I need a stereo amplifier? 500-1000 watts

[EliteRetard]

Ive been trying to figure out how to setup a house audio system...and I think I finally figured out what I need. Im looking for a dual zone, dual source receiver that can run a 5.1 surround system as well as a whole house audio system (at the same time) which is basic stereo (2 speakers each room, one left and right in ceiling). Id like to be able to get network/internet sound throughout the house. Right now this is the model Im considering for the receiver: http://www.amazon.com/Onkyo-TX-NR609.../dp/B004O0TRD8

Any help or alternative options you might have for the receiver part would be helpfull too. My origional budget was $1,000 for the receiver, amplifier, and 5.1...but it seems the speakers may have to be a later on thing. Im trying to get some quality mid range stuff that will last a very long time even though the demands arent that high. Just want something better than TV speakers, especially so we can hear voices/talking (were all basically hard of hearing/tone deaf) Just doing cable/sat TV, DVD/VHS, and AM/FM radio, reception on radio isnt great here though so thats why Im looking at computer/internet radio options (especially if it easily works with any wifi network).

No consoles or gaming devices, nothing here even has HDMI...but we might like to use the laptop to play pictures/video if possible, not a requirement (its old and VGA only). Theres a small chance that eventually the computer will get upgraded to something digital (with HDMI), and a very small chance that we get a dedicated netbook or something to hook up permanently (probably way to complicated/expensive to do right now)

RECEIVER /\
-------------------
AMPLIFIER \/

Unfortunately anything I have used to try to run the whole house system has fried...Im pretty sure theres to much power draw from the single channel (so I dont want to just plug it into the expensive receiver). What Im having a hard time finding now is some kind of amplifier that can handle the load and yet not burn down the house (dont want to put to much power through those little speakers/wires). It also needs to connect to the reciever (just for the house audio, not the 5.1)

The way this place was setup, they installed 2 speakers in each room (total 8 speakers 4 rooms) as well as a volume knob on the wall (turn it all the way down and it clicks to turn off) then ran all the wires to what looks like a simple splitter. That runs down to where the entertainment room is and we had a wall plate stuck in with 4 connectors for the stereo input. Everything was just hanging out of a hole in the wall, it was also already "pre wired" for the 5.1 so those are hanging out here to, and no idea where those go (gotta figure out where they are in the wall/ceiling).

All the audio/video equipment will be there, including the receiver and amp. I need something that can handle running the entire house all at once (when all the rooms are on, like for entertaining guests ect), or just a single room like somebody just in the office ect. I don't know exactly what all is going on with this system, it was installed before we moved in. I can only find a Leviton label, and searching online I think I might have found the speakers: SGC65-W 60w RMS 8 ohm.

Assuming thats correct, I need an amplifier that can provide like 500 watts RMS (750-1000 peak?) but also only as much as is required by a single room...I dont want all 500watts blowing out a single room. Absolute n00b in the audio area, so I have not the slightest idea how everything connects or works...or if an amp is even what I actually need (it sounds like thats what I need though).

SUMMARY: I need an amp that connects a receiver to a stereo whole house audio system and can run very low power (like a single room low volume) up to 500watts RMS (like all the rooms turned on/up).

Thanks in advance, especially if you read the whole thing
Oh and yes I have googled for stereo amplifiers, I find 1000watt units for $90, and 200watt units for $1300...and all kinds of weird stuff I don't understand. And I have no idea what brands are good ect, thats why Im asking.

 

[Howard]

Receivers include amplification.

 

[vi edit]

I've got a midline Onkyo receiver (RC-180) driving my 5.1 system in my theatre room and another 4 pairs of speakers throughout my house. I have the whole house system running on the "Zone 2" setting going over to a speaker selector that splits out to the speaker pairs. The Zone 2 is only proving 100w per channel. The speaker selector and volume knobs are doing impedance matching to trick the receiver into thinking it's only an 8ohm load. So long as I don't have the volume on the receiver set too high for the zone it won't clip the amp and put it into a fault mode. With all 8 pairs driven it's still loud enough that you can't talk over the volume. You have to shout.

Most of my speakers are just cheapie $40 a pair 8" in ceilings from Monoprice. I've got a set of outdoor speakers out on my deck.

In your situation I'm guessing your volume knobs either are not set for the proper impedance matching or simply do have have that ability. If you pull the volume out of the wall box, does it have jumpers on it?

 

[vi edit]

Oh and for whole house music I can not express enough my undying love for Sonos. I was hesitant before buying given that it was almost $500 for the zone player. But now that I have it, it's easily one of the best $500 gadgets I have *EVER* bought. Such an amazing, functional little box that just flat out works.

 

[alcoholbob]

To get 500W RMS into 8 ohms you would need at 600-700VA transformer, something that size you'd need to put down $1,000 or more for a receiver.

If you are just looking for power amps, a pair of Behringer A500s for $400 will do 250W x 2 into 8 ohms in bridged (mono) mode, or 125W x 2 into 8 ohms per amp.

 

[jtvang125]

Yep, as mentioned the important thing here is impedance matching. If your amp or receiver can only handle 8 ohms it doesn't matter if you have 100 or 1000 watts, it can go into protection or burn out if you go below 8 ohms. Home audio usually are rated at 8 ohms/channel so that's your target.

 

[vi edit]

To get 500W RMS into 8 ohms you would need at 600-700VA transformer, something that size you'd need to put down $1,000 or more for a receiver. If you are just looking for power amps, a pair of Behringer A500s for $400 will do 250W x 2 into 8 ohms in bridged (mono) mode, or 125W x 2 into 8 ohms per amp.

The main thing is that you *don't* need that much power. 10 or 12 watts to an 8" in ceiling speaker is sufficient enough to drive it to decent volumes. It won't be concert levels of volume, but enough to overpower conversations.

 

[EliteRetard]

What? Put that all into english please?

I had a big ass 2 channel stereo receiver (A, B, or A+B) that was rated for like 250watts a channel (8ohm), I hooked the house audio up to one channel and it fried. Tried one of those cheap ass radio jobies with the independant speakers...and it fried.

Clearly to much power is being pulled, 8 speakers being run from a single channel is to much for any device I have tried. To me that seems to imply that I need to provide more power...

Speaker selector? Looks like I just have a basic splitter.
Impedance matching? Clip the amp? I thought you said you didnt have an amp?
Your running 8 speakers on 100watts and you say it works and can get really loud? Then why did running 8 on 250watts fry (not turned up much at all)?

I hadnt thought to check the volume knob, I figured it was just a resistor or something. I pulled it out and the switch actually has a big ass hunk of crap hooked to the back. Theres a Proficient Audio logo on there and looking online its either a VC60i or VCS60, there is some kind of selector switch A, B, C, D and the one I pulled is set to A. I spent quite a bit of time trying to find more info online but no luck. What does that switch do?

Whats Sonos? I already have the audio system installed here, Im trying to make it work properly permanently (Ive got it to work for short periods before it fries things). Actually the old stereo receiver still kinda works...itll click on for just a milisecond of sound then click off.

250wx2 8ohm bridged wtf? I dont understand anything in that post. Your saying I need 2 400$ amps or a single 1000$ one?

As far as I know everything I have is 8 ohms...is there an easy way to know for sure? Im not 100% sure what speakers I have, there is nothing on them. Just a Leviton label on a big ass junction box where all the house wires go...so I assumed it was their speakers (which looking online are 60-120watt 8ohm).

And yeah, I dont really care how much power is being used by the speakers, I just want to provide enough power to them that they stop frying expensive electronics.

 

[EliteRetard]

I typed Sonos into Google and its a wireless speaker thing, is that what you were talking about? Or something else? Their website is utter shit and doesnt explain anything or tell you what theyre really selling...but as far as I can tell from the pictures and such it is indeed some kind of wireless speaker thing. I already have all the speakers and stuff installed.

 

[vi edit]

Sono's sells a couple different devices.

1) "Headless" zone player that you plug into a receiver
2) "Powered" zone player that you plug your own speakers into
3) "Speakered' zone player that is a self contained device with speakers that plays streaming audio

I have option "1" plugged into my receiver. It has access to Pandora, Slacker, Spotify, Rhapsody and I think Last FM. You can control it with your smartphone over a wireless connection in your home. It can also pull MP3 files from a media server.

Basically it's a dedicated streaming device that just works. It doesn't lock up. It doesnt' need reboots. It doesn't drop streaming connections. Ect. It just plays music 24 hours a day if you want it to.

 

[jtvang125]

So you have 8 speakers total. That's 4 per channel if they are hooked up in parallel (daisy-chained). You believe each speaker is 8 ohms so across the 4 speakers the ohms decrease down to 2 ohms. Unless your receiver or amp is some elite model it CAN'T handle 2 ohms and thus will fry if protection doesn't kick in.

Here's what you can do:
1) Wire 2 pairs of speakers in series and connect the 2 pairs in parallel. This gives you 8 ohms.
2) use the special wall plates that will change the ohms
3) Use multiple amps

 

[EliteRetard]

? I dont get the math, its a single stereo channel, all 8 on the same line (they are all connected to the same splitter). I dont know what you mean by series or parallel. How are the ohms reduced, if the signal is being split then the speakers might only be getting 1-2ohms each but would be pulling 8 from the sending device. Or they would all pull 8ohms thus drawing 64 from the device (which sounds like it would fry things).

What the heck is an ohm anyway?

I did just find out the receiver I was origionally looking at doesnt do digital in the second zone, so just radio? Does your Onkyo RC-180 have the analog only limitation? If so, is that why you bought the Sonos? The unit I was lookint at is supposed to support internet and all those streaming services, but I just found out they wont work on the zone 2 (house audio).

I wouldnt mind spending 500$ on the Sonos if it can do what Im try to acomplish, run a 5.1 system as well as the whole house audio and provide radio and streaming music and be able to run both systems at the same time (in case somebody is watching TV and somewhere else they want music ect).

Basically I have $1K to do this...Ive had a very hard time figuring out exactly what I needed. I thought I had finally got it down to a special receiver (dual zone dual source) and amp...but now everybody is saying that wont work?

Is this going to require me to spend half the budget to get a professional out here to tell me how to get things working properly?

 

[EliteRetard]

Actually I bumped into something else while looking up Sonos...Logitech Squeezebox. Its under 300$ and sounds like it does exactly what Sonos does (stream PC/internet music).

I might have to cinsider something like this, if I can figure out the rest of the stuff.

 

[jtvang125]

http://www.bcae1.com/spkrmlti.htm

There's some explanation of series and parallel connection at the top. If you're still having trouble understanding this I recommend asking someone who does to help or hire a professional. I'd hate to spend all that money on expensive equipment and get damaged by an improper installation.

 

[Howard]

What the heck is an ohm anyway?

You can call someone in to fix your problem or you can spend a week or two getting up to speed. Which do you prefer?

 

[Howard]

Well... read this anyway:

The sensitivity of a speaker is the Sound Pressure Level that it produces at an arbitrary distance, typically on-axis (right in front of the speaker) and at any given power level, typically 2.83 volts or 1 W. These power levels, 2.83 V and 1 W, are equivalent if the impedance (electrical load) of the speaker is 8 ohms, which is one of the several popular impedances.

To increase the SPL, which in turn increases loudness, you need to send more power. SPL and loudness are not the same but they are somewhat proportional. The rules of thumb are:

1 dB change in SPL is the smallest noticeable change in loudness
10 dB change in SPL is approximately a doubling of loudness
10 dB change in SPL requires approximately 10 times the power input

Speakers are generally considered voltage drive systems, so the power equation is:

P = V^2/R

To double the power input, the voltage must go up by a factor of root(2), or 1.414, if resistance R remains the same. If, however, R changes, then two things happen.

1) The input power changes in proportion to the load, e.g. if you move from an 8 ohm load to a 4 ohm load, if the amplifier is voltage drive (which 99% or more are, due to their low output impedance) then you get twice as much power for the same voltage. This is why many amps are rated at 100W at 8 ohms, 200W at 4 ohms, 400W (or maybe a little less) at 2 ohms.

2) More importantly, in your case, the current flowing through the load can be found with this equation:

I = V/R

Meaning that I (current) is proportional to V and inversely proportional to R. For example, if R drops by a factor of 2, an increase of current by a factor of 2 will be caused.

Moving on: when you have multiple loads, the way you electrically connect them determines the magnitude of that load. You can look up series/parallel connections by yourself, but just remember that the worst case scenario for an amp is when the load is very low. By paralleling eight speakers, each at a nominal 8 ohm impedance, you will get a combined impedance as low as 1 ohm nominal, going as low as 0.5 ohm at certain frequencies depending on the speaker.

The reason why this is bad is because the power output of an amplifiers is limited usually by both voltage and current. The maximum output voltage is determined, for most amplifiers, by the voltage output of the power transformer in the power supply. A popular voltage of transformer, for example, might be 35V-0-35V, which will give a maximum voltage output of:

35 * root(2) - 1.7V = 47.8V minus a bit for ripple and other small factors

However, a transformer comes in different sizes, even for the same voltage rating. For a 35V-0-35V, you might have a 160VA size, a 250VA size, or even a 500VA size. The VA determines the maximum output current unless the output transistors become the bottleneck, which is normally not the case - but is the case for you, since the effective impedance is so low.

Therefore, what's happening in your scenario is that because of the low, low impedance you are getting from wiring all those speakers in parallel, you are not able to send enough voltage to the speakers to get them loud because the output transistors in your amplifier(s) are being overloaded from excess current. For a well-designed amp with overcurrent protection, this is not an issue since it just kicks out. For an amp without overcurrent protection, you usually get smoke.

 

[Howard]

Now, let's say you didn't want to rewire the speakers. Here's how much power you would need:

*Assume average 95 dB SPL output at 1m, speaker sensitivity 85 dB @ 2.83 V/1m
*Assume impedance = approx 0.75 ohm

Required voltage increase = (95 dB - 85 dB) = 10 dB
Voltage increase converted to a non-log number: 10 log (10 dB) = 10

Required voltage = 10 * 2.83 V = 28.3 V

Required current => V = IR, I = V/R, I = 28.3 V/0.75 ohm = 37.7 amps

That's almost 10 times more current than most medium-sized amplifiers can deliver, but anyway, you would need an amp rated at LEAST 37.7*28.3 ~= 1000 W, but since most amplifiers this size would have maximum voltage outputs of ~120V, you'd need (skipping more calculations) about 5000W for this to work.

http://labgruppen.com/products/plm_series_touring/ -> the PL10000Q can do only 34 amps per channel...

 

[JSt0rm]

What he needs is multiple amps for each location

http://www.rane.com/ma4.html

Stack them in a rack

Put this on the wall

http://www.rane.com/ma4.html#gpm1_4

 

[JSt0rm]

so you need 2 of those amps...

 

[JSt0rm]

buy this man and you got 6 of those speakers done

http://www.ebay.com/itm/6-Channel-A...769?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item45ff3f5011

*also I just want to say they are/were expecting you to have a professional install done. You still can but I cant be responsible if you bork this thing. If you want to do it on the cheap thats fine but it will require lots of Google and possibly a solder iron.

 

[kornphlake]

it's impossible for me to recommend anything with the amount of info the OP has provided, the installed speakers could be 70v for all I know, which is entirely outside the realm of a typical consumer type amp or receiver.

OP needs to get a friend who understands audio equipment to figure out what is actually installed and how it's wired then come back with more info, or hire someone to figure it out and install the appropriate equipment.

 

[JSt0rm]

yeah im surprised that they actually installed speakers already.

 

[Plugers]

? I dont get the math, its a single stereo channel, all 8 on the same line (they are all connected to the same splitter).

Can you see this "splitter" in the basement, or wherever it terminates? Can you take a pic of it? Are all the speakers generally the same? Can you pull a couple out, look at the magnet sticker and take a picture?

If you can see the "splitter" you will need to separate the zones onto their own channel to reduce the load on the amp/receiver.

Is THIS the splitter?

 

[EliteRetard]

"You can call someone in to fix your problem or you can spend a week or two getting up to speed. Which do you prefer?"

Question is do you guys want to spend a week teaching me?
Lots to read...might take me a while.

Ill see if I can post pictures, all the wires for the house come to one box in the master closet (phone internet audio ect) and thats where I saw the Leviton symbol.

From what I recall, the splitter is even more basic than that...but Ill have to go pull everything open again. I only have a 1MP cell phone camera, will that suffice or do I need high res shots (I can probably procure a better camera somewhere). I guess Ill see what they look like...

 

[EliteRetard]

yeah im surprised that they actually installed speakers already.

Yeah this house was kinda strange...its in a new development area where you buy the lot and they build the house kinda thing. Well somebody ordered this house or something but the builders went bankrupt right before it was finished and nobody ended up moving in and the house sat for a few years untill we bought it (at almost half the price of the other homes here). There were some issues, like the molding was cut and laid in place but not attached and there were some weird wiring issues, missing all the window screens (and no blinds, but I don't know if that comes with a new home normally), and other minor bits unfinished or rushed (like tubing in the wall for the TV connections that you can't actually feed wire through). I call it the half ass house.

There was no information or anything left here, it was just figure it out as you go. The house audio was all installed including the speakers and I saw the wires (they all had tags) for a 5.1 system but no speakers installed for that. The house audio actually worked for a little while just fine with the stereo reciver I had, but as I said it fried. Tried some other radio thing to see what the issue might be and that fried too. Thats why I assumed I simply wasn't providing enough power to run everything.