I never heard of James Toback

[shortylickens]

http://www.cnn.com/2017/10/26/enter...k-allegations/?iid=ob_lockedrail_topeditorial

Apparently he's a bastard.
I wonder if ANY of these guys are ever actually gonna see trial.

Cosby managed to avoid it for years and then his lawyers somehow managed to finagle a mistrial and it looks like he's never going back.

 

[pmv]

Very disturbing how many of these cases there are. Many over here as well, including politicians (e.g. Cyril Smith).

It's the sheer scale of their activities that amazes me. It's not just one incident a long time ago, these guys seem to have a compulsion to to do this stuff constantly and it seems like some of them have been getting away with it for decades without it ever coming out.

It's alarming to find the world isn't as one thought it was. What other things go on that nobody talks about?

 

[shortylickens]

Very disturbing how many of these cases there are. Many over here as well, including politicians (e.g. Cyril Smith).

It's the sheer scale of their activities that amazes me. It's not just one incident a long time ago, these guys seem to have a compulsion to to do this stuff constantly and it seems like some of them have been getting away with it for decades without it ever coming out.

It's alarming to find the world isn't as one thought it was. What other things go on that nobody talks about?

Well, to me its not THAT shocking.

I grew up with an abusive angry alcoholic father. After spending lots of time with a shrink I found my brain was traumatized and it developed abnormally, thats a big part of the reason I'm so messed up today.
Wanna hear something sad? There are TONS of kids who grew up with abusive parents and have issues. Fucking TONS.
Many of them can't acknowledge it and just go thru life with all kinds of problems they don't even know have an actual cause.

On other topic: Do you remember when that newspaper found all the priests in Boston who were molesting kids? The worst part was the massive effort the church made to keep covering up this shit for decades. Exposing THAT turned out to be a much bigger deal than just the traumatized kids.

 

[pmv]

Well, to me its not THAT shocking.

I grew up with an abusive angry alcoholic father. After spending lots of time with a shrink I found my brain was traumatized and it developed abnormally, thats a big part of the reason I'm so messed up today.
Wanna hear something sad? There are TONS of kids who grew up with abusive parents and have issues. Fucking TONS.
Many of them can't acknowledge it and just go thru life with all kinds of problems they don't even know have an actual cause.

On other topic: Do you remember when that newspaper found all the priests in Boston who were molesting kids? The worst part was the massive effort the church made to keep covering up this shit for decades. Exposing THAT turned out to be a much bigger deal than just the traumatized kids.

Sorry you had to endure that. Though I do know a _lot_ of people who had abusive parents, and, have known at least one abuser, I could say a lot more about that, it's just that this isn't the kind of forum where I feel much like talking about anything personal.

Nonetheless its the institutional silence around certain prolific offenders that still shocks me. The Catholic church's problems of course extended way beyond Boston, this was going on on a huge scale in Ireland, Australia...it seems to have been the same all over the world. But the Church isn't the only such institution, it turns out.

So many famous figures from my childhood turn out to have been doing this stuff all along, and only now does it come out.

At least once some poeple start talking it maybe becomes easier for others to do so.

 

[Commodus]

This is why the men who screech "innocent until proven guilty!" whenever sexual assault comes up (but curiously, they aren't so vocal with other crimes) drive me up the wall.

Yes, keep an open mind, don't be too quick to presume guilt... but also know that creeps like Toback, Cosby and Weinstein (not to mention countless small-time sexual assaulters) are counting on you to let them off the hook by saying they're technically not guilty. Don't give them that satisfaction. If there's enough public evidence to suggest they probably committed sexual assault, don't act as if they're innocent. A perpetrator's reputation is not more important than the trauma they inflicted on their victims.

 

[bradly1101]

Well, to me its not THAT shocking.

I grew up with an abusive angry alcoholic father. After spending lots of time with a shrink I found my brain was traumatized and it developed abnormally, thats a big part of the reason I'm so messed up today.
Wanna hear something sad? There are TONS of kids who grew up with abusive parents and have issues. Fucking TONS.
Many of them can't acknowledge it and just go thru life with all kinds of problems they don't even know have an actual cause.

On other topic: Do you remember when that newspaper found all the priests in Boston who were molesting kids? The worst part was the massive effort the church made to keep covering up this shit for decades. Exposing THAT turned out to be a much bigger deal than just the traumatized kids.

Yes, awareness of underlying causes is a big step. My father was similar, as was his father before him. I was told at an early age that I was an "unintended" child. Back then, before all these more effective birth control methods, I guess accidental pregnancies were more common, resulting in possible resentment toward children (growing up gay was another avenue of abuse from other kids, not because they knew I wasn't straight, but because I was just a "softer" guy, not willing to literally fight for position like most of my peers). I know a lot of younger parents who are much more loving toward their children.

But how this relates to sexual predation seems complex. Are some predisposed toward seeking approval through sex? Did the lack of respect they received as children translate to seeing others as objects? Or are they geared toward the endorphin-creating pure sexual release, as in sexual addiction to bring light to their dark minds? AND NONE OF THIS EXCUSES THE BEHAVIOR. Whatever it is it's unbelievably widespread. Gang rapes occur in India and Egypt. Some male-dominated societies completely hide their women, while in others women are encouraged to be as sexy as possible. My old workplace required women to wear makeup, pantyhose, and heels - male domination. As I'm typing this I'm sure there are many women being harassed or worse.

Men need to step up and control themselves regardless of their circumstances, desires, and upbringing. The fact that women are more comfortable speaking up and out will help a lot I believe. And it's not just women; I was at a party once in my twenties and a drunk, powerful 6'8" guy (I'm 6'4") pushed me through an open doorway into a bedroom and onto the bed where he tried to force me into God knows what. No matter how hard I tried, I couldn't get away. He only stopped when he realized that there were others able to see through the window. I was kind of in shock, and I didn't even think of reporting it in fear of retaliation. I understand how these creeps get away with it for so long.

 

[bbhaag]

While I can empathize with these women and what they say they went through the article linked to does not provide any evidence beyond an accusation. Accusations are fine but I personally need more evidence than that before I will condemn a person. Our justice system also dictates that accusations alone are not enough to pass judgment.

 

[theeedude]

I mean we have elected a president who openly admitted grabbing women by their genitals, after he has admitted it.

 

[bradly1101]

The Teflon Don.

 

[shortylickens]

While I can empathize with these women and what they say they went through the article linked to does not provide any evidence beyond an accusation. Accusations are fine but I personally need more evidence than that before I will condemn a person. Our justice system also dictates that accusations alone are not enough to pass judgment.

Much like Cosby, there are WAY too many people coming forward for it to all be bullshit or coincidence.

As many accusers as there are, I really want an investigation. I do agree judging these men guilty before trial is very inappropriate. Its bad for them and bad for American justice as a whole.

 

[jackstar7]

The court of public opinion is not beholden to the rules of evidence.

People who suggest that it should be are, at best, naive.

 

[pmv]

Yes, awareness of underlying causes is a big step. My father was similar, as was his father before him. I was told at an early age that I was an "unintended" child. Back then, before all these more effective birth control methods, I guess accidental pregnancies were more common, resulting in possible resentment toward children (growing up gay was another avenue of abuse from other kids, not because they knew I wasn't straight, but because I was just a "softer" guy, not willing to literally fight for position like most of my peers). I know a lot of younger parents who are much more loving toward their children.

But how this relates to sexual predation seems complex. Are some predisposed toward seeking approval through sex? Did the lack of respect they received as children translate to seeing others as objects? Or are they geared toward the endorphin-creating pure sexual release, as in sexual addiction to bring light to their dark minds? AND NONE OF THIS EXCUSES THE BEHAVIOR. Whatever it is it's unbelievably widespread. Gang rapes occur in India and Egypt. Some male-dominated societies completely hide their women, while in others women are encouraged to be as sexy as possible. My old workplace required women to wear makeup, pantyhose, and heels - male domination. As I'm typing this I'm sure there are many women being harassed or worse.

Men need to step up and control themselves regardless of their circumstances, desires, and upbringing. The fact that women are more comfortable speaking up and out will help a lot I believe. And it's not just women; I was at a party once in my twenties and a drunk, powerful 6'8" guy (I'm 6'4") pushed me through an open doorway into a bedroom and onto the bed where he tried to force me into God knows what. No matter how hard I tried, I couldn't get away. He only stopped when he realized that there were others able to see through the window. I was kind of in shock, and I didn't even think of reporting it in fear of retaliation. I understand how these creeps get away with it for so long.

It's really difficult to decide on the dividing line between moral turpitude and psychological dysfunction. To me, some of these guys seems to take predatory behaviour to such a level that its hard not to see it as a kind of insanity. But I'm sure that's letting them off too lightly.

The main thing seems to be the structure in which they operate, that allows them to get away with it for so long. If they'd been stopped right at the start they might have ended up as salvageable people before going too far into the, er, 'dark side', and doing so much damage to others.

There are always going to be bad guys, but the problem, I suppose, are the power imbalances.

 

[pmv]

While I can empathize with these women and what they say they went through the article linked to does not provide any evidence beyond an accusation. Accusations are fine but I personally need more evidence than that before I will condemn a person. Our justice system also dictates that accusations alone are not enough to pass judgment.

But there's a difference between a court of law, and serving on a jury, and being a human being able to make your own judgements about what seems probable. I mean, Stalin and Hitler were never convicted by a court, but I think we can all make our own judgements about them.

In the case of Cosby he's been protected from court verdicts by the time limits on such accusations being heard in court. So what else is there but 'the court of public opinion'?

In the high profile cases it seems to have been made unusually easy by the sheer weight of testimony. The truth seems blindingly obvious in those cases.

It's going to be a lot more painful if its some obscure nobody that you happen to know personally, and just one accuser, where you have to decide who you believe. Quite relieved never to have been in that situation (the only abuser I've known personally was quite obviously a sociopath, I never had a moment's doubt about it).

 

[bradly1101]

There are always going to be bad guys, but the problem, I suppose, are the power imbalances.

Yes, fortunately the pendulum seems to be swinging the right way in some places, but the wrong way in others:

I just caught this disturbing piece last night about how many women are abused in Russia, and their government is making it worse (it's not really sexual harassment, but it speaks to men's perceived power over women).

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/domestic-abuse-is-not-always-criminal-in-russia

• Natalya Feshenko:
  
  When a woman calls the police and says, ‘My husband is killing me,” they respond by saying, ‘Call us when he kills you.”
• Nick Schifrin:
  
  That’s actually what happened last November to 36-year-old Yana Savchuk. She recorded herself calling the local police in a town 200 miles south of Moscow calmly asking for help. In response, the officer — a woman — mocked her. The officer says, “If he kills you, we’ll certainly come to examine the dead body.” 45 minutes later, her boyfriend killed her.

What we do to women. I hang my head low.

 

[Jaskalas]

What we do to women. I hang my head low.

Then we cast out and scorn those who prey on others. Then if our house is ever in order we reach out and encourage our allies to do the same. Then, if an alliance has its act together on the world stage, it can push for other nations to do the same... as a requirement to trade.

There is a path to free women the world over, and it starts right here at home.

 

[bradly1101]

Going back to the female dress code at my previous place of work; both heels and makeup are potentially harmful to women. I've seen many slick TV spots put out by the big oil lobby that say, basically, that there is no need to feel negative about our reliance on oil since petroleum products are in so much, including cosmetics and hair dyes. The FDA is (was) doing what it can, but many ingredients in cosmetics are unregulated. If researched, you find statements like, "In such low quantities (in cosmetics), harmful ingredients are not likely to cause harm in humans." But women use (or are required to use) these products daily over decades of their lives. It is impossible to find definitive answers about other harms in cosmetics (including carcinogens), because what would that say, that cosmetics should be avoided? The horror!

Why is it socially acceptable for men to go gray, but not so much women? Answer: male domination.

I saw Jane Fonda on last night's Graham Norton show. She's turning eighty in December, but looks like she's in her late forties or early fifties. I believe that there is no way she'd be getting all the work coming her way if she had not had all that work done in this male-dominated society. Of course it's her choice, but there's a lot of pressure. They showed a current image of her with her costar from the sixties, Robert Redford, from an upcoming film, and the apparent (but untrue) differences in age are stark, but perfectly socially acceptable.

This true double standard could only occur in a male-dominated society, the source of so much harm, in so many ways, toward women.

 

[IronWing]

So have we figured out who the guy is other than that he's a bastard?

Edit: he wrote Bugsy.

 

[shortylickens]

So have we figured out who the guy is other than that he's a bastard?

Edit: he wrote Bugsy.

in 30 years he's only got 12 credits.
I cant understand why he intimidated so many women.

 

[IronWing]

in 30 years he's only got 12 credits.
I cant understand why he intimidated so many women.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hkx_puJMF3c