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I think I will renounce my citizenship (or exposé on the current situation in Eastern Europe)

Martin

Lifer
Jan 15, 2000
29,179
1
81
Long story short:
I was born in Bulgaria and my family came to Canada when I was still quite young (10). Anyway, my dad died late last month and we decided to hold the funeral in BG, since all our relatives are here. I don't want to get into details of his funeral (its rather personal), but let me say that the experience has left me utterly disgusted at what this society has evolved into.

Corruption here is simply beyond description. From the lowliest gravedigger to the highest ranking official, nearly everyone here is corrupt - everybody tries to get as much money out of you as they can. Policeman, doctors, lawyers, nurses, EVERYBODY!!!!! There aren't any laws, rules, morals or ethics, everybody is mean and nasty and corrupt. The beaurocracy here is overwhelming and everything is done with bribes -- I cannot count how many bribes we've given out since we came here 2 weeks ago.

In short, since the fall of communism, this society has taken the worst of communism and the worst of capitalism and has blended them in such a way it'll make most Westerns shiver.

And despite what some of you may think, this is not an exageration. Today I heard no fewer than 3 people say how incredibly bad Bulgaria has become and go into a rant similar to what I've said before. One person said "I never thought I'd live to tell my children to get as far away from this country as they can". To further support this, I know 1 person my age (20) that has no wish to leave Bulgaria. Everyone else is looking for a way to get out.

To be fair, there are still decent people left here, and I have nothing but pity for them. Over the last 2 weeks I've heard so many stories of so much suffering it's enough to make anybody's eyes water.

Some of you may be thinking Eastern Europe is improving due to some macroeconomic factors, but this is just another example of the GDP not telling your how good a country is. Here the country is only getting worse.
What makes this even more of a tragedy is that this is not what the country was like. The stories by mom tells me (and my dad used to tell me) are of a vastly different place. Sure there were limited freedoms, but there was order, security and a better lifestyle for almost everyone. A lot people would gladly go back to the communist days if they could.

And to make things even more depressing, Bulgaria is not a unique case. Greece seems a bit better, but not much. Romania and former yugoslav countries are in the same boat. I highly doubt the rest of eastern europe, russia, and former russian republics are any better.



Anyway, I am going to be back in Canada next week and I will not be comming back here (posting this from a net cafe). Shortly after that, I will go to the BG consulate and renounce my BG citizenship, because quite frankly, I've had enough of this country.
For the rest of my life, I will be only a Canadian and count myself extremely fortunate that I can live in such a great country.


I know this is borderline P&N material, but its kinda serious and could be considered an exposé on the current situation in Eastern Europe.
 

Sternfan

Senior member
May 24, 2003
203
0
0
WOW that is really sad I am sorry to hear your Country is in such bad shape but I don't understand why you would renounce your citizenship. Your Country needs people like you to represent them and show the world all people from BG are not bad. I'm not saying go back there and live or even to visit again but be proud you are not like that. Just think some poor slob from Canada will visit BG some day and hate it and everything about it and talk to you and say you are the nicest Bulgarian I have ever met. Cheers
 

mastertech01

Moderator Emeritus<br>Elite Member
Nov 13, 1999
11,631
0
76
You can imagine a nation that was anchored into early 20th century dictatorship for decades and suddenly cut loose to face the 21st century and told they are on thier own could and would fall into a trap of corruption for survival. Its not like the USA which won its independence in the 18th century with little technology or modern civilization to overwhelm them from all corners of the earth.

It will take great care and people determined to turn it around into a lawfull and ethical society with a government like you are accustomed to. It isnt something that happens over night, and maybe not for a hundred years, if ever. I believe you just are witnessing what many nations have endured. Growing pains, lessons learned over time, and the realization that no country will ever rise out of the ashes without ethical standards, enforced by the people for the people thru a lawful governing authority with a constitution and written law, and an appropriate justice system. Just a few of the many levels of growth your former homeland must see through. IMHO
 

Alistar7

Lifer
May 13, 2002
11,983
0
0
and he chose Canada, lol, well, at least you will always be protected by the US, where most people looking for a better life usually choose.....
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
I wouldn't renounce anything. Just spread the word far and wide when you're safe and sound in Canada. You can do more by that than anything else. Some day your homeland may become part of something bigger and you could benefit from that. Names and addresses of the bad guys put em in the spotlight... Let the world know who they are if your family in BG won't get in trouble.

This is sad! But, fixable. My Best to you and yours.
 

BOBDN

Banned
May 21, 2002
2,579
0
0
Originally posted by: mastertech01
You can imagine a nation that was anchored into early 20th century dictatorship for decades and suddenly cut loose to face the 21st century and told they are on thier own could and would fall into a trap of corruption for survival. Its not like the USA which won its independence in the 18th century with little technology or modern civilization to overwhelm them from all corners of the earth.

It will take great care and people determined to turn it around into a lawfull and ethical society with a government like you are accustomed to. It isnt something that happens over night, and maybe not for a hundred years, if ever. I believe you just are witnessing what many nations have endured. Growing pains, lessons learned over time, and the realization that no country will ever rise out of the ashes without ethical standards, enforced by the people for the people thru a lawful governing authority with a constitution and written law, and an appropriate justice system. Just a few of the many levels of growth your former homeland must see through. IMHO
Sounds like what you are saying is democracies must evolve - you can't say just invade a nation, take over, and declare demcoracy?
 

Alistar7

Lifer
May 13, 2002
11,983
0
0
Originally posted by: BOBDN
Originally posted by: mastertech01
You can imagine a nation that was anchored into early 20th century dictatorship for decades and suddenly cut loose to face the 21st century and told they are on thier own could and would fall into a trap of corruption for survival. Its not like the USA which won its independence in the 18th century with little technology or modern civilization to overwhelm them from all corners of the earth.

It will take great care and people determined to turn it around into a lawfull and ethical society with a government like you are accustomed to. It isnt something that happens over night, and maybe not for a hundred years, if ever. I believe you just are witnessing what many nations have endured. Growing pains, lessons learned over time, and the realization that no country will ever rise out of the ashes without ethical standards, enforced by the people for the people thru a lawful governing authority with a constitution and written law, and an appropriate justice system. Just a few of the many levels of growth your former homeland must see through. IMHO
Sounds like what you are saying is democracies must evolve - you can't say just invade a nation, take over, and declare demcoracy?
I get the impression the people of Iraq want the right to self rule, as do the Palestinians...... Show me the man who doesnt want to live free.
 

sMiLeYz

Platinum Member
Feb 3, 2003
2,689
0
76
Originally posted by: Alistar7
Originally posted by: BOBDN
Originally posted by: mastertech01
You can imagine a nation that was anchored into early 20th century dictatorship for decades and suddenly cut loose to face the 21st century and told they are on thier own could and would fall into a trap of corruption for survival. Its not like the USA which won its independence in the 18th century with little technology or modern civilization to overwhelm them from all corners of the earth.

It will take great care and people determined to turn it around into a lawfull and ethical society with a government like you are accustomed to. It isnt something that happens over night, and maybe not for a hundred years, if ever. I believe you just are witnessing what many nations have endured. Growing pains, lessons learned over time, and the realization that no country will ever rise out of the ashes without ethical standards, enforced by the people for the people thru a lawful governing authority with a constitution and written law, and an appropriate justice system. Just a few of the many levels of growth your former homeland must see through. IMHO
Sounds like what you are saying is democracies must evolve - you can't say just invade a nation, take over, and declare demcoracy?
I get the impression the people of Iraq want the right to self rule, as do the Palestinians...... Show me the man who doesnt want to live free.
Of course people want to be free, that much is obvious... but Iraqi's sure have a different view of freedom than the US. We view ourselves as a agent of democracy, they view us as a occupying force; just another dictatorship now ran by a white man.

They see themselves under another regime, and thats what matters.
 

tcsenter

Lifer
Sep 7, 2001
17,848
24
81
What makes this even more of a tragedy is that this is not what the country was like. The stories by mom tells me (and my dad used to tell me) are of a vastly different place. Sure there were limited freedoms, but there was order, security and a better lifestyle for almost everyone. A lot people would gladly go back to the communist days if they could.
Of course, the same can be said of many former Eastern Bloc countries.

A fair number of prison inmates become "institutionalized" as well; can't hack it on the outside without someone telling them when to eat and what they'll have or how many times to chew it, telling them when its ok to fart and how loud its supposed to be, making every decision for them so they don't have to think or take any risks or make any decisions except those approved by the Ministry of Cradle-To-Grave Management.

Come to think of it, a lot of people are paralyzed by their own freedom here in the US, too, and fail miserably to manage their own freedoms in a positive or productive way. But it must be even worse in East Germany or Bulgaria, by some order of magnitude.

Oh well, so be it. Can't have a society which attempts to 'protect' the incompetent from their own incompetence at the expense of the freedoms and choices of those who are competent. No thanks! That's the sort of European collectivism about which the founders wrote rather extensively of their disdain.
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: sMiLeYz
Originally posted by: Alistar7
Originally posted by: BOBDN
Originally posted by: mastertech01
You can imagine a nation that was anchored into early 20th century dictatorship for decades and suddenly cut loose to face the 21st century and told they are on thier own could and would fall into a trap of corruption for survival. Its not like the USA which won its independence in the 18th century with little technology or modern civilization to overwhelm them from all corners of the earth.

It will take great care and people determined to turn it around into a lawfull and ethical society with a government like you are accustomed to. It isnt something that happens over night, and maybe not for a hundred years, if ever. I believe you just are witnessing what many nations have endured. Growing pains, lessons learned over time, and the realization that no country will ever rise out of the ashes without ethical standards, enforced by the people for the people thru a lawful governing authority with a constitution and written law, and an appropriate justice system. Just a few of the many levels of growth your former homeland must see through. IMHO
Sounds like what you are saying is democracies must evolve - you can't say just invade a nation, take over, and declare demcoracy?
I get the impression the people of Iraq want the right to self rule, as do the Palestinians...... Show me the man who doesnt want to live free.
Of course people want to be free, that much is obvious... but Iraqi's sure have a different view of freedom than the US. We view ourselves as a agent of democracy, they view us as a occupying force; just another dictatorship now ran by a white man.

They see themselves under another regime, and thats what matters.
You do realize new goverments can not be put in place overnight.

 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
68,206
3,256
126
That's sad, but from what my mother told me(she spent a year in the Ukraine a few years back) it's quite true of many former Soviet Block countries.
 

Martin

Lifer
Jan 15, 2000
29,179
1
81
Could you guys please not hijack my thread? There is no shortage of Iraq related threads, I asure you.


Anyway, today I was talking to an old aquantance and made me wonder whether or not joining the EU will save countries like bulgaria. the laws of western european nations are similar to laws we have here. If those laws were strictly enforced (I don't see that happening, but I guess its possible) perhaps society could change for the better over time....but maybe not.

 

BarneyFife

Diamond Member
Aug 12, 2001
3,878
0
76
My parents are from Greece and I go there for a month every couple of years and what you said is very typical. To get anything done there, you need to bring a wad full of cash. I'm talking about getting a drivers license, visiting a hospital etc... Otherwise, forget it. I can't say that anyone in Greece is actually suffering. Most people eat well and their aren't any homeless. I don't think it has anything to do with different forms of government. Greece was never communist and neither was Italy and it's pretty much the same crap with politics. I don't know about the situation in Bulgaria but I wouldn't mind living in Greece. Nice climate, lots of hot girls, and good food. I'll just remember to bring some extra money wih me if I ever need to acquire a permit or license of some sort.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
68,206
3,256
126
Originally posted by: MartyTheManiak
Could you guys please not hijack my thread? There is no shortage of Iraq related threads, I asure you.


Anyway, today I was talking to an old aquantance and made me wonder whether or not joining the EU will save countries like bulgaria. the laws of western european nations are similar to laws we have here. If those laws were strictly enforced (I don't see that happening, but I guess its possible) perhaps society could change for the better over time....but maybe not.
There's always hope! I think many of them would certainly benefit from being part of the EU, but even that would take some time to turn things around.
 

BarneyFife

Diamond Member
Aug 12, 2001
3,878
0
76
Originally posted by: Alistar7
and he chose Canada, lol, well, at least you will always be protected by the US, where most people looking for a better life usually choose.....
The American dream is a myth. The only people you see coming here are from Asia or Mexico now where they live in dire situations.

 

laserburn

Junior Member
May 28, 2003
20
0
0
Hallo MartyTheManiak,
I?m from Serbia so we are in the same neighborhood right now. My father is a truck driver and he took many trips to Bulgaria and told me stories about unbelievable level of corruption there, especially among custom officers. But don?t blame the people. If Canadian economy would collapse in that way, things would be the same there too. I know it for a fact, because I saw it happen in my country. I was pretty young then but I still clearly remember living in communism. Westerners don?t know that, but life was relatively good in 70?s and early 80?s. People didn?t have certain liberties, but they had free education, medical care, short work hours and excellent job security. Life was pretty god especially in my country, which tried to balance between east and west. After the fall of communism, countries that were closer to Western Europe (like Poland, Slovenia?) attracted foreign investors faster, while Bulgaria had a misfortune of being next to Yugoslavia (which was in a state of civil war). Try not to think bad about Bulgarians, it is their poverty and prolonged state of anarchy that forces them to live like they do. And KEEP your Bulgarian passport, trust me on that. Serbia was in even greater mess than Bulgaria is right now, and I only thought on how to emigrate to Canada or some other country. Today I am actually thinking of staying here. Things are not good here, but they are getting better, little by little. Bulgaria is going to heel slowly, but it is going to take time. The new government seems pretty competent.
BTW, I like your sign.
And few quick references:
Alistar7, people usually choose Canada because of its open door immigration policy. USA has a ?no vacancy? sign on the door.
And people, know that Bulgarian problem is not lack of democracy, but actually lack of money.
 

Alistar7

Lifer
May 13, 2002
11,983
0
0
Originally posted by: BarneyFife
Originally posted by: Alistar7
and he chose Canada, lol, well, at least you will always be protected by the US, where most people looking for a better life usually choose.....
The American dream is a myth. The only people you see coming here are from Asia or Mexico now where they live in dire situations.
sure, we dont have a huge influx of Indian professionals flooding our doors....


The American dream is not a myth, do you think Gates parents told him that when he dropped out of Harvard?
 

Alistar7

Lifer
May 13, 2002
11,983
0
0
Originally posted by: sMiLeYz
Originally posted by: Alistar7
Originally posted by: BOBDN
Originally posted by: mastertech01
You can imagine a nation that was anchored into early 20th century dictatorship for decades and suddenly cut loose to face the 21st century and told they are on thier own could and would fall into a trap of corruption for survival. Its not like the USA which won its independence in the 18th century with little technology or modern civilization to overwhelm them from all corners of the earth.

It will take great care and people determined to turn it around into a lawfull and ethical society with a government like you are accustomed to. It isnt something that happens over night, and maybe not for a hundred years, if ever. I believe you just are witnessing what many nations have endured. Growing pains, lessons learned over time, and the realization that no country will ever rise out of the ashes without ethical standards, enforced by the people for the people thru a lawful governing authority with a constitution and written law, and an appropriate justice system. Just a few of the many levels of growth your former homeland must see through. IMHO
Sounds like what you are saying is democracies must evolve - you can't say just invade a nation, take over, and declare demcoracy?
I get the impression the people of Iraq want the right to self rule, as do the Palestinians...... Show me the man who doesnt want to live free.
Of course people want to be free, that much is obvious... but Iraqi's sure have a different view of freedom than the US. We view ourselves as a agent of democracy, they view us as a occupying force; just another dictatorship now ran by a white man.

They see themselves under another regime, and thats what matters.
You mean one third of the country, the Kurds in the north, who have lived free for 12 years feel like we are now ruling them? or the residents of Mosul, who elected a mayor and city council? Not sure who you are talking about when you say "they", i had not realized you had spoken to all 22,000,000 of "them".....

 

Alistar7

Lifer
May 13, 2002
11,983
0
0
Originally posted by: MartyTheManiak
Could you guys please not hijack my thread? There is no shortage of Iraq related threads, I asure you.


Anyway, today I was talking to an old aquantance and made me wonder whether or not joining the EU will save countries like bulgaria. the laws of western european nations are similar to laws we have here. If those laws were strictly enforced (I don't see that happening, but I guess its possible) perhaps society could change for the better over time....but maybe not.
the EU has over 80,000 pages of laws, just dealing with that will take forever....
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
68,206
3,256
126
Originally posted by: Alistar7
Originally posted by: MartyTheManiak
Could you guys please not hijack my thread? There is no shortage of Iraq related threads, I asure you.


Anyway, today I was talking to an old aquantance and made me wonder whether or not joining the EU will save countries like bulgaria. the laws of western european nations are similar to laws we have here. If those laws were strictly enforced (I don't see that happening, but I guess its possible) perhaps society could change for the better over time....but maybe not.
the EU has over 80,000 pages of laws, just dealing with that will take forever....
Relax dude, US doesn't suck as bad as some places.
 

Phuz

Diamond Member
Jul 15, 2000
4,349
0
0
Thanks for posting that, Marty.

and he chose Canada, lol, well, at least you will always be protected by the US, where most people looking for a better life usually choose.....
Doad.
 

Nitemare

Lifer
Feb 8, 2001
35,469
1
76
Originally posted by: BarneyFife
Originally posted by: Alistar7
and he chose Canada, lol, well, at least you will always be protected by the US, where most people looking for a better life usually choose.....
The American dream is a myth. The only people you see coming here are from Asia or Mexico now where they live in dire situations.
I'd rather have them as they will bust their ass when they get here than the large population of worthless hypocritical Americans who leech off the government and have the nerve to complain about it.

The American Dream is not a myth just something you actually have to work to get, something you will need to strive for and work for. It is nothing that will be handed to you or something that you are owed because you were born in this country
 

rahvin

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
8,475
1
0
Marty,

I have no doubt the country of your birth will recover. It is simply a matter of time. Revolution is never easy. I urge you not to renounce the citizenship because at some point in your lifetime (you are young) you may want to return to the country after it has reformed. Your feelings about it's current situation could only be indication that change will occur. A disgruntled populace eventually will overthrow the current regime.
 

Martin

Lifer
Jan 15, 2000
29,179
1
81
Here are some thoughts & replies:

Alistar7, I don't know why you consider the US to be unique when it comes to immgration. The "American Dream" is not a myth, but it can be realized in any first world country. I don't mean to sound like a clich&eacute;, but my family came to Canada with little money and no friends/relatives to help us out. After several years of hard work we brought a house, 2 cars, nice furniture etc.
Also, you seem to believe (correct me if I am over assuming here) that immigrats "shop around" when they choose where to go. Nothing could be further from the truth. People who immigrate don't really care where they go, as long as its in a first world country. I have a friend here who would do anything to go to France to study, but he doens't have enough money.


Rahvin, the problem lies not only with the goverment (not a regime, since it was democratically elected), but with society. As far as I can tell, the goverment is no more corrupt than the population in general, which is very bad since changing the mindset of poeple will be harder than changing goverment.




To give you guys an idea of who corrupt certain people are, consider what happened on monday. Me and my sister went to the director of the cemetary where my dad was buried to complain about how the shabby treatment we recieved (after paying 1 sum for all the services they provided, we had to pay a bribe to each person involved once more -- grave diggers, priest, choir boys, hearst drivers etc). As it turned out the director is a one of those people that make me think there is hope for the country. He said he's been director for 3 years and he's tried to reform the cemetary to make it much more like western onces (he said he livedin Germany for a number of years, so he's familiar with how western societies work). As a result the people there threatened him with bodily harm, death and even broke his car windows a number of times. He says he brought a number of machines to dig the graves and lower the caskets, yet the workers BROKE them and sold their parts, so that they could show up at a gravesite and refuse to dig until they are paid (which was the case with us). How can there be change with people like that?
At least the guy gave me some hope. He told us he's been fighting these kinds of people for years and now and that he's dedicated to reforming the cemetary to western standards. If he walks the walk they way he talks the talk, and if there are more people like him in charge...perhaps Bulgaria and other countries will evenrually become first world nations..


 

Alistar7

Lifer
May 13, 2002
11,983
0
0
give them a choice, most would choose here.....

I am not saying you cant be successfull anywhere, but our society gives you a great edge and being in this market doesnt hurt either.
 

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