sites. I imagine in another couple of weeks it won't be that tough to get one as the price scalpers are able to sell them at is falling fast.
100% agreed.

When I check my local stores now i'm seeing 5600X and 5800X in stock and plenty of them.
 

Asterox

Senior member
May 15, 2012
502
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Wow, basically DOA. Yikes.


TL/DR - Slower at games than 9th and 10th gen parts on the regular. Uses more power.

Kudos to Anandtech for a rare scoop.
It is expected, waving Rocket Lake red flags has been seen before in several examples.


 

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