I need a advice

RLGL

Golden Member
Jan 8, 2013
1,471
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Buy from local. If you must buy on line go see the car, drive the car and have the car inspected by a dealership.
 

mindless1

Diamond Member
Aug 11, 2001
4,713
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If that is $22K US dollars, and depending on your market, it may be asking too much (not enough negotiating room) for a 2012 Volkswagen with over 50K miles, especially the Touareg which has a fairly low 2.5/5 reliability score (average is 3.8/5) and higher than average repair costs. The words Money Pit come to mind.

So... Triple No.
 

BonzaiDuck

Lifer
Jun 30, 2004
13,906
664
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Yes -- following mindless1's train of thought -- why do you want that particular make and model crossover SUV?

I suggest to you either of these -- not this particular model year, specifically, but perhaps a pre-owned, low-mileage earlier version:

Toyota 4Runner 2020

Subaru Forester 2020


If you were to purchase either of these in a 2012 reincarnation, you could expect many to be racking up 90,000 miles. Look for one with lower mileage. Certainly -- check it out, run it for a test drive -- do your own best mechanical inspection. See that everything works. Look at the oil, the engine coolant, the transmission fluid if automatic. Ideally before, but more likely afterward, have a mechanic check it out and make note of anything damaged, worn, or closer to its end of life-cycle. Budget the money for repair of those items.

Personally, if I were looking to replace my 95 Trooper, I would probably opt for a 2012 or 2013 4Runner or Forester. I cannot hide my personal interest, which might bias my suggestions.

My Viet-American smog-test man, so refined that he has a huge portrait of artist Ai Wei Wei on his garage wall, says that the 4Runner and its other Toyota SUV sister models are the most reliable: "You only need to change the oil . . . that's it!"

Others I know personally tout the Subaru. Surely, the dog commercials are cute. But I knew people in the late 70s who sported Subaru longevity for their wagons. Longevity and safety are their two main sales pitches. People I know today attest to high-mileage robustness at 170,000+ miles and still going.
 

ondma

Senior member
Mar 18, 2018
524
100
76
Seems outrageously overpriced. Yes, the car is loaded, but for a 7 or eight year old car, from a company with spotty reliability, I would not touch it at that price. For 22k, or a few thousand more, depending on equipment, you could get a brand new Forester, Kia Sportage, Nissan Rogue, or similar with a full warranty and all the latest safety equipment. If navigation is important to you, look for a car with Android Auto (most have it now), you can integrate google maps into the entertainment touch screen. I also would very highly recommend adaptive cruise control. Think it is standard on the Forester, and both the CRV and RAV 4, although they are a bit more pricey than the Forester/Kia/Rogue.
 

BonzaiDuck

Lifer
Jun 30, 2004
13,906
664
126
I think the OP lives somewhere in Holland, if he considers using that seller. I don't see why they wouldn't have all the models I mentioned and the ones you cited available in Europe. Prices? Trade-in value? That may vary.
 

mindless1

Diamond Member
Aug 11, 2001
4,713
280
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For 22k, or a few thousand more, depending on equipment, you could get a brand new Forester, Kia Sportage, Nissan Rogue, or similar with a full warranty and all the latest safety equipment
Your definition of few and mine must be different. For used, I prefer vehicles that don't have "all the latest" because that usually means maximum repair costs later on. I'd rather have mature tech that has proven itself and minimal systems that need OEM parts, which tend to cost an arm and a leg.

If those features are worth the cost, so be it, but suggesting it's near $22K? That's not right, it will add up in cost.

Nothing new here, there is no free lunch.
 

BonzaiDuck

Lifer
Jun 30, 2004
13,906
664
126
Your definition of few and mine must be different. For used, I prefer vehicles that don't have "all the latest" because that usually means maximum repair costs later on. I'd rather have mature tech that has proven itself and minimal systems that need OEM parts, which tend to cost an arm and a leg.

If those features are worth the cost, so be it, but suggesting it's near $22K? That's not right, it will add up in cost.

Nothing new here, there is no free lunch.
My biggest concern overall is the End of the Internal Combustion Technology Era.

I have a doctor who can afford a new Tesla. If I'm going to get a pre-owned Tesla, I want a model and year with the tech-bugs ironed out of it. But no more cheap cars for me, even if I might be too old to drive in 10 or 15 years. Why buy a recent model Forester or whatever, when this technology may be headed to the junk-heap in fewer years than we'd otherwise anticipate?

And that's another factor -- my age. Why invest in a new or even more recent automobile to the tune of $15K to $35K if you're only going to drive it 3,000 miles per year?

I'm still "learning stuff" about my '95 Trooper. This has been watershed growth for me, having left the car in the hands of an honest mechanic for 17 years. If I need some . . camera system and dashboard LED monitor to feel "modern", I'll install it myself.

But first, I'm changing the hoses and flushing the coolant. . . .
 

ondma

Senior member
Mar 18, 2018
524
100
76
Your definition of few and mine must be different. For used, I prefer vehicles that don't have "all the latest" because that usually means maximum repair costs later on. I'd rather have mature tech that has proven itself and minimal systems that need OEM parts, which tend to cost an arm and a leg.

If those features are worth the cost, so be it, but suggesting it's near $22K? That's not right, it will add up in cost.

Nothing new here, there is no free lunch.
I am talking about prices in the US in US dollars, because that is where I live.
The nearest Kia dealer has 10 Sportages listed under 24,000 dollars, internet price. One might be able to get another thousand or so off that for the final price. Those are all front wheel drive. They have four all wheel drive models under 25,000 dollars.

I dont know what *your* definition of "a few" is, but an extra 2 or 3 thousand dollars out of 22,000 certainly fits that definition to me. The Sportage even has a 5 year, 60,000 mile bumper to bumper warranty.
 

mindless1

Diamond Member
Aug 11, 2001
4,713
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^ Fair enough, I was thinking a Sportage was an equivalent sized vehicle instead of a lifted little car.
 

mindless1

Diamond Member
Aug 11, 2001
4,713
280
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My biggest concern overall is the End of the Internal Combustion Technology Era.

I have a doctor who can afford a new Tesla. If I'm going to get a pre-owned Tesla, I want a model and year with the tech-bugs ironed out of it. But no more cheap cars for me, even if I might be too old to drive in 10 or 15 years. Why buy a recent model Forester or whatever, when this technology may be headed to the junk-heap in fewer years than we'd otherwise anticipate?
Highly unlikely to happen as soon as you suppose. EIA just released an estimate that EV's will only reach 25% of sales by 2050.

It really depends though, on a breakthrough in better battery tech, both better and cheaper, but then there is still the power grid infrastructure which will take decades by itself.

And that's another factor -- my age. Why invest in a new or even more recent automobile to the tune of $15K to $35K if you're only going to drive it 3,000 miles per year?
1) Because it's more reliable. The older you get, the more and more important it may become to not get stranded whether you end up having a medical condition, or just poor tolerance to heat or cold (or ice slippage hazard), or getting robbed or worse. All kinds of unexpected things can happen on a >25 year old vehicle like a control arm bolt rusting through and you lose a wheel on a curve on the expressway doing 70 MPH, or one of other dozens of parts critical to safe vehicle operation.

2) Because the older you get, the less willing and/or capable you will be to do repairs. Right now you are picking the low hanging fruit, doing the easier repairs and maintenance items. What about an engine or tranny rebuild? How much is it reasonable to pay someone else to fix a vehicle with a book value around $1000? Maybe you are willing to do anything and everything to repair it, but that has to be weighed as just one of several factors in how long to keep an aging vehicle.

3) Even if you DIY, as there become fewer and fewer fellow owners, there becomes less and less peer support, and fewer and fewer mechanics that are familiar with them. Some shops simply turn away 25+ year old vehicles. Others "have a go at it" and you wish they never touched it because you still have the problem and new problems too.

4) Some texting teenager may plow into and total it while you're minding your own business sitting at a stop light or crossing an intersection. This not only means you can't count on it lasting forever, it also means that the older and more frail you become, the more important crash safety tech becomes. The same injury that lays up a teenager in the hospital for weeks, can cripple or kill someone over 65. High riding, full frame old SUVs just aren't particularly safe vehicles unless the main metric is survivability in a crash with a smaller vehicle, but today everyone is getting larger SUVs and trucks so odds are, you will take more bodily damage than the other guy in an accident.

5) You just want a change of pace. Eventually your door, dash, headliner, console, seat, hatch, etc etc etc will discolor and warp and get brittle and break, and the rattles and squeaks will get worse, and the radio will start to get static. The paint will fail and rust will set in, and the rims will corrode away, and the fasteners will break when you try to remove them on a repair, fuel lines rust out, ABS goes out, and a thousand other little things to the point where you just want to move on.

Where would one get the parts to do a rebuild of a '95 Trooper anyway? The new parts sources will dry up, at least decent parts instead of Chinese clone junk, and junkyard parts will be 25+ years old. It's not impossible to keep one on the road but you may reach a point where you'd rather be doing something else.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for keeping an older vehicle as a spare, non-daily-driver (or for the utility of hauling or towing things a car can't), running till it becomes too unreliable, unsafe, or expensive, but it's not something you can really depend on long term.
 
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mindless1

Diamond Member
Aug 11, 2001
4,713
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^ That site is pretty much worthless if it shows a reliability score of 100/100 for m/y 2011-2015. It tells me that at best, they had an insufficient sample size and shouldn't have shown any data, and that such a small sample size must mean they have a very small sample size for m/y 2004-2010 too, or else that 100 score wouldn't have brought the 2004-2010 score of 38, up so much to 50.

Further their whole concept is a joke because where they get their data, tends to be the worse condition vehicles on earth (besides being scrapped in a junkyard already lol) and not at all representative of the average specimen.

WHERE DOES YOUR DATA COME FROM?

Our data is provided by a partnership with a national network of used car auctions
Basically the guy thinks he can defend that huge problem by stating:

SO THE DATA IS FROM USED CAR AUCTIONS? WHAT IF YOU’RE JUST GETTING CRUMMY VEHICLES THAT PEOPLE DUMP OFF, WON’T THAT SKEW THE DATA?

We add thousands of new vehicles to our database every week, and while it’s certainly possible that someone could send a “lemon” to auction, the volume of vehicles being processed, and the standardized methods used to assess the vehicles, helps us protect against one or two bad owners throwing off our numbers.
Nope, if you pile a lot of manure on top of manure, it's just a bigger pile of manure, not a better smelling pile, and yet it's contrary to the evidence that if there are so many thousands of vehicles, there's no way a Tourareg would have scored 100/100. Funny thing is, it's most likely auction houses burying their head in the sand and saying "we don't know about any problems, all our vehicles are PERFECT", lol. Auctions are a dumping ground for vehicles nobody feels they can sell for profit, with rare exceptions like theft recovery that's already had an insurance payout, or that very rare repo where the person couldn't afford to pay on their loan yet took perfect care of the vehicle? Not very common, especially on vehicles 5+ years old.

Ultimately if the data was good, it wouldn't be so at odds with other sources, for example:

- https://repairpal.com/reliability/volkswagen/touareg "The Volkswagen Touareg Reliability Rating is 2.5 out of 5.0, which ranks it 25th out of 26 for midsize SUVs... Average Midsize SUV: 4.0"

- https://www.motortrend.com/cars/volkswagen/touareg/ "Overall Rating: 2.5 of 5 - Rating based on 2017 Model". The 2017 is the same generation as 2012, just 5 years more refinement.


On the other hand, it's your money. Maybe you REALLY like them and that makes it worth the extra effort to maintain and cost to repair. It happens (but usually with something a bit more exciting than a stock configuration SUV).
 
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mindless1

Diamond Member
Aug 11, 2001
4,713
280
126
I think the OP lives somewhere in Holland, if he considers using that seller. I don't see why they wouldn't have all the models I mentioned and the ones you cited available in Europe.
It does appear to be Holland, but that's Holland Michigan, not Europe. This means we have a fair idea of the US value, which is about $13K Kelly Blue Book, who tends to put their estimates on the high side. Edmunds is probably down around $11K. Even if you add a couple thousand dealer markup, that's nowhere near $22K.
 

BonzaiDuck

Lifer
Jun 30, 2004
13,906
664
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Well, this is the problem we face, as opposed to the routine monthly hemorrhage of car payments and full comprehensive, or the opportunity cost loss for paying cash for a new car.

My fleet of Civics grew from an opportunity to buy used ones for less than $1,000 so I could fix them up. One of them had been meticulously maintained, with low-mileage engine, new clutch-plate and throw-out bearing, good suspension and decent tires for about $250.

$10,000 + seems just like a hefty piece of change, even in today's economy. Some people might borrow it on credit card balance transfer loan, as opposed to making a savings withdrawal. $20,000 might buy a good automobile in great condition, but ideally you would want to pull it from savings, and you'd want to budget some money for near-term repairs.

With a new car and its drive-train warranty, the owner has nothing more to do than drive it and make regular service appointments based on the maker's recommendation of timelines.

The lower the price for the acceptable ride you can buy, the easier it makes your choices. Or maybe you have a 15-car garage with Ferraris and Beamers and Alfa Romeos. Then it's certainly not any major decision with implications. But the rest of us are always apprehensive of the risk for buying a used car.

The millionaire I know says buy three years behind the current model year. Can you visualize the probability distributions and expected value of outlays? Because that's what you'd want to do.
 

desy

Diamond Member
Jan 13, 2000
5,203
24
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- https://repairpal.com/reliability/volkswagen/touareg "The Volkswagen Touareg Reliability Rating is 2.5 out of 5.0, which ranks it 25th out of 26 for midsize SUVs... Average Midsize SUV: 4.0"

Repair pal use cost as its major driver, That's VARIABLE, I took that into consideration I am sure its cheaper to have a VW in Holland repaired than North America

- https://www.motortrend.com/cars/volkswagen/touareg/ "Overall Rating: 2.5 of 5 - Rating based on 2017 Model". The 2017 is the same generation as 2012, just 5 years more refinement.

From this review
For a consumer who wants a midsize, two-row premium SUV but without the large premium price, the Volkswagen Touareg should be on your list. Known for its high-quality interior, good visibility, and impressive towing capability, this SUV sticks to a solid formula that will work for a select type of buyer.

See PREMIUM which the site I used compared it to other PREMIUM cars, you don't compare it to plain jan Highlanders which is what Repair Pal wants to do

I much rather know how a vehicle fairs after hundreds of thousands of miles than CR how it 'feels' and initial quality surveys after 3 months
 

mindless1

Diamond Member
Aug 11, 2001
4,713
280
126
Don't ask if you don't want the truth.

If you can't afford a new luxury vehicle, the worst choice is trying to live above your pay grade by buying something old enough that its worry-free days are over and what remains are its higher failure rate, high expense repair years.

"Premium" is nonsense. Someone who wants premium buys a brand new state of the art vehicle.

You should adjust your preferences closer to your budget and stop wasting our time.

If you want that vehicle, buy it. Someone will help you fix it when it fails, but $$$$

Why do I get the feeling that this is spam, that you work for the dealer listing this at double the fair market value?

Don't get me wrong, if you have a very high aptitude and experience repairing VW's, along with the specialized tools, it could make more sense, but then you wouldn't have asked and would only pay half the asking price.
 
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BonzaiDuck

Lifer
Jun 30, 2004
13,906
664
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Don't ask if you don't want the truth.

If you can't afford a new luxury vehicle, the worst choice is trying to live above your pay grade by buying something old enough that its worry-free days are over and what remains are its higher failure rate, high expense repair years.

"Premium" is nonsense. Someone who wants premium buys a brand new state of the art vehicle.

You should adjust your preferences closer to your budget and stop wasting our time.

If you want that vehicle, buy it. Someone will help you fix it when it fails, but $$$$

Why do I get the feeling that this is spam, that you work for the dealer listing this at double the fair market value?

Don't get me wrong, if you have a very high aptitude and experience repairing VW's, along with the specialized tools, it could make more sense, but then you wouldn't have asked and would only pay half the asking price.
Actually, I mildly disagree with part of your first paragraph, or what might seem to be its implications.

I know a former comrade from high-school (class of '65) who was running a Ford Thunderbird in nearly restored condition during the '70s. He always had to live on a tight budget. He bought a new Dodge Colt in 1983, and drove it for 30 years. Then, he succumbed to a "new car" philosophy, arguing that you "couldn't take it with you" in later life, so "get a new one". But he could only afford a 2013 Corolla -- a good car, lots of features, bells and whistles compared to a throw-away unit like the Colt. And he had to finance about 70% of the sticker price he paid.

Myself, I ran a fleet of '79 Civics -- some of them souped up a bit, fed by junkyard lucky-finds like Magnesium Accord wheels, accord brakes and 5-speed trannies. But the Colt and the Civic were designed to be throwaways for the mainstream vehicle consumer.

I also knew some folks who would buy 4-year-old Beamers or used Mercedes Turbo-Diesels. So then, I wandered into the experience with two successive used Isuzu Troopers. The first of those, an '87, I might still be driving today but for a dingy college girl ditz talking to her veterinarian on her cell-phone about her damn cat so that she wasn't paying attention to her driving, and totaled that Trooper. I could've killed the b**** in two ways: first, as a result of the accident if I hadn't swerved; second -- because I wanted to give her the dirt nap for totaling my Trooper.

But the second one -- which I'm still driving -- was a fantastic discovery of luxury car features, ruggedness and durability. I paid $8,500 for it as a six-year-old used vehicle with 96,000 miles. I was counting on the engine, and I was right. Other parts will begin to die after a 90,000 mile threshold. If the original owner had replaced the timing belt as ordered after 60,000 miles, you would count on replacing it at 120,000, and count your lucky stars if you avoided engine damage at 140,000. So you can buy a pre-owned luxury vehicle for the right price, but you should have a budget of anticipated repairs for it.

If the car was built well, if the manufacturer insisted on a goal of giving you more for your money and the car's MSRP, you may still save a fortune going through the post-100,000-mile repair cycle. That is, you might live within a Dodge Colt budget, but have a great vehicle that meets some luxury and reliability criteria -- at least for the year when it was built.

Take for instance my friend's Corolla. Corollas have been known to last for 30 years. But if you choose to buy and trade in a Corolla every six years, you will spend at least $30,000 to $40,000 over 18 years, and the insurance may cost you $10,000 more over that time than a used car's accumulated premiums. Excluding my own negligence and mistakes, my old Trooper -- including the initial amount I paid for it, cost me about $20,000 over 18 years, so that it is totally restored as of today with a prospect of another ten trouble-free years for my annual mileage.

I suppose I should go test-drive a car of recent model-year vintage, to see if I'm missing out on "Star-Trek 21st century future" features. But to me, the main concern is whether it passes the biannual smog-test. If I want "LED backup monitor" mirror replacement, or on-dash GPS, or some driver-side Vacu-Jack that wicks your willie and wipes it with a fi-fi -- nice and tidy -- I can install those things myself.

I don't want a damn car that drives itself. And I'll leave the Vacu-Jack at home.
 

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