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I have a conundrum

patentman

Golden Member
Apr 8, 2005
1,035
1
0
Cliffs notes: Given the choice between: a) a job offering tons of money but no vacation and ridiculous hours; and b) a job that offers ok money, excellent flexibility (work at home 99% of the time) and good vacation, which would you chose? Would it matter to you if you could take the high paying job but on a 80/80 plan (bill 80% of the hours for 80% of the pay?)

LONG VERSION: I'm facing a conundrum. As some of you may know, I am about ready to graduate from law school this May. I currently work for a Large Patent Law Firm/boutique during the day and I go to school at night. My firm likes me and has offered me a full associate position at $155k/year + bar costs (~$3500 including the review course) and moving costs for relocating to Boston (up to $15k, including airfare and hotel for house hunting trips etc.). The problem, as I've mentioned before, it that they want 2000 billable hours per year, +200 non-billable firm hours. To get 2000 billables doing what I do (patent prosecution) I would need to work ~2400 hours. That means I would be doing firm related stuff for 2600 hours per year, with no vacation. Note that the average raise per year at my firm is something like 20-30k a year +bonueses. So in 3 years I would be making somewhere between 220-280k/year.

On the other hand, I have an offer from the US Patent and Trademark Office to be reinstated as an Examiner there. Although I have gained tons of valuable experience and education in the 2.5 years I've been away from the Office, this apparently means nothing to the PTO, as the HR department has informed me that I could only be reinstated at exaclty my old level, which is a GS 12, step 2 making ~75k a year. The upside of working for the PTO is I would be able to wrok from home 99% of the time, the job is relatively easy for me, and I would have 20 days of vacation and 11 paid holidays per year. In ~5 months I would be eligible for promotion to a GS-13, where I would make ~85k a year. In ~3 years I would make ~$110-115k.

So my conundrum is, which one do I chose? On the one hand I have a job that gives me the means to support my family in a manner that I never thought possible (wife wouldn't have to work, future kids would be well set etc.), but gives me little to no time on my own. On the other hand, if I take the PTO job I get to spend more time with my family, but my wife would continue to have to work and we would be more limited financially (although I am definitely not saying we would not be doing well, I am well aware of just how lucky I am to have what I have).

As an alternative consideration, my firm does offer an 80/80 plan (bill 80% of the time for 80% of the pay). however, this plan is usually only used by women who are mothers at the firm, and isn entirely revocable at the firms discretion. 80% of $155k is still a lot of money, and might give me the time I want, but I still would not have a lot of flexibility.

I know its a personal choice, but I'd like to hear what you guys think. I really feel like I am standing at the proverbial fork in the road, and if I chose the wrong way I will regret it for the rest of my life.

p.s. Could someone pm me with instructions on how to make a poll?
 

2Xtreme21

Diamond Member
Jun 13, 2004
7,044
0
0
This is a decision that can only be made by you. There are people out there who believe that the key to success and personal fulfillment is making a lot of money so you can provide a great life for yourself with material possessions. There are also people who believe that the key to personal fulfillment is spending as much time enjoying life as possible-- though you can argue that you can only enjoy life up to what you can afford.

I would personally choose the money and work, but that's because that is my personality and my outlook on success. Try looking at something more "middle of the road"?
 

mercanucaribe

Banned
Oct 20, 2004
9,763
1
0
And if you take the patent office job, hook me up with a GS-5 job, because I love working for the government.
 

axelfox

Diamond Member
Oct 13, 1999
6,719
1
0
Maybe you can rocket the patents we file in our office :D.

Seriously, it's what matters to you the most. I value my time more than money (although it seems I waste most of it on ATOT :D), so I chose to take jobs with less pay, but more flex time. Just remember, at some point, you have to ask yourself, "is the money worth it?"
 

2Xtreme21

Diamond Member
Jun 13, 2004
7,044
0
0
Originally posted by: Slew Foot
2600 hrs/yr = 50 hr/wk, that's nothing. Do that and retire early.

Yeah really... 10 hour days and weekends off. Damn I did that for $7.50 an hour during the summer last year.
 

arrfep

Platinum Member
Sep 7, 2006
2,314
16
81
Originally posted by: Slew Foot
2600 hrs/yr = 50 hr/wk, that's nothing. Do that and retire early.

I kind of agree with this. But the great thing about life is that you have pretty much an infinite amount of choices. Why not take this job for a year, maybe two or three if you can handle it. Live a reasonable lifestely and if you bust your butt for a few years, you can put away almost a quarter mil. Then you get a slower-paced, more flexible job after that.

Sounds like you don't have kids now so you have less time constraints. Work hard now to make life easier later instead of vice versa. Then you can have the easier job when you've got kids and want to spend time with them. But you still got a nice chunk of change in the bank.
 

Dirigible

Diamond Member
Apr 26, 2006
5,961
32
91
As a patent attorney with a bit more experience than you, I may have actual helpful advice. (Probably not, but my advice usually has no chance of being of any help whatsoever, so this is an improvement. :p)

I'd go with the big firm job right now. I'd get as many contacts as you can and as much and as broad experience as you can. Do patent prosecution, opinion letters, litigation support, licensing support, even try to grab some trademark and copyright experience if you can get it. Be super friendly and responsive to your clients and be sure to spend time talking to everyone there - the inventors, the business people, everyone.

After a very few but very crappy years you'll be able to do what you want. You can start your own little firm. You can go to a smaller firm. You can go in-house. Whatever. You'd be surprised, but as a prosecutor you only need a few (I've seen it successfully done with three years experience more than once) years before you can go out on your own.

My own experience: I was at a big firm for over four years. It sucked. I was constantly getting reprimanded for not putting in enough hours. I sucked it up because I was getting good experience. I ignored the "not putting in enough time" reprimands because I had no intention to try to make partner and the feedback on the quality of my work was good. Now I'm working for a company as in-house counsel, 90% of the time working from home, making very good money with a flexible schedule, with interesting work and constant new challenges to keep building my skills and my career potential growing.

If you work at the PTO again, what is your career going to be? What will you be doing in 10 years? 20? Will you stay interested? Do you have a chance to move into other roles and do other things.

Feel free to pm me if you have other questions.
 

FP

Diamond Member
Feb 24, 2005
4,568
0
0
If you like what you do then go for the money now and jump to the USPTO in 6 years.
 

Xstatic1

Diamond Member
Sep 20, 2006
8,982
50
86
are you kidding me? this shouldn't even be a conundrum at all!!!! hmmm, with the Patent Law Firm --you'll maybe see the sun one day a week 'cause the rest of the time u'll be on your way to work just before the sun comes up and be on your way home when the sun has already set. hmm, no vacation....what that really means is while you're making all that cash, your wife/family will have be having vacations without you for at least the first 3 years.

on the other hand at the PTO, you'll be making roughly $6k a month, seeing your wife/family since you'll be able to work from home, be relatively stress-free 'cause in your words--"the job is relatively easy for me". and then you'll have a month long vacation each year. and to top it all off, in 3 years, your salary will increase another $35k.

is there really any comparison???????!!!!!!!!!!!!! let me put it another way, do you want to BE MARRIED to your career....or to your wife?
 
Nov 7, 2000
16,403
3
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more time is appealing bc the compensation is still adequate. otoh you could take the hard job, save some money they not feel as bad switching to lower pay
 

z0mb13

Lifer
May 19, 2002
18,106
1
76
I am guessing you have bills/loans to pay. I would work hard for the first five years or so, then after that take the easy road. The gov job will always be there.

Remember, money earned now is worth more than money earned in the future.
 

Squisher

Lifer
Aug 17, 2000
21,204
66
91
I'd probably take the money, but remember one day you're going to look up from your death bed and say, "I wish I had spent more time at the office."
 

Old Hippie

Diamond Member
Oct 8, 2005
6,361
1
0
If it were me, I'd listen to the Been-There-Done-That guy Dirigible. "Play Time" is definately more valuable when you're young, but keep a close eye on the future. It'll be on ya in a heartbeat.

BTW, 50 hrs/wk is nothing.

Good Luck!
 

Siddhartha

Lifer
Oct 17, 1999
12,505
3
81
How is your health?

Are you in a relationship, married, do you have kids?

Do you have non-work related responsibilities, parents or family that need your time and support?

I recommend taking the higher paying job for five years only if your health is good and your personal life can survive you committing 100% to this job. Live well within your means and save money. Start planning now for a second career or job which is less demanding and will allow you to have a life.
 

Finality

Platinum Member
Oct 9, 1999
2,665
0
0
Meh

2600Hrs/50 wks = 52 Hrs a week 10.5 hours a day = no big deal. Get in at 8 leave at 6 pack a lunch and eat it at your desk. Though if you could take the 80/80 option go for it.

You sound relatively young now is the time to make money.

BTW in my opinion govt jobs are loser jobs. Unless its a clear stepping stone to somewhere else I dont see the point. A friend works in the patent office and her POV is shes become as lazy as everyone else there.
 

Balt

Lifer
Mar 12, 2000
12,673
482
126
It's really a decision that can only be made by you (and your family), but...

If there is any time in your life to work your ass off and get ahead, it's while you are still relatively young. The older you get, the more likely you are to get overly stressed by the long hours and lack of vacation time.

Make sure you think of not just the immediate future but 5, 10, and 15 years down the line. Are you going to still be happy with your choice?
 

patentman

Golden Member
Apr 8, 2005
1,035
1
0
Originally posted by: 2Xtreme21
Originally posted by: Slew Foot
2600 hrs/yr = 50 hr/wk, that's nothing. Do that and retire early.

Yeah really... 10 hour days and weekends off. Damn I did that for $7.50 an hour during the summer last year.

On paper it does work out to be ~10 hours a day, 5 days a week. In reality it is much more. Note that I said a "minimum" of 2600 hours.
 

DaWhim

Lifer
Feb 3, 2003
12,985
1
81
where will you be located for the PTO job?

I would go for the second job offer. statistically speaking, more money doesn't make people happier, especially you have to work a lot harder for it.
 

mercanucaribe

Banned
Oct 20, 2004
9,763
1
0
Originally posted by: arrfep
Originally posted by: Slew Foot
2600 hrs/yr = 50 hr/wk, that's nothing. Do that and retire early.

I kind of agree with this. But the great thing about life is that you have pretty much an infinite amount of choices. Why not take this job for a year, maybe two or three if you can handle it. Live a reasonable lifestely and if you bust your butt for a few years, you can put away almost a quarter mil. Then you get a slower-paced, more flexible job after that.

Sounds like you don't have kids now so you have less time constraints. Work hard now to make life easier later instead of vice versa. Then you can have the easier job when you've got kids and want to spend time with them. But you still got a nice chunk of change in the bank.

Actually that sounds like a good idea, but he would have to work at the high paying job for a while before his salary goes up a lot.
 

patentman

Golden Member
Apr 8, 2005
1,035
1
0
Originally posted by: z0mb13
I am guessing you have bills/loans to pay. I would work hard for the first five years or so, then after that take the easy road. The gov job will always be there.

Remember, money earned now is worth more than money earned in the future.

Actually my loans are very reasonable. I have the good fortune of going to one of the lowest priced 1st tier law schools in the nation. My school loans are only ~$22K. Aside from that and a mortgage, we are debt free.