i make good money. why do i feel that others think they are entitled to it?

[BlahBlahYouToo]

To the OP here's how I look at it. You are only seeing a very small slice and in a very narrow minded view set.

I am also middle class. I make more than the average. I got a degree and do well. There are things I resent, and there are things I realize are practical.

Take things like roads, fire, police, schools, and other items that our "collective" tax dollar pay for. These all used to be at one point in time privatized. It was a mess. It didn't work to well. For example:

If you were paying for a fire department, but your neighbor wasn't and his house caught on fire then the fire department wouldn't put it out. But like most fires, eventually it would spread and your house might be next to catch on fire. Once it did, then the fire department would try to put out your house fire. However, that doesn't change the fact your house still received damage. Damage it wouldn't have received had the fire department put the fire out in your neighbors house before it spread. This actually did happen all over America. at one point. Communities would normally form fire brigades instead of relying on paid people to do the job. Now we got communal fire departments.


Also, you are not living in a shelter, eating off a food line, and requiring daily medicines you can not afford currently. However, that can all change in an instant. The stock market crashes where you lose everything. Or you get in a car wreck that was your fault because something mechanical went wrong in your car before you fixed it. Then you get massive hospital bills. Or you get divorced and the wife manages to take everything because she's fucking the lawyer for payment. Or maybe a combination of bad luck befalls you. It has happened to plenty of good people. When that happens, what do you do? What happens when friends you once knew shun you, because now you are the guy with no house, no car, and no job? What do you do then? Many of your taxes go toward helping you out in this instance. When I got laid off for several months, I was glad I could collect unemployment. Sure, you maybe extremely lucky through the rest of your life and never need to use the social services your tax dollars pay for. If so, good for you. However, if at any time you do need it, then you will most definitely be glad it's there.

Now what do I resent? I resent my tax money going to stupid shit like bailing out big businesses. I was pissed when credit card companies, the automotive industry, and many banks were given my money because they have been stupidly greedy. I resent when people "live" off the welfare state. People that can move out of free housing, can get an education, can work a job, and can try to reach higher than they currently can go but do not. These people I resent. They need to be kicked to the curb and taken off the social welfare teet. The people going for 4+ kids for the free food, tax money, and other breaks while they sit around all day watching Oprah and playing WoW while overfeeding their kids to obesity on free food need to be sent to prison.

On the flip side, I also resent those people in reality making millions a year, but only paying themselves 20K a year on paper to get the same benefits of someone actually only making 20K a year also need to be kicked to the curb or put in jail.

The difference between the OP and me is I see the valid needs of where my tax money goes. Yah, it would be nice to keep every penny I earn for myself, but I know doing so my life would not be as well off as it is now.

i see no difference.
where did i say i didn't want to pay taxes?

 

[nonlnear]

Blah blah blah blah. I just posted that what I personally consider Rich is not ever having to worry about money and from you I get a pseudo moralistic diatribe in return. I don't resent them, I wish I had the means, smarts and do all to be like them,even if it just fell into their laps from being born to those who had the means, smarts and do all .

Did I state a single wish or desire? (Did you quote the wrong post accidentally? ) I stated nothing but acceptance for the consequences of my own choices. Responsibility always does have a way of sounding moralistic to people who embrace its implicit denial.

I wish for nothing that I am unable to obtain for myself, and envy no man's earned wealth or stature. Now that which was created by non consensual coercion or deception I hold to be pure evil and resent bitterly. (Yes, including every single instance of corporate welfare - and trust me I resent that much more than any handouts to the poor.) That may resemble envy but it's not the same.

 

[HumblePie]

i see no difference.
where did i say i didn't want to pay taxes?

Your original post reads as if you resent paying anything. That you feel upset and rage at being "penalized" for making money. The way you stipulate "penalize" as it alludes to taxation is how your original post comes across sounding whiny, angst ridden, and pathetic. This is possibly some of the reasons the following posts which are against your original sentiment seem to be far to the other side.

If your original intention was something more akin to the post I made, well all good then. If you are in agreement more clearly defined lines, and not some general "everyone is out to get me" sort of bullshit then I apologize for calling you out on it.

But fact of the matter, your original post sounded like some 15 year kid getting his first pay check and wondering who the fuck is FICA and what the fuck happened to his "monies."

 

[CycloWizard]

yeah yeah... i know your going to say if there is no profit, there is no motivation for creativity or progress. But you are wrong... progress comes as a result of necessity, not profit.

I keep reading this crap on this forum. Can anyone here tell me that they have spent $30k to patent something out of necessity? If progress is a necessity, why aren't these people at the bottom of the barrel progressing, since you claim it is necessary for them to do so?

 

[nonlnear]

progress comes as a result of necessity, not profit.

Could you please define necessity devoid of any economic framework please? If not, then please keep this mystical claptrap to yourself.

 

[BlahBlahYouToo]

Sorry OP, I reread your post twice and really tried to feel sorry for you.

But it still sounded like your a whinny little bitch with an entitlement attitude

i didn't ask for anyone to feel sorry for me so it's ok.

entitlement? how so? because you think that my attitude is that i studied and worked hard so therefore i deserve to make money?
sorry, that's not at all how i think. there's no guarantees in life, that if you do x, you get y.
but i do believe that you reap what you sow. someone who works harder, should and probably will be better off than one who doesn't. it doesn't always happen this way, but more often than not, it does.

i actually feel quickly fortunate to be where i am today. like everyone, i've had some tough breaks in life, and i've also had some go my way.
but i do feel someone who is educated to make good choices in life will be able to make their own luck.

if i were to lose my "cushy job" tomorrow, i'll be down but i'll live. i won't blame the system or cry to the govt and demand that they provide me a job or financial support. i understand that that's life.
that's why i've built up 12 months living expenses. that's why i've continued to study and branch out to different areas within my field to make myself more marketable and make it easier for myself to find a job.

compared to someone in the UAW who feels that they're entitled to their $28/hr job that can easily be replaced by anyone, or even a monkey. when the plant goes belly up like NUMMI, they're crying outrage. meanwhile, they're the ones who've destroyed the plant and GM from the inside. they have no real skills, yet they continue to demand increased wages and better benefits.

 

[VashHT]

i see no difference.
where did i say i didn't want to pay taxes?

If you're not complaining about taxes then what are you complaining about? Do you really think they're going to drain your bank account and give it to poor people or something?

I don't understand people like you at all, I started off making 60k a year right out of school and I'm not afraid of my money being stolen and given to the poor.

 

[Red Dawn]

Did I state a single wish or desire? (Did you quote the wrong post accidentally? ) I stated nothing but acceptance for the consequences of my own choices. Responsibility always does have a way of sounding moralistic to people who embrace its implicit denial.

I wish for nothing that I am unable to obtain for myself, and envy no man's earned wealth or stature. Now that which was created by non consensual coercion or deception I hold to be pure evil and resent bitterly. (Yes, including every single instance of corporate welfare - and trust me I resent that much more than any handouts to the poor.) That may resemble envy but it's not the same.

Good for you. Now what does that have to do with my personal definition of what Rich is?

 

[nonlnear]

Good for you. Now what does that have to do with my personal definition of what Rich is?

In my first reply I pointed out that your definition has merit, but only in a mystical sense. There are penniless vagrants who are rich by your definition, and in that sense I agree 100%. My "moralizing diatribe" was simply intended to point out that your definition does not translate reliably into any kind of economic definition of rich - which seemed to be what the context of the discussion was aimed at. If you never intended it to have implications about economics then we may very well agree on every underlying issue. believe it or not! I just happened to wax philosophical when that wasn't what was on your mind at the time.

 

[HumblePie]

Well said. Very well said.

And if you liked that, then you'll love this!

I was fairly upset when those "stimulus" hand outs were proposed and given by Bush (idiot) and continued by Obama (also idiot). I was then doubly pissed by Bush and his tax cuts at the end of his term to increase his abysmal popularity (idiot again). I was still pissed as Obama continued to let those same tax cuts continue on schedule (also idiot move).

 

[Deudalus]

We'll refund your money as soon as you pay back all of that money you leeched from us. Free public education for 12 years of grade school means you owe us over $100,000. If you went to a public university, you owe us an additional $20,000 for every year you attended.

Once that's all paid back, we'll talk

Ok, I paid that much back in the past two years without breaking a sweat.

Do I get to stop paying taxes now?

 

[Moonbeam]

Nobody has to. People choose to worry about money, typically out of self-interest. Your definition has merit, but only as a zen riddle - or joke.

Nonsense. Consider the sparrow. It toils not, neither does it want. So too will our Father in Heaven provide for the faithful, eh?

In self hate there is nothing but poverty even for the rich, but in self knowledge there is nothing but endless wealth even for a slave.

 

[Deudalus]

Nope. Their taxes paid their own education and your taxes pay your education.

Most people don't even get that far. They get the free education and free public roads and police and fire department and they never pay it back because their income (and taxes) are too low to pay it back. It sucks that you're paying a shit load of taxes, but you should feel fortunate that you managed to beat the odds.

This is the problem with you commies, socialists, and generally libs.

Its not free. I hear a lot of you lib types saying "why not have free healthcare" and I say because its not fucking free.

There's no such thing as free public roads, police, fire department, and all that.

Its probably free TO you.

But it definitely isn't free FROM me.

 

[sao123]

Could you please define necessity devoid of any economic framework please? If not, then please keep this mystical claptrap to yourself.

Consider progress from necessity:
People die of cancer. We need a cure. Therefore research will be conducted to find it.

We need a way to harvest our grain crops faster. therefore the combine was created.

We need a weapon to defeat the japanese in WWII, thus the atomic bomb was created.

Consider progress from greed/profit:
Sales from our flagship coffee pot are dropping, we need a new innovative idea: Lets put cheap clocks & radios on it, and double the price.

Quick, we need an idea to make our printer sales more profitable: How about we put a microchip in our printers so they will only accept cartridges made by us, and will detect if a user tries to refill it.

How do we sell more madden games? Well, lets turn off all the old ones after a year, and we'll change all the names to current players and sell the new on at full price again.

or my personal favorite:
Microsoft: Lets take all the software you used to be able to buy out of the box and own, and well make you pay to rent to use it every month. Its the same product, it just costs more.


Profit driven innovation just fails hard.

 

[nonlnear]

Nonsense. Consider the sparrow. It toils not, neither does it want. So too will our Father in Heaven provide for the faithful, eh?

In self that there is nothing but poverty even for the rich, but in self knowledge there is nothing but endless wealth even for a slave.

Wow. Could there have been a louder WHOOOOOOOSH?

The entire point of what I was saying was pretty much exactly Matthew 6:25-33. The embrace of worry (in finances as in general) is a choice. It is simply a choice that most people deny ever having made.

 

[sao123]

i didn't ask for anyone to feel sorry for me so it's ok.

compared to someone in the UAW who feels that they're entitled to their $28/hr job that can easily be replaced by anyone, or even a monkey. when the plant goes belly up like NUMMI, they're crying outrage. meanwhile, they're the ones who've destroyed the plant and GM from the inside. they have no real skills, yet they continue to demand increased wages and better benefits.

the people who can be replaced by moneys are the CEO's and upper managers. the plant can coninute to run for decades with nothing but workers. eliminate all the workers, and you have no production. the ones who ruined GM, are the ones who focus solely on profits and stockholders. Plus you have the benefit of eliminating several million dollars worth of salary and perks, by cutting all the management, and voila, the company can actually make a profit.

 

[GuitarDaddy]

i didn't ask for anyone to feel sorry for me so it's ok.

entitlement? how so? because you think that my attitude is that i studied and worked hard so therefore i deserve to make money?
sorry, that's not at all how i think. there's no guarantees in life, that if you do x, you get y.
but i do believe that you reap what you sow. someone who works harder, should and probably will be better off than one who doesn't. it doesn't always happen this way, but more often than not, it does.

i actually feel quickly fortunate to be where i am today. like everyone, i've had some tough breaks in life, and i've also had some go my way.
but i do feel someone who is educated to make good choices in life will be able to make their own luck.

if i were to lose my "cushy job" tomorrow, i'll be down but i'll live. i won't blame the system or cry to the govt and demand that they provide me a job or financial support. i understand that that's life.
that's why i've built up 12 months living expenses. that's why i've continued to study and branch out to different areas within my field to make myself more marketable and make it easier for myself to find a job.

compared to someone in the UAW who feels that they're entitled to their $28/hr job that can easily be replaced by anyone, or even a monkey. when the plant goes belly up like NUMMI, they're crying outrage. meanwhile, they're the ones who've destroyed the plant and GM from the inside. they have no real skills, yet they continue to demand increased wages and better benefits.

I'm right with you up to the part where you start ranting and raving about UAW this or welfare handout recepients that blah, blah, blah. Just makes it sound like somebody else got a handout that you didn't get and your pissed. The evil government took your tax dollars and gave them to some lazy welfare slacker and bailed out GM Self righteous much?

 

[brencat]

It sucks that you're paying a shit load of taxes, but you should feel fortunate that you managed to beat the odds.

He didn't "beat the odds." He sacrificed when others were goofing off, worked harder than the average bear, and was motivated in the face of adversity. Luck -- you might suggest. But what is luck? Luck in my opinion is recognizing opportunity when it presents itself, which it often does to those who lay an effective foundation beforehand.

 

[Bowfinger]

This is the problem with you commies, socialists, and generally libs.

Its not free. I hear a lot of you lib types saying "why not have free healthcare" and I say because its not fucking free.

There's no such thing as free public roads, police, fire department, and all that.

Its probably free TO you.

But it definitely isn't free FROM me.

If you'd bother to step away from your moronic talking points* and actually read his words you'd find that's essentially what he said. No, of course it's not free. The taxes we pay help provide the extraordinary resources that are key to giving Americans the opportunity to succeed ... and pay taxes. It is the circle of prosperity.



*Hint - anyone who spews such slurs as "commie" and "socialist" is almost certainly a deluded, clueless idiot who can't see past his partisan indoctrination. It's one of the first cues I look for to determine whether a person is likely to have anything intelligent to say. You failed.

 

[brencat]

You have a choice - a society with a few owning most things and a lot of poor people, or a more egalitarian society where the rich are less rich and most have more.

Some of the rich want the first, they always have. Others - Buffet, Gates, Soros and others - have a better view.

Actually Craig I've never really thought about your first point that way. I would argue many people, myself included, want success based on merit -- motivated from an early age, disciplined and temperate in our emotions, excellent grades, goal-oriented, etc. should result in a successful career with a bit of luck. Some rich people are rich because of inheritance but many have come from hard work and humble beginnings. I am better off than most, but I attribute that to the groundwork I laid as a child and young adult and the sense of discipline my parents instilled in me, even though I am from very middle class upbringing. I never think much about the society you describe -- one where the rich own most everything, because my view is that if it's based (mostly) on merit, then it is justified no matter the outcome.

Now I'm not naive enough to believe it always works that way, but I don't want to return to the punative high marginal tax rates of the mid-20th century either, which is what I'm getting the sense is that the Libs/Dems, if given the chance, would like to start us back toward.

 

[nonlnear]

Consider progress from necessity:
People die of cancer. We need a cure. Therefore research will be conducted to find it.
We need a way to harvest our grain crops faster. therefore the combine was created.

You didn't explain how this necessity you are alluding to is framed in non-economic terms. In fact, the limited extent to which you explained these needs was actually a primordial form of economic reasoning.

We need a weapon to defeat the japanese in WWII, thus the atomic bomb was created.

This is probably the only one that a strong case could bne made for having been conjured up through a process that was largely insulated from economic forces. Ironic that it's probably the one "need" that anti-market people decry most passionately. That's some irony that I suspect will still go unnoticed by many even after being explicitly pointed out.

Consider progress from greed/profit:

Here we have to be careful... Most non profits should not be significantly differentiated from profit seeking firms. They are still selling a product (good feelings), they are jsut doing so using a different paradigm from firms that seek to disburse profits directly to their shareholders. The framework of the decision making is still purely economic. It requries the consent of buyers (donors) to mobilize resources to the achievement of the intended goal.

Sales from our flagship coffee pot are dropping, we need a new innovative idea: Lets put cheap clocks & radios on it, and double the price.

Quick, we need an idea to make our printer sales more profitable: How about we put a microchip in our printers so they will only accept cartridges made by us, and will detect if a user tries to refill it.

How do we sell more madden games? Well, lets turn off all the old ones after a year, and we'll change all the names to current players and sell the new on at full price again.

or my personal favorite:
Microsoft: Lets take all the software you used to be able to buy out of the box and own, and well make you pay to rent to use it every month. Its the same product, it just costs more.

Sounds like you are very happy with the fact that you can choose not to support those companies. Imagine if you didn't have that option but were forced to support an organization whose goals you disagreed with!

Profit driven innovation just fails hard.

Wait, you just cherry picked a list of innovations which fail, blithely ignoring the ocean of incredibly successful profit motivated innovations that made those few distasteful ones possible: the ships that carry the coffee, the engines that power them, the cars that drive you to the overpriced cafe, the computer you run the "bad" software on . Not to mention the fact that profit actually motivated many work arounds for the printer chip issue. But carry on...

There are two kinds of transaction in the world: voluntary and involuntary. Voluntary transactions are those in which both parties' lives are improved by the exchange. That inevitably produces profit. It also clearly makes the world a better place because the two parties are both happier than they were before and nobody is worse off. Profit! Involuntary transactions involve one party forcing another to surrender their resources or freedom without consent. One party may profit while the other definitely loses. This is the nature of every mandatory government action. (Yes, this includes corporate welfare. I do not make the moronic claim that all corporate profit is good, because a large portion of corporate profit is generated by state induced coercion.) There is a very limited need for some coercive mandates, but I haven't found a compelling argument for coercion beyond that which is strictly required to protect freedom of conscience. I'm open to ideas though!

 

[WHAMPOM]

so the taxes my parents paid didn't contribute towards my education right?
and the taxes i'm paying now (single, no kids) aren't going to my local schools right?

WOW!! Did not know your circumstances.

 

[Mani]

Anyway to answer your original question on why you think people feel they are entitled to your money, I would pose a couple things.
1. You are somewhat paranoid and delusional (don't mean this as an insult, I'm dead serious) - you may even want to seek help if this affects your quality of life.
2. If you truly are making good money and have a comfortable life you should probably be focused on that and not other people. (again, serious advice)

 

[Gonad the Barbarian]

How about all the fees get slipped into nearly every transaction one makes these days? Or slap unnecessary services onto just the ones you want? Or just flat out sell you a inadequate product? Do you get as mad at these companies that think they are entitled to your money? I see that as a far greater problem than taxes. People are not exercising their responsibilities as consumers, companies are deceiving customers and colluding together to offer no real alternative, with the only choice consumers are largely being left with is to transact and get dicked or not transact at all.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

fast forward to today where i have a cushy job that pays fairly well, but i believe i earned it. the hard work from previous years paid off.

however, when i come into p&n and read threads, i can't help but feel that many think i should be penalized for my work ethic. that somehow the rewards that i am now reaping should be distributed to the less fortunate.

First off, we have to ask, how much of the wealth that you have been able to enjoy is the result of government policies that decrease the prices off the goods and services that you purchase?

In other words, is it possible that if we had better economic policies that you might have to pay more money to purchase something while also paying the laborers who created that product more money for it so that they can have a higher standard of living?

For example, a pair of shoes might be 20% less expensive because it is made in China at the expense of having jobs in the U.S. Might you thus have a higher standard of living and more purchasing power than if we manufactured shoes in the U.S.?

I am saying that Global Labor Arbitrage benefits and harms different Americans differently. If you have an upper middle class white collar job then it benefits you at the expense of other Americans because you are still being paid well while being able to enjoy less expensive goods and services--at the expense of other Americans whose standard of living is being averaged out with that of the third world.

when i look back and think, what were they doing when i was taking the bus that takes me to the store where i worked after a full day of school? hanging out, maybe playing ball, at the pool hall, possibly up to no good. who knows...
all i question is why i have to fork out more money to support them and their bad behavior?

while i'm paying a sh*t ton of taxes, they're not just being unproductive, they're being the opposite by leeching off gov't funds that i contribute to.
yet the gov't feels this is fine, and not only that, they want to take even more from me now?

I think we all share that sentiment. However, for all of the thugs and low-lifes, there are also hard-working Americans who are out-of-work and even college-educated Americans who are unemployed and underemployed-and-involuntarily-out-of-field, many of whom have suffered career loss.

I suggest that you thank your good fortune and hope that the layoff axe does not strike you next.

something is not right here...

i'd rather choose where my money goes, rather than having it go to someone who's on welfare for life but perfectly able to work and provide for themselves.

Millions of Americans DO want to provide for themselves, but they cannot find anything better than poverty wage jobs? Have you read the newspapers lately?