Originally posted by: CycloWizard
The 'spirit' of this thread is nothing more than your whining. Homosexuals are not an ethnic group, and I doubt that many, if any, of your family members were homosexuals, much less persecuted homosexuals. Thus, you're just trying to draw attention to yourself, who has not been wronged in the ways that you previously mentioned. If you can offer any evidence to the contrary, I'll be happy to review it. Until then,.
So? Your point?
Iran does a lot of screwed up stuff - not just to gays. I wouldn't even hardly recognize them as a government. And I'm guessing it's being done because of Islam or whatever religion you want to call what they practice. I don't see how that compares to the Catholic church.
It's called being realistic, and not a touchy-feely, PC, wah the world owes me something, human being. Note that I have plenty of friends who are gay, and even they would think that what you are proposing is ridiculous. They have their feet planted on earth like most of the people in this thread.
I don't understand why everyone is becoming all up-set over this, there has been plently of minorites and other groups that have been apologized to for discrimination and other 'nasty' behavior.
Asking for a simple apology and recongitition of previous misdeads isn't asking much at all. There are plenty of organizations that probably should, for example the catholic church and their cover-ups of child abuse. They would garner much more needed respect...
Asking for a simple apology and recongitition of previous misdeads isn't asking much at all. There are plenty of organizations that probably should, for example the catholic church and their cover-ups of child abuse. They would garner much more needed respect...
A summary of state and church sponsored violence against homosexuals (including brief mention of the various methods of torture and killing) can be found here.
A few randomly chosen examples from thru out the ages:
"Giovanni di Giovanni (ca. 1350 ? May 7, 1365?) is one of the younger victims of the campaign against sodomy, waged in Florence since the Middle Ages against the majority of male population of the city. He was convicted by the Podestà court of being the passive partner of a number of different men. He was labeled "a public and notorious passive sodomite." His punishment was to be paraded on the back of an ass, then to be publicly castrated. Finally, he was to have his anus burned with a red-hot iron (or, as the sentence read: "[punished] in that part of the body where he allowed himself to be known in sodomitical practice.") It is presumed he did not survive the ordeal." - link
" the Knights Templars were almost as powerful as the Holy Roman Church. Recognizing a threat when he saw one, Pope Clement V persuaded King Philip le Bel in 1307 to issue an arrest order, accusing the Knights Templars of sodomy, heresy, general abominations and criminal acts. Philip himself was homosexual, but he stood to gain much wealth by outlawing the "heretics." On October 13 of that year, Jacques de Molay, Grand Master of the Order, was arrested along with 140 Knights. They were hideously tortured, and confessed to heresy, sodomy, cannibalism and a host of other crimes. More than a hundred of them were then burned to death, and 51 more were cremated in 1311." - Link
"the commonly-held view (whether true or not) that the Templars were homosexual strengthened the Church's already deeply ingrained prejudice against homosexuals. This charge became a major weapon in the arsenal of the Crusades and the Inquisition. As mentioned, in 1209 Pope Innocent began the Crusade against the heretical and sodomitical Albigensians in France. It was a wholesale slaughter. In Beziers alone nearly 20,000 heretics perished by the sword. Several thousand heretics who had fled for refuge to the Church of Mary Magdalene were massacred after the Crusaders had amused themselves by gouging out their eyes. Within twenty years a million heretics were exterminated. The Cathar movement was similarly expunged. It is against this political background in which heresy and homosexuality were so closely aligned as to be virtually identical, that the great Church Father St Thomas Aquinas (1225-74) formulated his Christian sexual ethics: "right reason declares the appointed end of sexual acts is procreation," and declared that homosexuality was one of the gravest of the peccata contra naturam or "sins against nature," which is still the official view of most Roman Catholic, Orthodox, and even Protestant Christian Churches."
-"Once Pope Innocent VIII issued his Bull Summis desiderantes affectibus on December 5, 1484, giving the Inquisition full power to seek out and destroy witches, the sickening note in the margin of the court records is always the same: Conuicta et combusta ? "Convicted and burned." The tale may be as horrifying as that of the Nazi concentration camps, and the death toll as high. The story has been told many times, making us aware how thoroughly and perhaps irredeemably the Christian Church disgraced itself, how amply Christians made recompense for their own persecution under the Roman emperors centuries earlier." - Link
- "During the 1950s and 1960s, some otherwise freedom-loving governments waged secret wars against suspected homosexuals within their borders. During those years, Canada?s campaign to eliminate all homosexuals from the military, police, and the civil service was particularly broad and unforgiving, with the Royal Canadian Mounted Police (RCMP) compiling files on over 9,000 suspected homosexuals. Reports indicate that the RCMP created Security Service subsection A-3 in the 1950s, whose sole purpose was the identification and dismissal of every gay person in public service." - Link
- "In the 1970s and 1980s, ?suspected? gay men and lesbians in
the South African Defense Force (SADF) were forced to undergo
?conversion therapy? and other forms of ?treatment? without
their informed consent. In violation of both human rights and
sound public health principles, they ?were subjected to physical
and psychological torture, experimentation and general gross
maltreatment, including aversion therapy and chemical
castration.? Those responsible for carrying out such practices
included both military and health professionals. Aversion
therapy sometimes involved applying electric current, via
electrodes, to men while they were shown pictures of naked
men. The current would be turned off when photographs of
naked women were substituted for those of men. AI has
supported the call for the appointment of a commission of
inquiry into these allegations of gross human rights violations." - Link
- "1951: last known example of lobotomy (psychosurgery) used to treat homosexuality in the USA.[14] But hospitalisation and other treatments, like aversion therapy, remained common throughout the 1960s and beyond." - Link
- "Lobotomies of gay people stopped in Western Germany only in 1979. In the 17 years since 1962 30 homosexuals were operated on the hypothalamus. In Norway lobotomy victims got 100.000 nkr. in compensation (18 of the 35 first operations in Norway were fatal for the patients). In Sweden more than 3.300 were lobotomized, the Danish number was a recordhigh 3.500, the Norwegian number was 2.500. Denmark was world leader numerically in proportion to the population with lobotomies and the last operation took place as late as 1981. According to a TV-documentary from SVT, Sweden in 1998, in which was revealed an example of lobotomy to "cure" a lesbian woman . Lobotomy-operations were pioneered by the Portuguise Dr. Egas Moniz(1874 - 1955) in 1935 , for which he became the Nobel-price in 1949. This spurred doctors like American Walter Freeman to brutally operate no less than 4000 patients in the 40's in USA using a golden ice pick.." - Link
The Middle Ages? Who cares? That is such ancient history. Find me something where the Catholic church sanctioned this sort of violence in the 20th century please.
I think the answer to that is two-part. The first is because the OP is known for being overly dramatic about things, the second is it's a slippery slope. If they are forced to apoligize for everything that has happened in the past; what's next, forcing governments to apoligize to a group of people that have stubbed their toes on government owned property?
I want an apology from the British and American governments because my Italian ancestors were discriminated against when they came over here.
so why does US have to apologize for crimes Italy did in 1365? Or you want the World to apologize?
1 - Yes, aidanjm does tend to become over dramatic about issuse, however he only asked for a simple formal apology. I don't know about you, but that isn't asking for much in my opinion.
2 - Poor analogy, it's the fault of the persons who stubbed their toe, not the government.
I do, I think it'd be ridiculous to do. Just like I think it's ridiculous for a government that wasn't even in power to apologize for another government's acts.
Edit: By government, I mean the administration, bad choice of words.
bamacre
Lifer
- Jul 1, 2004
- 21,030
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I think it's our sense of reality that knows it'll never happen, and our sense of humor imagining it would. It has nothing to do with our belief that homosexuals deserve it or not. And like I said, even if pigs did fly, the apology would not be sincere and be of no value to anyone other than those foolish enough to believe it to be.
Really? The American Government wasn't in power when your ancestors came over?
Oh that's right I forgot about the Republic of Gilead...
The point ndtz is the principle of the act, time doesn't really matter in the eyes of justice
Originally posted by: Tab
Really? The American Government wasn't in power when your ancestors came over?
Oh that's right I forgot about the Republic of Gilead...
The point ndtz is the principle of the act, time doesn't really matter in the eyes of justice
Perhaps he should have said "Administration" not government.
Originally posted by: Tab
Really? The American Government wasn't in power when your ancestors came over?
Oh that's right I forgot about the Republic of Gilead...
The point ndtz is the principle of the act, time doesn't really matter in the eyes of justice
Government changes over every 4 or 8 years. I don't blame Bush's administration for what may or may not have happened decades ago.
Edit: I meant administration btw...
Point taken, though I beileve with future generations discrimination of homosexsuals will diminish greatly...
Originally posted by: OdiN
Originally posted by: Tab
Really? The American Government wasn't in power when your ancestors came over?
Oh that's right I forgot about the Republic of Gilead...
The point ndtz is the principle of the act, time doesn't really matter in the eyes of justice
Perhaps he should have said "Administration" not government.
I know exactly what he meant, I am just bored and got him on a lame technicality.
bamacre
Lifer
- Jul 1, 2004
- 21,030
- 2
- 61
Originally posted by: Tab
Originally posted by: OdiN
Originally posted by: Tab
Really? The American Government wasn't in power when your ancestors came over?
Oh that's right I forgot about the Republic of Gilead...
The point ndtz is the principle of the act, time doesn't really matter in the eyes of justice
Perhaps he should have said "Administration" not government.
I know exactly what he meant, I am just bored and got him on a lame technicality.
Actually, seeing what Bush has done to the US Gov't, I don't think you got him on a technicality. Not at all.
dahunan
Lifer
- Jan 10, 2002
- 18,191
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Because religious people and organizations see themselves as superior to those who are not like them-- is that why an apology would not be sincere?
American religious people got pimped by bush and the neocons and they still don't care ... this whole country could turn into a 3rd world nation as long as
Homosexuals were not given any rights
Abortions were made illegal
American religious people got pimped by bush and the neocons and they still don't care ... this whole country could turn into a 3rd world nation as long as
Homosexuals were not given any rights
Abortions were made illegal
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