I need advice on a digital camera

[Bat123Man]

I realize someone else posted this exact topic recently, however my needs are slightly different. Price is a concern for me. I have 3 kids 6 and under, and if any of you also have kids, you will know that no matter how careful you are with anything, kids will get to it eventually. So I don't want to blow the 700 bones that the Canon G7 is listed at, although it does look like an amazing camera, but I won't cheap out either. Let's put it at anything under 500 bucks will be considered. Perhaps I'll buy the G7 when the kids are older and less prone to breaking everything I purchase (by the way, was there a G6 and did it have most of the features of the G7 ?).

A few comments :

- The G7 is a 10 Megapixel camera. My past camera (broken by the kids over Christmas) was a Sony 3.3 Megapixel. I almost never shot at the full 3.3, but rather at 1600*1200. Then I would get the shots printed in 4*6 or 5*7. They looked amazing, so I really don't see the need to go much beyond 5 MP max.

- The G7 also has DIGIC III Image Processor with Face Detection Technology. I don't know much about this technology, but is sure sounds good on the Canon page! Did Canon put this into some of their less expensive lines, and is it really as good as the marketing seems to make it out to be?

- The single most important feature is Image Stabilization. I won't consider a model which doesn't have it. I have hundreds upon hundreds of examples taken with my Sony of blurry kids. I would guess 50% of the pics I took ended up deleted with that camera. It was a great camera at the time (DSC-P1), but it was getting very old. I bought it when my daughter was born in 2001.

- It can't be a dSLR, mainly for price (see above), but also because I am not at the point where I will haul around lenses. I want it to be small, but good. It doesn't have to fit inside my ear, but because of the lens size of dSLRs, I don't think I would purchase one. If my wife can fit it in her purse, that is even better. For me, just hanging it in a case off my belt is perfect.

- I see that the G7 advertises that it can be ready to take a pic in 1.4 seconds from when it is off (LCD coming on included). That's great, but not important to me. What is much more important is I can't stand the delay of digital cameras when compared to SLRs. Do you know how many shots of the kids I have missed because the damn camera took so long to take the pic? The faster the better.

My wife has to be able to use it. Huh, the other poster said that too .

So, if you can suggest a model which has all that, I would appreciate it. As you can see, I am biased towards Canon, but that only comes from reading the other thread. Anything other than Sony will do just fine (I object to having been forced to pay nearly double for the same size Memory Stick as other people were paying for Compact Flash, SD, or any other type of media).

Thanks,
BM.

 

[kile22]

I have a Sony H5, it takes great pictures.
Also I like USAphotonation.com, its where mine came from.
I like the Canon S3 IS, too.
If you want simple, I would go with the Konica Minolta Z6 or the Kodak P712. Anything Nikon is going be pretty good. Fujifilms are okay.
Hope this helps.

 

[acegazda]

The canon sd600 probably represents the best price/performance ratio. Check it out.

 

[cparker]

I just wrote this for another thread asking about digital cameras. I think it might be helpful to you. The Nikon D40 is around 500 so it might meet your price range:

If you can go from between 500-600 I'd recommend either a Nikon or a Canon low-end SLR. The Nikon should be the D40 (not the 50). It's the latest model and has gotten some excellent reviews and comes with a great lens. The Canon Digital Rebel XT is slightly more pricey, I've seen them for around 550 at times with the stock lens, which is also excellent. (That's one that I have.) If you haven't tried one, yet, you might want to take either for a "test drive" at some store or maybe someone you know has one. I have several other digicams, including a Canon S3 IS, which is a wonderful camera as well, and is 150 dollars cheaper than the low end SLRs. But if I had to choose just one camera, I'd go with the SLRs. While image stabilization is neat, you will find you might gain 2 F stops or so with it. The digital SLRs have larger sensors and as a result don't have as much "noise" at the higher ISO levels so that, in itself, resluts in something like a 2 f stop advantage (if not 3) and hence, you get the advantage of image stabilization on low end digicams. Where you need image stabilization on an SLR is with telephoto lenses. And with IS they are very pricey. So if you really need a telephoto and don't want to spend much money the S3 IS is a very good choice. But I would take a good look at the Nikon D40 and Canon Rebel XT first. (See http://kenrockwell.com/nikon/d40.htm for a d40 review and other reviews at that site as well as guides to picking cameras)

 

[Bat123Man]

Thanks for that, but I am not interested in a dSLR at this time. Perhaps in the future, but there are some very good reasons I won't be getting one :

1). Price
2). Size, if it is a hassle to bring, I won't always bring it
3). Kids - my children are very young, they break everything they get their hands on.

When they are older, then I will invest in a good dSLR, but not now. Now I just want one my wife can carry in her purse, but which also has IS. Plus I don't need the ultra-high res of dSLRs, I never even used the 3.3 MP on my present camera.

BM.

 

[cparker]

OK, well then just go with the Canon Power Shot SD800 IS. It's small and is currently running for 399 or so. As to the kids, well, you really don't want to have the camera banged around or dropped or the lens smeared with peanut butter/jelly and stuff. If that's your concern you might want to opt for a cheaper Canon without the IS or maybe get one like that (say for 150-175 or so) and keep the little IS guy in your wife's purse. You really won't need IS for normal lighting/flash most of the time unless you have a camera with a long telephoto lens, but that probably wouldn't be in your budget category anyway. IS is great when you are shooting under marginal lighting conditions or with a telephoto. Think of it this way. If you don't get IS you could get an SD600 for around 200 dollars. That's half the price of the 800. And if the kids managed to break it, it would hurt only half as much.

 

[Bill Kunert]

There was a nice Olympus 770(I believe) in the for sale forum recently. 10X optical and 3 or 5 X digital zoom. These are nice cameras and he was wanting ariuund $200. You might check the forums for used cameras. There are some good deals.

 

[Farmer]

I recently purchased an Canon SD630 for my mom, and it is a great little camera. A little too small for my tastes, but has a huge 3" LCD and shoots relatively fast on auto everything (I'll never be as fast as a DSLR, but it's fast enough that at most instances I barely notice the lag difference between it and my D70s). I haven't shot very long exposures with it (i.e., shutter slower than a second), so I don't know how fast it handles those. The picture quality is wonderful for a camera that size (I'd say on par with my old Sony DSC-717, which had amazing picture quality). However, due to its size, its rather difficult to manipulate manual settings quickly, since there are no manual control knobs, and its really uncomfortable to hold (at least in the traditional fashion of holding a camera).

If I were to get a P&S for myself, it would be the Canon A630 or A640 (if you really need that extra 2MP, and unless you want huge prints, you don't). The camera is just a whole lot more comfortable to hold and shoot with (its about an inch longer and a bit thicker, still can be easily manipulated with one hand). It also runs on AA batts, which can be a blessing or a curse, but if you ever go traveling and run out of batts when you really want to shoot, you can get batteries anywhere.

I love the lens on the G7, but I can't stand the ridiculous expense (the D40 kit, while not what you want, can be had for around the same price, and is obviously a much better camera). If you are seriously considering the G7, then you need to ask yourself "Will I be installing an external flash and thus require a hotshoe?" and "Is image stabilization that important?" If the answer is no to both those questions, get yourself an A640 or A620, and save yourself $100-$200 for nearly identical image quality under 99% of shooting conditions.

The bad thing about all these pocket cameras is the unavoidable red eye when you're shooting people with flash, and are usually very, very noisy at higher ISOs (for P&S, 800 would be pretty fast).

 

[Bat123Man]

Hi Farmer,

Thanks for the explanations. I'll look into the A630. The reason I was interested in IS is that kids move a lot. Many of the photos taken on my Sony would have been considered excellent if only one of the kids hadn't been moving. I had thought IS would help in that department (the commercials show people taking pictures while on carnival rides), however from reading other posts on the subject, it looks like IS helps more for either very low light conditions, or shooting with max zoom. Is that true?

I will not be using an external flash.

Thanks,
BM

 

[Farmer]

Bat123Man:

Sorry for the late reply. I'm not exactly sure what IS technology is used in the G70, whether its sensor-based (which is like on the new Pentax DSLR) or lens-based (like Nikon's VR).

Anyway, camera shake (or, your inability to hold the camera perfectly at rest with respect to the ground) alters the light that enters the lens and thus enters the CCD. Under normal or good light conditions, you will be shooting with a shutter speed high enough (like 1/100s) that the natural shaking of your hand is too slow to affect what light is captured: result, you get a good, clean picture with no smudge or blur.

Now, when does blur come into play? I'll go over your two conditions:

Let's say you are in a low light condition (1), and a shutter speed of 1/100 is too fast to capture enough light to have a sufficiently exposed picture. So you slow it down to, say, 1 sec. In 1 second, you hand can move to a variety of positions, altering the light being detected by the CCD: the result is a blurry image. Three ways of combating this: increase light sensitivity (ISO) so that you can shoot with a fast shutter speed and still get the same exposure; con is, at high ISOs, image quality deteriorates with noise, second, is to use a tripod and a remote shutter switch; con is, the extra expense, and you gotta lug all that around and set it up. IS, the third choice, doesn't require anything else, but isn't as effective as a tripod.

Now let's say you are at telephoto zoom, in good light. Now that you are zoomed all the way in, the miniscule shakes and spasms in your hand are magnified by the magnification factor when translated to your image, hence, if your lens is a 3x zoom, your hand may shake to the left 1 inch, but the image moves to the left 3 inches. Again, increasing shutter speed will combat this effect, and IS helps, but to a lesser extent than a tripod.

As for your situation, I don't think IS can do anything to correct shaking that occurs outside of your camera (I may be wrong about this and new IS techs can). What you are talking about is shooting fast-moving objects (some that, I'm afraid to say, SLRs are great at doing). There are two ways to combat this:

1.) Increase shutter speed. The same way that it works for shaking on your parts, it will work for rapid movement on your subject's part. The shutter will only let light in from a very small instant. Given your subject is moving at velocity v, the distance the CCD "sees" and translates to the image is then v(delta)t, (delta)t being your shutter speed. The lower your (delta)t, the less your subject seems to move, or blur over into, in the image.

2.) Well, if you increase shutter speed, not enough light will reach the CCD for a decent picture (i.e., your images will appear dark and underexposed). So, you,

i. Increase CCD sensitivity, telling the CCD to equate brighter pixels to less numbers of detected photons. This is done by adjusting your CCD's ISO setting to something higher.

ii. Increase your aperture size. If you increase the opening of the shutter aperture, even if you increase the shutter speed, photon flux through the aperture will increase, so in the shortened time, the same number of photons will reach the CCD. This done by stopping down your f-stop. However, the lower you make your f-stop (i.e, the wider its open), the less depth perception you'll have in your image; i.e., only things closer to the camera will be in focus (think of going to the optometrist and getting your pupils dilated: everything is super bright, but you can't even see your own hands clearly).

Obviously, you ability to take action-shots will greatly depend on 1.) the "speed" of your lens (i.e., what is the widest it can make the aperture?), 2.) the shutter speed of your camera (how fast can the shutter close on this camera?) and 3.) how well your CCD handles high ISOs (most pockets produce lotsa lotsa noise when shooting high-res high-ISO).

So, in short, I don't know if IS works for fast moving objects, but I do know most cameras have an auto mode for fast moving subjects.

 

[Bat123Man]

Thanks Farmer, that explains a lot. It does make me think that if I go for a camera with IS, even with the increased cost, I will be getting the best "anti-shake" short of a tripod. Since I am not going for magazine-quality shots, but rather show-them-to-gramma quality, I won't be using a tripod. However, it seems obvious to me that I will have a much better chance of getting consistently good shots with IS than without.

Cheers,
BM

 

[cohenfive]

another possibility--canon a710 is....7mp, 6x zoom, is, great image quality, and i think a bargain at about $290 (azon and some others). i may get one to replace the canon s60 i've been using on mtn bike rides and which has been dropped once too often...for me the a710 is the best p&s for the money out there. the h5 and s3 are great also, but are a different size class...

 

[cparker]

Sorry to say, but while the IS will help you with camera shake at slower shutter speeds, what you want to do is to take pictures of kids who move around without blurring. That requires FAST shutter speeds. IS probably won't help you at all there. Plust the p/s cameras you are looking at will have small sensors and will not be very good at high ISOs, which equates to fast shutter speeds, all other things being equal. Flash would compensate, but you don't want to use flash. Your best bet, then, is a DSLR. While it won't be so convenient as to form factor, it will take much better pictures of the kind you are talking about. If you really need small form factor, then get any of the Canons, and don't spend the extra money for IS since it won't help you taking pictures of moving kids in available light. And try to take the pictures in daylight, so you can use low ISO settings at high shutter speeds. As they say, there are no free lunches. Either you get good quality with a bit more bulk, or compromized quality with less bulk.

 

[Bat123Man]

Thanks for all the advice. I went to Henry's to pick up an A630, but then came home with a clearance price A530 for 179 Canadian. I added a 2GB SD card for 49 bucks, and I am all set. At max res, I can now take 1390 pics before my mem stick runs out of room. Obviously I didn't need that much, but at 49 bucks, I wasn't going to bother getting anything less.

The A530 has Digic II, 4x optical zoom, and is a 5 MP camera. It features "Kids and Pets" mode where it automatically bumps up the ISO for kids who can't stop moving.

For info, the A630 features the same 4x optical zoom, the same 640*480 movie rate, the same max ISO rating (800), the same Digic II image processor, and the same battery life expectancy. The only difference is it features a swing out LCD panel, and is 8 MP instead of 5. It also costs 320 bucks. Since I was very unlikely to take pics at any res higher than 5, I opted for the 530. I have already shot 100 pics of the kids (they must be annoyed with me by now), and all images are clear! Very happy with my purchase thus far.

Cheers,
BM

 

[Farmer]

Bat123Man:

Nice pickup on the camera, and great deal too. I'm glad you're enjoying it.