'I THOUGHT WE WERE DIFFERENT' -US General

GrGr

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Sep 25, 2003
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'I THOUGHT WE WERE DIFFERENT'

Wed Sep 8, 7:08 PM ET


By Georgie Anne Geyer

WASHINGTON -- Several months ago in North Carolina, where many American military officers have retired, I ran into an elderly general I had known in Vietnam. He was always the personification of the "officer and a gentleman," a man so honorable that even members of the press had nothing to say against him.

We chatted about our melancholy memories of meeting in Vietnam in the late 1960s and, of course, we talked about Iraq (news - web sites). Finally, he said sadly, shaking his head, "And I thought we were different."

This week, as we approach the third anniversary of the attacks on 9/11, one question hangs over many in the country, surely most of the people I meet. It is no longer a question of whether we can "win" this war (we cannot, in any traditional sense, without a cost so humongous it would destroy us morally as a nation). It is no longer a question of whether the purported reason for the Iraq war was false or even falsified (we know beyond the shadow of a doubt that the WMD threat did not exist).

No, this third anniversary brings us face to face with a deeper and endlessly haunting question: Have we changed as a people so as to be willing, as the polls show us, to re-elect men and women who have misled us and lied to us every step of the way? And others: Are we willing to accept the fact that, even as our American losses topped 1,000 this week, we probably also killed up to 2,500 "insurgents" in only the last week? Have we, the rational, "exceptional" people of our history, been overtaken by the war fever and that same identification with the demented warrior-leader as lesser peoples throughout history?

War never stands alone. It quickly develops its own rationale, its own being, its own hypnotic power -- and the neocons who used a naive president to get us into this war knew that from the start. People never get out of a fight, despite knowing it is hopeless, midway through the conflict, even when it becomes abundantly clear that it is in their interest to do so. (Read Barbara Tuchman's great "The March of Folly" and compare Iraq to her examples of human "folly," from the Trojan Horse to Vietnam.)

Nor do wars simply end, even for the victor. All of Europe suffered for the next 50 years (and, indeed, until today) for the Allies' "winning" World War I, with the bloom of British, French and German youth destroyed and the stage set for the next world war. In the uneven and unexpected practice of war, no one ever walks out the door the same way he walked in.

Even the administration now admits the doleful truths of Iraq. This week, the Pentagon (news - web sites) acknowledged that "insurgents" control important parts of central Iraq and that it was unclear when American and Iraqi forces would be able to secure those areas, much less hold elections in January, which has been the supposed answer to everything. (You can bet that forces will not go into those areas until after the American elections.)

In fact, many in the administration, especially the career uniformed military who have been privately against this war from the very beginning, are simply reflecting in slightly muted terms what the major military analysis groups of the world are saying.

Britain's highly regarded Royal Institute of International Affairs, for instance, in a bleak assessment of where the U.S. stands 18 months after the launch of the war, suggests that at the most, the U.S. and its coalition can hope only for a "muddle through" scenario -- holding the country together but falling short of the original goal of creating a democracy friendly to the West. The Middle East team of the institute, which is chartered by Queen Elizabeth II (news - web sites), warned that Iraq would be lucky if it managed to avoid a complete breakup and civil war and if the country did not become the spark for a vortex of regional upheavals.

Still another bleak report came from the Carnegie Endowment by the accomplished scholar Graham E. Fuller, former vice chairman of the National Intelligence Council at the CIA (news - web sites). He warns that while Islam and democracy are not incompatible in principle, the "increasing radicalization of a Muslim world that feels under siege is creating a highly negative environment not conducive to strengthening moderate versions of political Islam." Until the external sources of radicalization are diminished, he writes, such as the Palestinian problem, the departure of U.S. troops from the region and an end to the "broad-brush, anti-Muslim discrimination resulting from the war on terrorism," there are no grounds for optimism.

In short, our presence there is working directly against our purported reasons for going there. And if President Bush (news - web sites) is re-elected, the Palestinian problem will almost surely have reached its point of no return, as Israel expands and the next target of the Great Anti-Terrorist Crusade becomes Iran. War without end.

Is this what the American people really want? Have we changed so much, from our mission of being an example to mankind to becoming its emperor? All one can really do on this third anniversary is pose the questions.

link
 

maddogchen

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2004
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Such a weird article. It states what the general says and then goes off on what the writer thinks without going into any detail the conversion they had.
 

JackStorm

Golden Member
Aug 26, 2003
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Originally posted by: maddogchen
Such a weird article. It states what the general says and then goes off on what the writer thinks without going into any detail the conversion they had.

Yeah, it was rather odd. Seemed like the writer was just using the general to get peoples attention, so we could be enlightened by the writers opinion.

Can't say I liked the article all that much.
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
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Have we changed so much, from our mission of being an example to mankind to becoming its emperor?

Yeah, I much preferred when we were a wonderful example of allowing mass-murdering dictators to rule with impunity. Why'd we have to go and screw things up by giving Saddam such a hard time, after all he only nerve gassed a few Kurd villages? If only we could go back to the days of yore before OIF when we would just wink at a Pol Pot enjoying his killing fields. Or we didn't disturb those millions of Africans dying of starvation because of civil war in Ethiopia. Or get in the way of the busy work of genocides. Yeah, those were the days.
 
Feb 10, 2000
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Originally posted by: glenn1

Yeah, I much preferred when we were a wonderful example of allowing mass-murdering dictators to rule with impunity. Why'd we have to go and screw things up by giving Saddam such a hard time, after all he only nerve gassed a few Kurd villages? If only we could go back to the days of yore before OIF when we would just wink at a Pol Pot enjoying his killing fields. Or we didn't disturb those millions of Africans dying of starvation because of civil war in Ethiopia. Or get in the way of the busy work of genocides. Yeah, those were the days.

A) It's not clear whether the gas used on those Kurd villages originated from Iran or Iraq. If it came from Iraq, it was likely developed substantially thanks to the support illegally funneled to Iraq under the Reagan and GHWB administrations, through what would later be called the Iraqgate program.

B) We are presently, post-OIF, allowing genocide to take place in the Sudan - even Scty Powell has used that word in regard to the situation. If there's been a change in our philosophy (and I agree there has), you couldn't tell by our treatment of genocide.

 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
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Originally posted by: DonVito
A) It's not clear whether the gas used on those Kurd villages originated from Iran or Iraq. If it came from Iraq, it was likely developed substantially thanks to the support illegally funneled to Iraq under the Reagan and GHWB administrations, through what would later be called the Iraqgate program.

B) We are presently, post-OIF, allowing genocide to take place in the Sudan - even Scty Powell has used that word in regard to the situation. If there's been a change in our philosophy (and I agree there has), you couldn't tell by our treatment of genocide.
Would you support the use of our troops in Sudan ahead of a UN resolution on the matter?
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
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www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: glenn1
Have we changed so much, from our mission of being an example to mankind to becoming its emperor?

Yeah, I much preferred when we were a wonderful example of allowing mass-murdering dictators to rule with impunity. Why'd we have to go and screw things up by giving Saddam such a hard time, after all he only nerve gassed a few Kurd villages? If only we could go back to the days of yore before OIF when we would just wink at a Pol Pot enjoying his killing fields. Or we didn't disturb those millions of Africans dying of starvation because of civil war in Ethiopia. Or get in the way of the busy work of genocides. Yeah, those were the days.

Yeah, I much preferred when we were a wonderful example of the American Dream. We led by the ordinary able to achieve the extraordinary, now we're a divided scorched Country of the the mighty greedy Elitist Rich doing all they can to screw over the rest of the Country and the world.

 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
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A) It's not clear whether the gas used on those Kurd villages originated from Iran or Iraq. If it came from Iraq, it was likely developed substantially thanks to the support illegally funneled to Iraq under the Reagan and GHWB administrations, through what would later be called the Iraqgate program.

B) We are presently, post-OIF, allowing genocide to take place in the Sudan - even Scty Powell has used that word in regard to the situation. If there's been a change in our philosophy (and I agree there has), you couldn't tell by our treatment of genocide.

Both your examples are simply where the U.S. is in the wrong (which we've been plenty of times in the past as well as present) and neither one has any relationship to nor lends any support whatsoever to the argument that we shouldn't have gone into Iraq. Now with OIF we're (for once in a blue moon) on the right side of history and morality and you complain. I don't get it.
 
Feb 10, 2000
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Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Would you support the use of our troops in Sudan ahead of a UN resolution on the matter?

I'd suggest it would likely be easy to get the UN Security Council, who set a deadline of 30 August for Sudan to cease anti-African activities, to issue such a resolution. In the interim, I would not oppose the use of US forces, solely in a peacekeeping/humanitarian role, in anticipation of a resolution. No, to answer your next question, I do not regard that as fungible with OIF by any stretch of the imagination.
 
Feb 10, 2000
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Originally posted by: glenn1

Both your examples are simply where the U.S. is in the wrong (which we've been plenty of times in the past as well as present) and neither one has any relationship to nor lends any support whatsoever to the argument that we shouldn't have gone into Iraq. Now with OIF we're (for once in a blue moon) on the right side of history and morality and you complain. I don't get it.

You're entitled to your opinion, but I don't think an offensive war, against a nation that posed no real, imminent (or even foreseeable) danger to the US, is right, morally or otherwise, nor do I think it complies with the law of war. You obviously feel differently. In fact, I regard OIF as a greater military and foreign policy failure than Vietnam, where at least we were ostensibly propping up an existing regime - OIF was an offensive attack under any coherent definition I can think of.

In the words of John Quincy Adams, whose opinion matters more to me than any anonymous poster on a bulletin board, "America goes not abroad in search of monsters to destroy... She might become the dictatress of the world. She would no longer be the ruler of her own spirit. "
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
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I'd suggest it would likely be easy to get the UN Security Council, who set a deadline of 30 August for Sudan to cease anti-African activities, to issue such a resolution. In the interim, I would not oppose the use of US forces, solely in a peacekeeping/humanitarian role, in anticipation of a resolution. No, to answer your next question, I do not regard that as fungible with OIF by any stretch of the imagination.

So allowing Saddam to remain in power was morally preferrable to taking unilateral actions to remove him. For you, tyranny falls below UN concensus. Which is of course the very source of moral legitimacy. Iraq = bad because of no resolution, Sudan = good even preemptively because of expectation of resolution. Okay, gotcha.
 
Feb 10, 2000
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Originally posted by: glenn1

So allowing Saddam to remain in power was morally preferrable to taking unilateral actions to remove him. For you, tyranny falls below UN concensus. Which is of course the very source of moral legitimacy. Iraq = bad because of no resolution, Sudan = good even preemptively because of expectation of resolution. Okay, gotcha.

Wrong and wrong, and the UN has nothing to do with it, as I'm sure you know. I'm suggesting I would support peacekeeping/humanitarian efforts in Sudan, not massive nighttime bombing with PGMs. There's a big difference between protecting and attacking, and we have killed a lot more Iraqi civilians in the last year than Saddam Hussein has.

I said it before and I'll say it again: "America goes not abroad in search of monsters to destroy... She might become the dictatress of the world. She would no longer be the ruler of her own spirit. "

Are you suggesting we should violently overthrow every ruler in the world we don't agree with, whether or not he poses any danger to Americans?
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
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Originally posted by: DonVito
I'd suggest it would likely be easy to get the UN Security Council, who set a deadline of 30 August for Sudan to cease anti-African activities, to issue such a resolution. In the interim, I would not oppose the use of US forces, solely in a peacekeeping/humanitarian role, in anticipation of a resolution. No, to answer your next question, I do not regard that as fungible with OIF by any stretch of the imagination.
Unfortunately, I have little faith in the UN acting rapidly on anything anymore. Thanks for putting words in my mouth, though. :thumbsup:
Originally posted by: DonVito
Wrong and wrong, and the UN has nothing to do with it, as I'm sure you know. I'm suggesting I would support peacekeeping/humanitarian efforts in Sudan, not massive nighttime bombing with PGMs. There's a big difference between protecting and attacking, and we have killed a lot more Iraqi civilians in the last year than Saddam Hussein has.
Is this some kind of sick joke? 5,000 a DAY were dying while he was in power, compared to 13,000 killed by us in the last 18 months. Maybe not directly by his hand, but by his using food moneys to build palaces.
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
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I said it before and I'll say it again: "America goes not abroad in search of monsters to destroy... She might become the dictatress of the world. She would no longer be the ruler of her own spirit. "

To which I reply, "one man with great courage makes a majority." Andrew Jackson, Democrat. I think he'd agree if we included those who are doing the work of morality in with the courageous.

Are you suggesting we should violently overthrow every ruler in the world we don't agree with, whether or not he poses any danger to Americans?

If you narrowed the field to despots and it were possible to do, then yes. I would violently remove the Kim Jong Ils and Robert Mugabes of the world in a heartbeat if it were in my power. Obviously as we have already pointed out you think it's a higher moral calling to leave them to their dictatorial pleasures such as allowing a few million people to starve than to take military action against them.
 

Cobalt

Diamond Member
Apr 3, 2000
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Originally posted by: CycloWizard
Originally posted by: DonVito
I'd suggest it would likely be easy to get the UN Security Council, who set a deadline of 30 August for Sudan to cease anti-African activities, to issue such a resolution. In the interim, I would not oppose the use of US forces, solely in a peacekeeping/humanitarian role, in anticipation of a resolution. No, to answer your next question, I do not regard that as fungible with OIF by any stretch of the imagination.
Unfortunately, I have little faith in the UN acting rapidly on anything anymore. Thanks for putting words in my mouth, though. :thumbsup:
Originally posted by: DonVito
Wrong and wrong, and the UN has nothing to do with it, as I'm sure you know. I'm suggesting I would support peacekeeping/humanitarian efforts in Sudan, not massive nighttime bombing with PGMs. There's a big difference between protecting and attacking, and we have killed a lot more Iraqi civilians in the last year than Saddam Hussein has.
Is this some kind of sick joke? 5,000 a DAY were dying while he was in power, compared to 13,000 killed by us in the last 18 months. Maybe not directly by his hand, but by his using food moneys to build palaces.

Saddam Hussein did not kill over 40 million people.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
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www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: cobalt

Saddam Hussein did not kill over 40 million people.

Probably not but we have resulted in the deaths at least of over 30,000 innocent Iraqi citizens.

They sure don't seem all to thrilled in having Saddam gone and us in his place.
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
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Originally posted by: cobalt
Saddam Hussein did not kill over 40 million people.
Umm.... OK. Am I missing something here?
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Saddam Hussein did not kill over 40 million people.

Probably not but we have resulted in the deaths at least of over 30,000 innocent Iraqi citizens.

They sure don't seem all to thrilled in having Saddam gone and us in his place.[/quote]
Let me guess, you got these numbers the same place you got your economic numbers for today, right? Try around 12,800. http://www.iraqbodycount.net/
 
May 10, 2001
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Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: cobalt

Saddam Hussein did not kill over 40 million people.

Probably not but we have resulted in the deaths at least of over 30,000 innocent Iraqi citizens.

They sure don't seem all to thrilled in having Saddam gone and us in his place.
that's not even 1/100th as bad as Saddam, and i call BS on your numbers.

Have we changed so much, from our mission of being an example to mankind to becoming its emperor?
I?m sorry, are you unaware that when you have might you do what you can to help your people?
 

Cobalt

Diamond Member
Apr 3, 2000
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Call BS on my numbers Cyclo and LMK? Cyclo said 5,000 a day were dying under his power. He took power in the late 1970s. So I did the math and came somewhere in the 42 million range. I don't think 42 million Iraqis died under the power of Saddam Hussein.
 

Kibbo

Platinum Member
Jul 13, 2004
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glenn,

You are making an error in logic I have seen you commit over and over again.

You can not draw an analogy between countries where there is an immediate threat of large-scale loss of life and countries where that loss of life happened 10 or 20 years ago.

Saddam was not presently nor threatening to in the immediate future commit any large-scale humanitarian crimes. Thus, no large-scale loss of life was prevented by the US's actions. How many Iraqis would have died at the hand of Saddam in tha past couple of years without US intervention? How many have died with US intervention? Unless you can find evidence that there have actually been lives saved, you cannot use the humanitarian argument. I doubt you will be able to find such evidence.

The humanitarian argument for invading Iraq is weak. It is even weaker considering that the initial reasons used to justify the invasion had little to do with humanitarian concerns.
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
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Originally posted by: cobalt
Call BS on my numbers Cyclo and LMK? Cyclo said 5,000 a day were dying under his power. He took power in the late 1970s. So I did the math and came somewhere in the 42 million range. I don't think 42 million Iraqis died under the power of Saddam Hussein.
Oh my! Apparently, 'a day' translates into 'every day since he took power.' Nice try, strawman. Try sticking to the spirit of the argument rather than trying to wax literalism to make us look bad.
 
Feb 10, 2000
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I question the 5,000/day number anyway - we haven't seen a source for that - but I'll observe that these deaths were pretty much all caused indirectly by the UN sanctions imposed on Iraq after the first Gulf War. In 1990, Iraq had one of the lowest rates of child mortality in the world - by 2000 it was one of the highest.

Obviously Saddam Hussein was a bloodthirsty despot and could have done much more to look out for his people's interests, but it's oversimplistic to categorically say he caused these deaths (whereas the civilian casualties of OIF, over 11,000 to date, were clearly caused by the US).
 

Cobalt

Diamond Member
Apr 3, 2000
4,642
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Originally posted by: CycloWizard
Originally posted by: cobalt
Call BS on my numbers Cyclo and LMK? Cyclo said 5,000 a day were dying under his power. He took power in the late 1970s. So I did the math and came somewhere in the 42 million range. I don't think 42 million Iraqis died under the power of Saddam Hussein.
Oh my! Apparently, 'a day' translates into 'every day since he took power.' Nice try, strawman. Try sticking to the spirit of the argument rather than trying to wax literalism to make us look bad.

Angry at me? I'm just going on your information oh-enlightened-one. "5,000 a DAY were dying while he was in power".

EDIT: You know what, that is going in my sig. Thanks!
 

Klixxer

Diamond Member
Apr 7, 2004
6,149
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Originally posted by: CycloWizard
Originally posted by: cobalt
Call BS on my numbers Cyclo and LMK? Cyclo said 5,000 a day were dying under his power. He took power in the late 1970s. So I did the math and came somewhere in the 42 million range. I don't think 42 million Iraqis died under the power of Saddam Hussein.
Oh my! Apparently, 'a day' translates into 'every day since he took power.' Nice try, strawman. Try sticking to the spirit of the argument rather than trying to wax literalism to make us look bad.

Man, sometimes you are just being too damn stubborn. You said that he killed 5000 a day, the wording does not say that he did this one day and not any other day.

Tell me, when someone asks you how much you make do you then say "i make xxxxx a month, every month" so they will get that it is every month and not just one month in your lifetime?

And i ask you for a link to back up your claim.
 

judasmachine

Diamond Member
Sep 15, 2002
8,515
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All the BS about this country only engaging when it has moral supremecy is gone and out the door for good. No one has moral supremecy and never will.