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I think I'm turning into a peacenik or something.

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Lifer
The minute I heard about the bombing in Rishon Letzion yesterday, I said to myself, "Please, God, don't let this be an excuse for Sharon to send in the IDF."

I'm scaring myself. :Q
 
Sometimes I think that too...I know Israel would look a lot better if they just sat there and did nothing...

But then I put myself in Sharon's shoes...What if I had to run a country where I had mothers worrying whether or not their child would come back in a bodybag after a trip to the local cafe or disco?

I don't think I'd have it in me to tell them that I didn't want to do anything to protect her kids because some reporter a thousand miles away in California might call me a nasty name if I did.

In short, Sharon's not a big sweetheart by a longshot...but he's got very few alternatives...
 


<< Sometimes I think that too...I know Israel would look a lot better if they just sat there and did nothing...

But then I put myself in Sharon's shoes...What if I had to run a country where I had mothers worrying whether or not their child would come back in a bodybag after a trip to the local cafe or disco?

I don't think I'd have it in me to tell them that I didn't want to do anything to protect her kids because some reporter a thousand miles away in California might call me a nasty name if I did.

In short, Sharon's not a big sweetheart by a longshot...but he's got very few alternatives... >>


I would like to see Israel build a massive 50-foot wall around the entire country. And then, after the wall is finished, I would like to see Israel abandon every settlement in the West Bank.

EDIT: Negotiations will never work.
 
Peace is not a disease, it is simply a concept we cannot seem to grasp. Perhaps your focus has shifted from looking at the what you can achieve through fighting to what actually happens during a fight.
 
EDIT: Negotiations will never work.


It will, eventually. It will just require a less militant leader than sharon and a more moderate leader than arafat (sane and rational would help as well). I am convinced nothing good can come with these leaders in power.
 
I don't see why Sharon doesn't have the same reason to go after the terrorists with all his might as we did when the Al Queda struck us. How is it any different? At least Sharon has a group (Hamas) claiming they do the majority of the bombings. The EU pisses me off, because they will stand behind us in Afghanistan, but not do the same with Isreal in the West Bank.

Interesting how 40+ countries abstained from the recent UN vote backing the Palestinians after this latest terrorist act. Maybe they are finally understanding what Sharon and Isreal are up against.
 


<< I don't see why Sharon doesn't have the same reason to go after the terrorists with all his might as we did when the Al Queda struck us. How is it any different? At least Sharon has a group (Hamas) claiming they do the majority of the bombings. The EU pisses me off, because they will stand behind us in Afghanistan, but not do the same with Isreal in the West Bank. >>


I don't feel that what Sharon's government is doing is making my family any safer. If it were, I would be all for it.
 
And concerning the settlements (which I think should be completely removed ASAP) a jewish friend of mine (in israel) wrote to me:

Third, about the settelments, yes you are right, but we will do it for peace. this is our biggest card, we won't just give it away. They want us out, completely? give us peace and no terrorism. completely..


Its catch-22. (correct phrase, right?) Jews says no settlement pullout until peace, palestinians say peace for removing settlements. Of course, I dont trust either group to follow through a respective committment should the other side concede first.
 


<< I think Sept. 11th turned me into someone that I'm not. >>



I would like to think that's not possible. I find it more disturbing that you're reluctant to admit your own human compassion. No matter what side of a conflict your ideology leads you to stand with, I think it's ok to feel compassionate sympathy for those who die by violence.

"The best way of avenging yourself is not to become like the wrongdoer."
- Marcus Aurelius

 


<< EDIT: Negotiations will never work.


It will, eventually. It will just require a less militant leader than sharon and a more moderate leader than arafat (sane and rational would help as well). I am convinced nothing good can come with these leaders in power. >>



Same thing was said about Netenyahu (sp?). Same thing seems to be said about all Isreali PMs. Why is he considered militant because he wants to protect his country?

And I do believe he was in Washington yesterday with Bush on possible treaty settlements. And what happens during his talks....15 people get blown up!
 


<< The minute I heard about the bombing in Rishon Letzion yesterday, I said to myself, "Please, God, don't let this be an excuse for Sharon to send in the IDF."

I'm scaring myself. :Q >>



Congratulations. You're starting to look at consequences from both sides. I say the same thing every time Sharon orders the military to blow something up. "Please, God, don't let this be an excuse for the Palestinians to send in another suicide-bomber." It works both ways which is why the fighting continues. Only when both sides say, "STOP" to their own people will the fighting end.

Being a "peacenik" doesn't mean that you have to start putting daisies in your hair and playing bongos. Being willing to fight but sucking it up for the cause of peace is not the same as being a doormat.
 


<< "The best way of avenging yourself is not to become like the wrongdoer."
- Marcus Aurelius >>


very stoical advice from the Stoical Emperor
 
> The EU pisses me off, because they will stand behind us in Afghanistan, but not do the same with Isreal in the West Bank.

They sure have all the answers until you ask one of them to receive 13 terrorists, then there true colors show.

> I don't feel that what Sharon's government is doing is making my family any safer. If it were, I would be all for it.

Huh, aren't you here in the states? Or do you have other family back there? And if you do, how do THEY feel about it?

Did anyone else catch the story about the attempting bombing of the highrise in Israel, the IDF intercepted the truck the day/day before the planned attack on a 50 story building (biggest in the mideast). The truck had enough explosives to bring the building down. The Palestinines are working very hard to extend these attacks pass the lone suicide bomber into more high (and more lethal) attacks. Unfortunately, I think we are still being lucky that their attacks are hitting 1-15 people at a time instead or hundreds or thousands.

Bill


 


<<

<< EDIT: Negotiations will never work.


It will, eventually. It will just require a less militant leader than sharon and a more moderate leader than arafat (sane and rational would help as well). I am convinced nothing good can come with these leaders in power. >>



Same thing was said about Netenyahu (sp?). Same thing seems to be said about all Isreali PMs. Why is he considered militant because he wants to protect his country?

And I do believe he was in Washington yesterday with Bush on possible treaty settlements. And what happens during his talks....15 people get blown up! >>






Was not Rabin a more moderate leader? I confess to being too young to fully remembering his policies but per things I have read since, he was the best shot there was before he was assisinated (no pun intended).

The settlements need to stop and from what I know sharon has actively encouraged their growth. It goes without saying this is no excuse for terrorism. However, these settlements are basically civilian military occupations, correct? There are now 400K israeli jews living in occupied territories, double what they were in 1995/6.

While I do not believe removing settlements will make any difference while arafat is in power and other arab countries continue to use the palestinians as pawns, I do think it is critical to peace (in the long run) that they be removed.
 


<< Huh, aren't you here in the states? Or do you have other family back there? And if you do, how do THEY feel about it? >>


I have family living in Haifa. And I really don't know how they feel about it. All I know is that they are as tough as nails because the bombings don't even faze them anymore.
 

There are 200,000 settlers if you leave out East Jersusalem.

That correct. Im just quoting from the page I linked to, which seems to be fair to both sides.


In the West Bank, there are 206,000 Israeli settlers and 2 million Palestinians, although settlements, adjacent confiscated land, settlement roads and other land controlled by the IDF cover 59 percent of the area.


I also found an interesting quote on that page:


Every time I have gone to Israel in connection with the peace process on each of my trips I have been met with the announcement of new settlement activity. This does violate United States policy. It is the first thing that Arabs--Arab governments--the first thing that Palestinians in the territories--whose situation is really quite desperate--the first thing they raise when we talk to them. I don't think there is any greater obstacle to peace than settlement activity that continues not only unabated but at an advanced pace.



U. S. Secretary of State James A. Baker, May 22, 1991




Like I said though, I think the issue is merely symbolical until they are both out of power. Arafat sure as hell isnt making peace and I dont think sharon would withdraw the settlements anyways.
 


<< Like I said though, I think the issue is merely symbolical until they are both out of power. Arafat sure as hell isnt making peace and I dont think sharon would withdraw the settlements anyways. >>


Barak was willing to abandon 97-percent of the settlements (perhaps more).
 


<<

<< "The best way of avenging yourself is not to become like the wrongdoer."
- Marcus Aurelius >>


very stoical advice from the Stoical Emperor >>




Ahhh... I found a better one for you...

"Nemo doctus umquam...mutationem consilii inconstantiam dixit esse."
-Cicero 🙂 though he is also considered a stoic IIRC...
 


<< I have family living in Haifa. >>



Ah, so that's the motivation behind your constant posts about the conflict. I was wondering.

BTW, what do you translate your sig as saying. I have a couple ideas, but my Latin is rusty.
 
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