I hope GM successfully sues the news outlets for slander.

[phucheneh]

Keep in mind, now, that I genuinely dislike GM and generally have no reason to be sympathetic toward them.

But holy hell, the news reporting over this ignition switch recall is getting absurd. It's almost like (try to look shocked) they have done absolutely no research into the subject. Here's a list of the things that immediately went through my mind while watching an 'expose' on the evening news:

1) Uh, so you're all up in arms over this ignition switch issue, but you have not and continue to not say a peep about the power steering recall on the exact same vehicle? The one where they had issues with what was essentially a starter motor jammed into the side of the column to create ghetto electric power steering? You know, where the steering could become extremely erratic, and even completely lock up? Not a similar issue?

2) Wait, so...SOME Chevy Cobalts had faulty ignition switches? LOL. Every GM between like 2000-2005, at the least, had a 'faulty ignition switch.' They are well known for going bad, to include the key not turning and/or coming out of the switch while running, and any problem inbetween. Not to mention the associated PassKey issues on those cars.

3) Oh, so I'm supposed to weep for this girl who wrecked her Cobalt and died because the key physically turned off while driving. Assumably, it turned all the way to the off position and fell out, as that's the only situation where I can see someone wrecking the car and not mocking them for it (locked steering). You know, like the car full of people that died because no one could figure out how to pull a floor mat out from under a gas pedal. Yeah, I have no sympathy for them.

But...hmmm...I wonder what may have caused her car to turn off? Her car with the safety issue that was already known about, but she drove it anyway...just to be specific. Is the ignition cylinder in a Cobalt spring-loaded to return to the 'off' position as random? No? Huh. Then I guess it must have been...

$10 says her keyring was not only that heavy, but it probably didn't even have any other keys on it. Just Hello Kitty keychains and various other bits of garbage. I'd have to check to be sure, but I want to say that the owner's manual for any modern car tells you not to have all that crap on your keyring. If not...I bet they'll start putting it in there.

Cliff notes: The news is aggravating, Hello Kitty is deadly, and I continue to have no sympathy for idiots who are allowed to operate motor vehicles.

 

[Jimzz]

Many of those cases the cars were off road and alcohol was involved as well.

That and there has to be more to this as the same part number is used in other GM cars but they don't have the same problem. My 2009 CTS has the same key tumbler.

 

[Ferzerp]

You've missed the point. The issue isn't that the key turns off causing a wreck. The issue is, when people are wrecking, the key can get jostled out of the run position before the airbag deploys, disabling the airbag, so they wreck without the benefit of any airbags and are far more likely to die.

 

[master_shake_]

how did the key turn off while in drive??

every fucking chevy i have worked on makes you keep the key in the accy position while in neutral...

wait so the key in the dash in my 2000 alero could shut off any minute?

and its been 14 years and not one problem?

YOU DON'T SAY!

 

[phucheneh]

You've missed the point. The issue isn't that the key turns off causing a wreck. The issue is, when people are wrecking, the key can get jostled out of the run position before the airbag deploys, disabling the airbag, so they wreck without the benefit of any airbags and are far more likely to die.

If that is the point, then indeed I did. However, it doesn't REALLY do a whole lot to change my griping points.

Perhaps that is why I didn't see a thread on this recall, which I expected...I did see something about GM and airbags but didn't connect it.

There is a wrinkle, though: everything I've ever been taught about SRS systems is that they will try to deploy, even upon loss of ignition power during an accident. But TBQH, the only in-depth training on the subject that I've had was on Volvos. They may function differently. Or maybe I was just lied to. My understanding has always been that if you are in a parked car with the ignition off, even with a seat belt buckled or something else that indicates your presence, nothing will deploy...of course, even with the car running, deployment depends upon parameters that are unlikely to be met in a non-moving car. Case in point, it is not uncommon for a car at a stop light to be struck from behind with no deployment (frontal deployment would be useless in that situation), but be hit hard enough to be slammed into the car in front of it, at which point frontal bags may deploy.

Anyway...OTOH...if you are at speed and ignition power is lost, the SRS should have enough backup power to do its calculations and energize the squibs. So it sounds like the news is still, well, not news. They should be hounding GM over a programming fault, if anything. Not ignition cylinders.

 

[phucheneh]

how did the key turn off while in drive??

Another relevant question, for sure. No car with a traditional ignition switch will let you turn key all the way back without the car in park. I do a shitload of alignments, and can attest that I have never seen a car fully power down, or lock the steering, with the key turned as far back as it will go in the neutral position. [edit: the same is true in all other gear positions, just to clarify]

I've heard nothing of this relating to the shift interlock. Doesn't mean that it's NOT, of course, because, you know...terrible news reporting.

 

[master_shake_]

at the same time every car manufacturer should have recalls on ignitions because of stupid people.

every car turns off when you move the key back in drive

no car allows the key to come out steering to lock and keys to fall on the floor in any gear besides park and reverse in 5 speed alero and grand ams.

 

[master_shake_]

and ya the srs system will deploy anytime the key is turned off until i think 15 minutes after ignition circuit being off

 

[phucheneh]

and ya the srs system will deploy anytime the key is turned off until i think 15 minutes after ignition circuit being off

I've been reading more and there is at least once instance that clearly states one of these cars was found, post-collision, to have the key in the accessory position and no deployed airbags.

And similar to most of my other thoughts here, the first thing through my head was not 'oh no, that car was clearly broken!'

It was...'um, they don't seem to mention if the air bags should have deployed.'

I have seen plenty of situations where people were confused, bewildered, and even angered because they were in an accident and their air bags 'didn't work.' They were offered no fat settlements, and did not make it to the evening news. Why? Because the SRS (or SIR, as GM calls it) system did not deem it appropriate to deploy the bags. It is VERY possible to have a fatality in an accident with no air bag deployment, and have it be no fault of the carmaker at all. Air bags are not magic, and are only supposed to be deployed when they will help.

Unsurprisingly, I cannot find an article that mentions whether or not seat belt pretensioners were fired. That would very much be the smoking gun here. Lack of deployment would still not be concrete proof of no function of the car's safety system...but definite deployment would be complete exoneration, IMO.

 

[master_shake_]

i wonder if there was an issue with the maintenance of the car?

what year was her car?

 

[nerp]

Are you just skimming headlines? Blame the media? Riiiight. GM didn't bother fixing a major problem they knew was a problem. And the problem was shitty design and their lazy ass solution was a failure and morally questionable. There's a reason GM isn't out there defending itself, but instead, initiating one long giant mea culpa.

 

[unokitty]

Keep in mind, now, that I genuinely dislike GM and generally have no reason to be sympathetic toward them.
...

Cliff notes: The news is aggravating, Hello Kitty is deadly, and I continue to have no sympathy for idiots who are allowed to operate motor vehicles.

Given the adversarial nature of the US judicial system, I don't expect the truth to be forthcoming anytime soon... if at all.

Only clear winners here are the lawyers...

Bob Hilliard, one of the lawyers who filed the complaint yesterday in federal court in Corpus Christi, Texas, said he seeks to recover $6 billion to $10 billion for the lost value of cars affected by the recall. The suit is based on claims GM concealed the defects and the “diminution in value” of the owners’ vehicles, and not deaths resulting from crashes when the engines stopped because keys came loose.

Meanwhile, Automotive News reports on trial lawyers smelling blood in the water. Litigators are looking to line up clients that have been affected by the recall, with one lawyer even saying he was planning to challenge post-bankruptcy GM's immunity to issues that happened before a federal bailout.

Not good news for GM.

Uno

 

[SparkyJJO]

The lawyers need to go crawl in a hole and die.

 

[master_shake_]

Are you just skimming headlines? Blame the media? Riiiight. GM didn't bother fixing a major problem they knew was a problem. And the problem was shitty design and their lazy ass solution was a failure and morally questionable. There's a reason GM isn't out there defending itself, but instead, initiating one long giant mea culpa.

wanna play a fun game?

go out to your car start it, put it in drive, hold your foot on the brake... try to turn the car off and pull the key out.

i don't care what car you have heres whats going to happen car shuts off, and the key won't come out.

every car does it and no car allows the key to fall out.

pointless recall is pointless

 

[monkeydelmagico]

I view the whole thing as a buying opportunity for anyone interested in a GM vehicle. The crappy 1st quarter sales coupled with headline news will leave Chevy lots full of inventory.

The only way it could get even better is another round of cash for clunkers.

As for suing the news outlets....won't happen. Nothing the news has said is outright falsehood. Also have to prove damages. If Tesla couldn't win against Top Gear then GM has no chance. Besides, GM has done enough damage to themselves by allowing the issue(s) to stagnate in bureaucratic hell.

 

[mmntech]

2) Wait, so...SOME Chevy Cobalts had faulty ignition switches? LOL. Every GM between like 2000-2005, at the least, had a 'faulty ignition switch.' They are well known for going bad, to include the key not turning and/or coming out of the switch while running, and any problem inbetween. Not to mention the associated PassKey issues on those cars.

I've driven more Chevy Cobalts than any decent man has any business driving. They all had faulty ignition. You used to have to jiggle the keys to get it to turn. These were the second gen, not affected by the recall. So the problem was never really fixed. The Cobalt/G5 was just an awful car on so many fronts. Used to call them the turd on wheels. We were all glad when the company finally sold them and replaced them with Fiestas.

I agree that the news is blowing this way out of proportion. Much like they did with Toyota and the unintended acceleration. GM's problem though is they'll opt for lower quality parts to save a couple bucks. Which is why you tend to see the same problems crop up in the same spots over and over again. Toyota and Honda have proven that a reputation for reliability will put more money in the bank than saving a couple bucks on ignitions will.

 

[Pacfanweb]

The idea of an ignition key physically turning itself off and falling out is about as ludicrous as the old "sudden acceleration" issues that the old Audi 5000 had years ago.

I remember the spot on either 60 minutes or 20/20 or one of those shows on the Audi. Some preacher's wife (IIRC) started up the car, put it in gear and then pushed the accelerator and drove it through the garage door with their small child caught between the car and the door, killing the child.

Swore up and down that she had her foot on the brake....and it is absolutely impossible, but she will go to her grave thinking that.

If anyone actually thinks that a key physically turned itself off and they lost a loved one because of it, emotion will never allow them to believe different.

 

[tortillasoup]

the problem wasn't with the keys turning and falling out but with the keys turning from the ON position to the accessory position which would turn off the airbag.

 

[Pulsar]

wanna play a fun game?

go out to your car start it, put it in drive, hold your foot on the brake... try to turn the car off and pull the key out.

i don't care what car you have heres whats going to happen car shuts off, and the key won't come out.

every car does it and no car allows the key to fall out.

pointless recall is pointless

You seem to be the one without a point. GM knows they screwed up and aren't denying it. They are spending $300,000,000 (at last count) on the recall. They have data showing they've known for quite a long time. Plus the government is after them, and there are numerous deaths attributed to the problem.

Your anecdotal 'well it didn't happen to me' stuff is about as illogical as it gets. Learn some basic statistics. If the government didn't have enough evidence to put GM over a barrel GM wouldn't be doing what they're doing.

It's alot like the Toyota folks who are still talking about floor mats. You do understand that problems were found in the Toyota car programming and that there is now a criminal investigation ongoing into Toyota covering up facts, right?

Next will have some tinfoil hatter waving around the Mcdonalds Hot Coffee case.

These are the companies that people regulary talk about spending millions on lobbying who can always get their way with the government. If the problems were fake or were able to be 'disappeared' you can bet your ass GM and Toyota wouldn't be in trouble.

 

[darkswordsman17]

You seem to be the one without a point. GM knows they screwed up and aren't denying it. They are spending $300,000,000 (at last count) on the recall. They have data showing they've known for quite a long time. Plus the government is after them, and there are numerous deaths attributed to the problem.

Your anecdotal 'well it didn't happen to me' stuff is about as illogical as it gets. Learn some basic statistics. If the government didn't have enough evidence to put GM over a barrel GM wouldn't be doing what they're doing.

It's alot like the Toyota folks who are still talking about floor mats. You do understand that problems were found in the Toyota car programming and that there is now a criminal investigation ongoing into Toyota covering up facts, right?

Next will have some tinfoil hatter waving around the Mcdonalds Hot Coffee case.

These are the companies that people regulary talk about spending millions on lobbying who can always get their way with the government. If the problems were fake or were able to be 'disappeared' you can bet your ass GM and Toyota wouldn't be in trouble.

Source? From what I recall, they did not find that, although Toyota did change the car programming to add the brake override part. The criminal investigation was about how Toyota "handled it", essentially forcing/blackmailing Toyota to accept blame for it so that the government wouldn't have to deal with a huge case(s) and the very likely result of it exonerating Toyota (and inducing public backlash because of it). The entire thing was a farce. There were a few cases that did have some credible claims, but most did not. The government also basically tried to say that Toyota didn't inform consumers well enough even though their findings were that there was not an actual problem with most of the cars. IIRC even the floormat stuff was actually due to aftermarket floormats and wasn't actually the culprit either.

The McDonald's case was a total farce as well, especially when you realize it didn't actually accomplish what people think it did (she did not see the money she was rewarded, she settled with McDonald's after the trial). I think the woman deserved the settlement (she just wanted her medical bills covered but McDonalds picked this case to throw their weight behind and then pulled a bunch of BS).

I haven't actually looked into this recall so I don't know exactly what the deal is, so I won't comment on it.

 

[Pacfanweb]

^the investigation never found a problem with the software. But Toyota has agreed to a settlement now.

 

[waffleironhead]

Source? From what I recall, they did not find that, although Toyota did change the car programming to add the brake override part. The criminal investigation was about how Toyota "handled it", essentially forcing/blackmailing Toyota to accept blame for it so that the government wouldn't have to deal with a huge case(s) and the very likely result of it exonerating Toyota (and inducing public backlash because of it). The entire thing was a farce. There were a few cases that did have some credible claims, but most did not. The government also basically tried to say that Toyota didn't inform consumers well enough even though their findings were that there was not an actual problem with most of the cars. IIRC even the floormat stuff was actually due to aftermarket floormats and wasn't actually the culprit either.

The McDonald's case was a total farce as well, especially when you realize it didn't actually accomplish what people think it did (she did not see the money she was rewarded, she settled with McDonald's after the trial). I think the woman deserved the settlement (she just wanted her medical bills covered but McDonalds picked this case to throw their weight behind and then pulled a bunch of BS).

I haven't actually looked into this recall so I don't know exactly what the deal is, so I won't comment on it.

I think he is referring to the Bookout versus toyota trial.
http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2370362

 

[MiataNC]

Continued bad press and dragging things through the courts will cost Toyota a lot more than 1.2B.

The same goes for GM. Better to recall and settle than to wade through the bread and circuses of a 24/7 news cycle and a congress that loves to listen to itself blather on.

FYI I drive a 2007 Cobalt beater daily (I took the shitty car my wife had when we met, and let her drive my Mazda's, if that doesn't give me Saint status, nothing will). It has been frustratingly reliable. I get 31mpg mixed driving, and everything works like new with 103,000+ miles on the odometer. As much as I would love to find an excuse to get rid of it, it keeps chugging along; paid for, reliable, and great on gas.