I need help with 3D

[Fermion Alpha]

I am interested in getting some type of 3D (stereoscopic vision) setup on my computer. But I have tons of questions about how the technology works and I haven't seen yet a comprehensive article on it. So here it goes. First question, is AMD videocards 3D capable ? and where can I buy the glasses and transmitter. I heard that during this year's CES they announced the support of S3D in Radeon cards. and some company like Bit Cauldron had a booth setup with AMD videocards and 3D. I check Bit Cauldron website and there is nothing for sale there, I can see the products but I can't buy them. I also checked DDD's website and nothing there ether. How do I get 3D on my radeon 5850 ? Now here are some other questions. I have the samsung 22in 120hz monitor that is compatible with Nvidia 3D vision, is that monitor also good for ATI ? Also, why does the monitor has to be 120hz ? people say that we need one image to each eye thats why you need a 120hz refresh rate, which would mean 120 fps, does that mean if my game don't play at 120 fps my 3D will look messed up? For instance Battlefield Bad Company 2 plays on my computer at about 80 FPS and sometimes it deeps to 40 frames. Does that mean 3D will look screwed up on my computer specially when the frame rates drop to 40. Finally, this 2 images rendering business, I heard it takes more resources on your videocard but nobody has talked about how much more it takes. For instance, taking the battlefield Bad Company example, lets say I turn on 3D. Because I am rendering 2x the frames does my fps fall to 20-40 fps? So, for me to get the power of 1 Radeon 5850 I need to have two in crossfire ? or will I only lose like 5 frames (35-75)? I have allot of questions about 3D and I searched google and Anandtech and could find the answer for none of them. So I decided to try the forums now. Please guys help me out, I want to be more educated in the subject, specially if I am going to spend 200 bucks on it.

 

[Seero]

I am interested in getting some type of 3D (stereoscopic vision) setup on my computer. But I have tons of questions about how the technology works and I haven't seen yet a comprehensive article on it. So here it goes. First question, is AMD videocards 3D capable ? and where can I buy the glasses and transmitter. I heard that during this year's CES they announced the support of S3D in Radeon cards. and some company like Bit Cauldron had a booth setup with AMD videocards and 3D. I check Bit Cauldron website and there is nothing for sale there, I can see the products but I can't buy them. I also checked DDD's website and nothing there ether. How do I get 3D on my radeon 5850 ? Now here are some other questions. I have the samsung 22in 120hz monitor that is compatible with Nvidia 3D vision, is that monitor also good for ATI ? Also, why does the monitor has to be 120hz ? people say that we need one image to each eye thats why you need a 120hz refresh rate, which would mean 120 fps, does that mean if my game don't play at 120 fps my 3D will look messed up? For instance Battlefield Bad Company 2 plays on my computer at about 80 FPS and sometimes it deeps to 40 frames. Does that mean 3D will look screwed up on my computer specially when the frame rates drop to 40. Finally, this 2 images rendering business, I heard it takes more resources on your videocard but nobody has talked about how much more it takes. For instance, taking the battlefield Bad Company example, lets say I turn on 3D. Because I am rendering 2x the frames does my fps fall to 20-40 fps? So, for me to get the power of 1 Radeon 5850 I need to have two in crossfire ? or will I only lose like 5 frames (35-75)? I have allot of questions about 3D and I searched google and Anandtech and could find the answer for none of them. So I decided to try the forums now. Please guys help me out, I want to be more educated in the subject, specially if I am going to spend 200 bucks on it.

CES have some 3D glasses that are not video card vendor specific, meaning either Nvidia/ATI can use it, but the problem is they are not out yet.

IZ3D has been out for some time and does 3D with its own set of tools and its not video card dependent, namely its own LCD and glasses, which means you will need another IZ3D 22" LCD for it to work. As to quality, people say Nvidia 3d Vision has less ghosting affect.

If IZ3D and/or Nvidia aren't your cup of tea, then you will need to wait a bit until they sale those glasses and have their driver compatible with games.

A 60 hz Lcd simply means the screen refreshes completely in 1/60 second, 60 times a second. If the screen plays a black/white screen alternatively, at 60 hz you will probably see gray instead of flickering black/white. However, if it is at 30 hz, then you won't see gray, but a flickering black/white.

Now a shutter glasses turns one eye black alternatively at 120hz, twice as fast as 60hz, and therefore user won't even realize it is flickering, just a bit darkened. At the same time, each eye see an independent frame, and your brain will understand those are actually one image instead of 2, and therefore producing 3D images.

The game you play may be running at 5 fps, but your LCD still runs at 120hz, and therefore nothing is messed up, assuming your video card is powerful enough to support your LCD's resolution. The video card doesn't need to redraw the whole screen, just the change, so if the video card is low, then the screen does not change. FPS really doesn't mean Frame per second, but change of Frame per second.

When 3D is on, your FPS drops about 40-60%.

 

[Fermion Alpha]

CES have some 3D glasses that are not video card vendor specific, meaning either Nvidia/ATI can use it, but the problem is they are not out yet.

IZ3D has been out for some time and does 3D with its own set of tools and its not video card dependent, namely its own LCD and glasses, which means you will need another IZ3D 22" LCD for it to work. As to quality, people say Nvidia 3d Vision has less ghosting affect.

If IZ3D and/or Nvidia aren't your cup of tea, then you will need to wait a bit until they sale those glasses and have their driver compatible with games.

A 60 hz Lcd simply means the screen refreshes completely in 1/60 second, 60 times a second. If the screen plays a black/white screen alternatively, at 60 hz you will probably see gray instead of flickering black/white. However, if it is at 30 hz, then you won't see gray, but a flickering black/white.

Now a shutter glasses turns one eye black alternatively at 120hz, twice as fast as 60hz, and therefore user won't even realize it is flickering, just a bit darkened. At the same time, each eye see an independent frame, and your brain will understand those are actually one image instead of 2, and therefore producing 3D images.

The game you play may be running at 5 fps, but your LCD still runs at 120hz, and therefore nothing is messed up, assuming your video card is powerful enough to support your LCD's resolution. The video card doesn't need to redraw the whole screen, just the change, so if the video card is low, then the screen does not change. FPS really doesn't mean Frame per second, but change of Frame per second.

When 3D is on, your FPS drops about 40-60%.

Thank you so much, this is very helpful. I am really surprise at the frame rate drop. 40-60% is allot of resources.

My Setup is:
Phenom II 965 BE running at 3.7Ghz, 4GB 800Mhz dual channel memory, SoundBlaster Fatality pro, and 1 Radeon 5850 Sapphire Toxic running at 770Mhz.
My monitor's native resolution is 1680x1050, thats the res I play all my games at.

What do you think would be the impact on 3D with a crossfire setup? Will I get that performance back ? or Crossfire/SLI has minimum impact on S3D rendering?

I like to play my games at 60fps. I don't think its worth to get 3D if some of my games play at such low fps. I Don't think StartCraft 2 will suffer, but I'm not sure if my Frame rate will stay above 60 with S3D enable on WoW, or Battlefield. Thank you again for the help.

 

[Seero]

Thank you so much, this is very helpful. I am really surprise at the frame rate drop. 40-60% is allot of resources.

My Setup is:
Phenom II 965 BE running at 3.7Ghz, 4GB 800Mhz dual channel memory, SoundBlaster Fatality pro, and 1 Radeon 5850 Sapphire Toxic running at 770Mhz.
My monitor's native resolution is 1680x1050, thats the res I play all my games at.

What do you think would be the impact on 3D with a crossfire setup? Will I get that performance back ? or Crossfire/SLI has minimum impact on S3D rendering?

I like to play my games at 60fps. I don't think its worth to get 3D if some of my games play at such low fps. I Don't think StartCraft 2 will suffer, but I'm not sure if my Frame rate will stay above 60 with S3D enable on WoW, or Battlefield. Thank you again for the help.

I don't think IZ3D support CF or SLI. You should look up DDD instead, but neither support 120hz LCD. I know it sounds ironic but IZ3D only works with its own LCD and DDD only works with their own list of LCDs.

 

[Fermion Alpha]

I am starting to regret getting a ATI card. Nvidia has a really straight forward solution, why can't AMD do the same. as I understand with Nvidia you get any 120Hz monitor and their $199 glass/receiver kit and you got 3D. I wish somebody at Anandtech would wright a comprehensive article on how to get 3D. I got this monitor because I figure if one day I wanted to get 3D, at least I had the monitor taken care off. But now you telling me that thats not the case. I don't think 3D will take off until the industry cleans their stuff up, because its really really confusing right now. If I'm confused and I know about tech, imagine an average gamer that just want to play WoW in 3D. I'm sure that there is a ton of people out there like me that want 3D at home but has no idea how to get it. For instance I got a Aqueous LCD 3 years or 4 years ago that advertised itself as a 120Hz monitor. Turns out its not. it Display things at 120Hz but it won't receive 120Hz signal. so the TV is just a up converter. Ugh. I read the fine print and it says "120Hz Frame Rate Conversion". I suppose its my fault for not looking into the "Conversion" part of the sentence. I hope that my purchase of a 120Hz monitor was not a waste of money too.

 

[Seero]

I am starting to regret getting a ATI card. Nvidia has a really straight forward solution, why can't AMD do the same. as I understand with Nvidia you get any 120Hz monitor and their $199 glass/receiver kit and you got 3D. I wish somebody at Anandtech would wright a comprehensive article on how to get 3D. I got this monitor because I figure if one day I wanted to get 3D, at least I had the monitor taken care off. But now you telling me that thats not the case. I don't think 3D will take off until the industry cleans their stuff up, because its really really confusing right now. If I'm confused and I know about tech, imagine an average gamer that just want to play WoW in 3D. I'm sure that there is a ton of people out there like me that want 3D at home but has no idea how to get it. For instance I got a Aqueous LCD 3 years or 4 years ago that advertised itself as a 120Hz monitor. Turns out its not. it Display things at 120Hz but it won't receive 120Hz signal. so the TV is just a up converter. Ugh. I read the fine print and it says "120Hz Frame Rate Conversion". I suppose its my fault for not looking into the "Conversion" part of the sentence. I hope that my purchase of a 120Hz monitor was not a waste of money too.

As of now, IZ3D, DDD and Nvidia 3D vision are the 3 proprietary solutions to 3D. What you, and public want is a pair of glasses that does the 3D job given any video card and any LCD.

The company, Monster, has announced the release of MonsterVision MAX3D, built based upon Bit Cauldron's 3d technology, which will be a universal shutter glasses for all TVs in September. You should be able to watch 3D TV with this and your 120hz LCD. However, it has nothing to do with your ATI video card as they don't have the middleware. Can ATI utilizes this technology to enable 3D gaming? Yes. Is ATI utilizing this technology? No. Is Bit Cauldron going to built a 3D driver for ATI? No. This is the true meaning of "open".

ATI fanboys bash Nvidia for having their shuttering glasses proprietary only to their own video card, just like PhysX, where in theory it will work for any ATI cards of the same grade. However, no one ever said ATI support 3D, or will produce hardware/software to support 3D by any means. In layman's term, they don't support 3D, they support other companies who will make 3D possible for them. Get it?

ATI Catalyst™ 10.3 Driver support for 3D Stereoscopic glasses

AMD has updated its Direct3D (Quad buffer support) driver to enable 3rd party middleware vendors such as iZ3D to output stereo L/R images at 120 Hz (60 Hz per eye)

That means, it will be easier for 3rd party to write their drivers on top of ATI's driver. Without 3rd party drivers, then no 3D for ATI users. Shall there be any technical difficulties or bugs, it has nothing to do with ATI, send your words to the party who wrote this driver.

It won't be long until someone writes the middleware, and someone will pay for it.