I Grew Up a Hunter

[Perknose]

"I grew up a hunter, I worked at a gun club pulling trap growing up. No body is taking your guns!!! Gun reform!!!!! Let it be a test. Your electorate doesn’t want to die when they go to church or a concert or a bar!"

^^^ Ashton Kucher tweets about the Borderline massacre. His wife Mila Kunis threw a birthday party for him there:

"My wife threw me a birthday party this year at the Borderline. Only reason we are alive is the shooter chose a different night. My heart goes out to the victims. I’ll say it again... Gun Reform Now! Politicians need to stop standing behind the dollar & Protect the people!"

He had some advice for Ivanka Trump:

@IvankaTrump your brother in law was at that birthday party. He could have just as easily been a victim. You go to synagogues you could be a victim! Talk to your dad! Plead with your dad! Let this be your legacy! Gun Reform now!

^^^ You can sneer derisively if you wish: "Hollywood libruhls blah, blah, blah, etc . . ." Just watch the usual suspects here do so, exposing their morally bankrupt paranoia that somebody's coming to take their private arsenal. Nobody is, but reality does not trump the quivering emotion of fear with these folks, pandered to and fueled by the NRA.

Meanwhile, innocents needlessly die in horrific incidents like this, and what Ashton Kucher underlines is that nobody is more than a couple degrees of separation from this murderous epidemic. It's a sadness and a deeply immoral shame.

 

[SlowSpyder]

CA already has strict gun laws. Just like you guys say the conversation has already been had on tobacco and are willing to accept well over 10x as many deaths due to tobacco, I feel the conversation on gun rights has already been had.

Also, yea. The best political opinions always come from Hollywood celebs. Maybe James Woods can chime in on a few things and you'll want to listen too?

 

[Greenman]

"I grew up a hunter, I worked at a gun club pulling trap growing up. No body is taking your guns!!! Gun reform!!!!! Let it be a test. Your electorate doesn’t want to die when they go to church or a concert or a bar!"

^^^ Ashton Kucher tweets about the Borderline massacre. His wife Mila Kunis threw a birthday party for him there:

"My wife threw me a birthday party this year at the Borderline. Only reason we are alive is the shooter chose a different night. My heart goes out to the victims. I’ll say it again... Gun Reform Now! Politicians need to stop standing behind the dollar & Protect the people!"

He had some advice for Ivanka Trump:

@IvankaTrump your brother in law was at that birthday party. He could have just as easily been a victim. You go to synagogues you could be a victim! Talk to your dad! Plead with your dad! Let this be your legacy! Gun Reform now!

^^^ You can sneer derisively if you wish: "Hollywood libruhls blah, blah, blah, etc . . ." Just watch the usual suspects here do so, exposing their morally bankrupt paranoia that somebody's coming to take their private arsenal. Nobody is, but reality does not trump the quivering emotion of fear with these folks, pandered to and fueled by the NRA.

Meanwhile, innocents needlessly die in horrific incidents like this, and what Ashton Kucher underlines is that nobody is more than a couple degrees of separation from this murderous epidemic. It's a sadness and a deeply immoral shame.

What's the answer? I won't accept "gun control" as that's a catch phrase. Specifically, how do we stop crazy people from killing others with guns? The only way I see is to outlaw firearms, and I just don't think that's possible. Forget the second amendment side of it, I'm talking about the unbelievably huge number of arms floating around. How would we ever get rid of them, how would we stop them from flooding across the border, and how would we prevent them from being manufactured in small machine shops?
I honestly believe that this is going to be our new normal. Every now and then someone is going to crack and murder a bunch of random people then blow his own head off. It's going to be the same as the thirty thousand people killed in car accidents every year, we all shake our heads and bemoan the senseless loss of life, then accept it as the price of mobility.

I don't like it any more than you do, and I'm pretty sure that when the second amendment was written no one even considered the possibility of citizens randomly murdering each other in large scale engagements. But I don't see an answer. How do we stuff this particular genie back in the bottle?

 

[Commodus]

What's the answer? I won't accept "gun control" as that's a catch phrase. Specifically, how do we stop crazy people from killing others with guns? The only way I see is to outlaw firearms, and I just don't think that's possible. Forget the second amendment side of it, I'm talking about the unbelievably huge number of arms floating around. How would we ever get rid of them, how would we stop them from flooding across the border, and how would we prevent them from being manufactured in small machine shops?
I honestly believe that this is going to be our new normal. Every now and then someone is going to crack and murder a bunch of random people then blow his own head off. It's going to be the same as the thirty thousand people killed in car accidents every year, we all shake our heads and bemoan the senseless loss of life, then accept it as the price of mobility.

I don't like it any more than you do, and I'm pretty sure that when the second amendment was written no one even considered the possibility of citizens randomly murdering each other in large scale engagements. But I don't see an answer. How do we stuff this particular genie back in the bottle?

There are a few specific things that can be done.

First: reinstate the Obama-era checks for mental illness during gun purchases. This is by far one of the most bone-headed pieces of deregulation on Trump's part. It doesn't hurt healthy gun buyers and might just save lives.

Next, institute stringent, federal level restrictions on things like extended magazines. One of the US' perpetual problems is that people can simply go to states with very loose gun rules (like Nevada) and buy the gear they want. This won't stop mass murders or people shipping weapons from outside of the US, but it could at least lessen the blow.

There is the possibility of recognizing that semi-auto rifles aren't really needed for hunting or self-defense and thus limiting access to them, but I know that's a can of worms and wouldn't have helped in the most recent instance.

There are also some indirect but potentially vital changes to social infrastructure that would help. Offer much easier access to mental health care (and in the case of this latest shooting, better support for veterans). That might require heavy subsidies or even socializing it, but that's okay... the best health care in the world typically comes from socialized programs as it is. Focus on creating more educational and economic opportunities so that people don't feel helpless when they lose their jobs (some shootings are from people who've recently been fired, remember).

For that matter, reduce the expectations imposed on people. Right now we have a culture that encourages overtime at work, stigmatizes mental health and shames you if you're not in a relationship (the health of that relationship be damned). You have people who are regularly strung out and told they're failures if they're less than perfect. This would require better labor laws along with some cultural shifts, so it wouldn't be easy but it might be necessary.

The one thing I don't want to do is to assume that this is the "new normal" and throw our hands up. Virtually no other developed country has to deal with this kind of violence. That, to me, suggests the problem is something we can fix, rather than endemic to modern society or an intractable problem with American culture.

 

[dank69]

There are a few specific things that can be done.

First: reinstate the Obama-era checks for mental illness during gun purchases. This is by far one of the most bone-headed pieces of deregulation on Trump's part. It doesn't hurt healthy gun buyers and might just save lives.

Next, institute stringent, federal level restrictions on things like extended magazines. One of the US' perpetual problems is that people can simply go to states with very loose gun rules (like Nevada) and buy the gear they want. This won't stop mass murders or people shipping weapons from outside of the US, but it could at least lessen the blow.

There is the possibility of recognizing that semi-auto rifles aren't really needed for hunting or self-defense and thus limiting access to them, but I know that's a can of worms and wouldn't have helped in the most recent instance.

There are also some indirect but potentially vital changes to social infrastructure that would help. Offer much easier access to mental health care (and in the case of this latest shooting, better support for veterans). That might require heavy subsidies or even socializing it, but that's okay... the best health care in the world typically comes from socialized programs as it is. Focus on creating more educational and economic opportunities so that people don't feel helpless when they lose their jobs (some shootings are from people who've recently been fired, remember).

For that matter, reduce the expectations imposed on people. Right now we have a culture that encourages overtime at work, stigmatizes mental health and shames you if you're not in a relationship (the health of that relationship be damned). You have people who are regularly strung out and told they're failures if they're less than perfect. This would require better labor laws along with some cultural shifts, so it wouldn't be easy but it might be necessary.

The one thing I don't want to do is to assume that this is the "new normal" and throw our hands up. Virtually no other developed country has to deal with this kind of violence. That, to me, suggests the problem is something we can fix, rather than endemic to modern society or an intractable problem with American culture.

We can just give people a choice. You can be a radical or you can be a gun owner. You can't be both. You are conservative? No problem. Nothing radical about that. You attend a Trump rally? That's cool, but you've demonstrated you don't have the temperament to own a gun because you are a fucking loony tune. Muslim? No problem. Constantly talking about bathing your hands with the blood of infidels? Now we have a problem. Like guns? Cool. Like guns more than people and upset you haven't been lucky enough to have an opportunity to use it defensively? Sorry. No good.

 

[Greenman]

There are a few specific things that can be done.

First: reinstate the Obama-era checks for mental illness during gun purchases. This is by far one of the most bone-headed pieces of deregulation on Trump's part. It doesn't hurt healthy gun buyers and might just save lives.

Next, institute stringent, federal level restrictions on things like extended magazines. One of the US' perpetual problems is that people can simply go to states with very loose gun rules (like Nevada) and buy the gear they want. This won't stop mass murders or people shipping weapons from outside of the US, but it could at least lessen the blow.

There is the possibility of recognizing that semi-auto rifles aren't really needed for hunting or self-defense and thus limiting access to them, but I know that's a can of worms and wouldn't have helped in the most recent instance.

There are also some indirect but potentially vital changes to social infrastructure that would help. Offer much easier access to mental health care (and in the case of this latest shooting, better support for veterans). That might require heavy subsidies or even socializing it, but that's okay... the best health care in the world typically comes from socialized programs as it is. Focus on creating more educational and economic opportunities so that people don't feel helpless when they lose their jobs (some shootings are from people who've recently been fired, remember).

For that matter, reduce the expectations imposed on people. Right now we have a culture that encourages overtime at work, stigmatizes mental health and shames you if you're not in a relationship (the health of that relationship be damned). You have people who are regularly strung out and told they're failures if they're less than perfect. This would require better labor laws along with some cultural shifts, so it wouldn't be easy but it might be necessary.

The one thing I don't want to do is to assume that this is the "new normal" and throw our hands up. Virtually no other developed country has to deal with this kind of violence. That, to me, suggests the problem is something we can fix, rather than endemic to modern society or an intractable problem with American culture.

I absolutely agree with everything you said, but I fear we're just nibbling at the edges of the problem.

 

[Commodus]

I absolutely agree with everything you said, but I fear we're just nibbling at the edges of the problem.

I look at it this way: I'd rather nibble at the problem and know we did something than act as if the US is too far-gone. If it saves even a few lives, it's worthwhile. That and we have to accept that the solution was always likely to be a long journey, even if there are a few solutions we could implement right now if we wanted.

 

[UNCjigga]

How about this for a start:

- 50% federal sales tax on all semi-automatic handguns and rifles with removable magazines
- 100% federal sales tax on certain ammunition (.45 ACP, .357, high-powered rounds, hollow points--anything not commonly used for hunting or sport shooting) and magazines that hold more than 10 rounds.
- Close all loopholes on existing gun laws (I.e. common sense reforms on existing laws, terror watch list, no gun show loophole etc.)

Use the revenue to sponsor or fund gun buyback programs, mental health resources etc. at the state level.

 

[SlowSpyder]

How about this for a start:

- 50% federal sales tax on all semi-automatic handguns and rifles with removable magazines
- 100% federal sales tax on certain ammunition (.45 ACP, .357, high-powered rounds, hollow points--anything not commonly used for hunting or sport shooting) and magazines that hold more than 10 rounds.
- Close all loopholes on existing gun laws (I.e. common sense reforms on existing laws, terror watch list, no gun show loophole etc.)

Use the revenue to sponsor or fund gun buyback programs, mental health resources etc. at the state level.

Punish all gun owners. I'm sure the 99.99999% of gun owners that don't murder people will be all for that.

 

[Thebobo]

Slightly revised


NEW rules 6.4

• Ban all guns except registered pistols and real* hunting rifles.
• No large clips/magazines for pistols or rifles.*
• You must have a title for each gun you own.
• Buy back programs for them, after 2 years it would be a felony to own an unregistered gun without a title.
• No gun show selling
• Private sales illegal without transfer of gun title.
• No silencers
• No gun modifications "adapters" that increase amount of ammo or fire rate.
• No open carry on our streets at all period.
• No concealed carry unless you have a damn good reason.
• No immediate gun purchases.
• Complete background check.
• 10 day waiting list.
• Before you purchase a gun for the first time you first have to take a firearm safety class.
  

*To be determined

 

[Zorba]

Slightly revised


NEW rules 6.4

• Ban all guns except registered pistols and real* hunting rifles.
• No large clips/magazines for pistols or rifles.*
• You must have a title for each gun you own.
• Buy back programs for them, after 2 years it would be a felony to own an unregistered gun without a title.
• No gun show selling
• Private sales illegal without transfer of gun title.
• No silencers
• No gun modifications "adapters" that increase amount of ammo or fire rate.
• No open carry on our streets at all period.
• No concealed carry unless you have a damn good reason.
• No immediate gun purchases.
• Complete background check.
• 10 day waiting list.
• Before you purchase a gun for the first time you first have to take a firearm safety class.

*To be determined

I'd add safe storage requirements and if an owner doesn't report a stolen/missing gun and it's used in a crime they can be held liable. And if a gun is stolen because it wasn't secured, there should be a fine. You know, mandate responsible gun ownership.

Waiting period, full background checks, and mental health screening should be no brainers.

 

[Muse]

What's the answer? I won't accept "gun control" as that's a catch phrase. Specifically, how do we stop crazy people from killing others with guns? The only way I see is to outlaw firearms, and I just don't think that's possible. Forget the second amendment side of it, I'm talking about the unbelievably huge number of arms floating around. How would we ever get rid of them, how would we stop them from flooding across the border, and how would we prevent them from being manufactured in small machine shops...?

I'll stop right there. You have to have some imagination and patience. If you make it illegal to possess a gun (with very stiff penalties), what good can it possibly do you? You get discovered, you go to jail. You would soon enough realize that it can't possibly do you any good. If an armed robber threatened you or even shot your family, you couldn't justify shooting him or try to fend him off with your gun. That riles you? If that robber got 30 years for having that firearm, how many would be robbers would use them? Practically none.

I don't like it any more than you do, and I'm pretty sure that when the second amendment was written no one even considered the possibility of citizens randomly murdering each other in large scale engagements. But I don't see an answer. How do we stuff this particular genie back in the bottle?

We can either repeal the 2nd Amendment or get the SCOTUS to declare its dicta not applicable to modern America.

 

[tweaker2]

Slightly revised


NEW rules 6.4

• Ban all guns except registered pistols and real* hunting rifles.
• No large clips/magazines for pistols or rifles.*
• You must have a title for each gun you own.
• Buy back programs for them, after 2 years it would be a felony to own an unregistered gun without a title.
• No gun show selling
• Private sales illegal without transfer of gun title.
• No silencers
• No gun modifications "adapters" that increase amount of ammo or fire rate.
• No open carry on our streets at all period.
• No concealed carry unless you have a damn good reason.
• No immediate gun purchases.
• Complete background check.
• 10 day waiting list.
• Before you purchase a gun for the first time you first have to take a firearm safety class.

*To be determined

Sounds a lot like Hawaii statute and as an owner of a few firearms, I'm fine with that.

 

[mizzou]

it’s amazing to me how few mass shootings we have as it is. It’s surprising how many people are ticking time bombs with weapons. Most of the time they hold it together or the social services combo can work it’s magic...but I’m going to be honest and say there’s a boat load of people everywhere who should not have guns.

Best way to address that? No clue.

 

[tweaker2]

it’s amazing to me how few mass shootings we have as it is. It’s surprising how many people are ticking time bombs with weapons. Most of the time they hold it together or the social services combo can work it’s magic...but I’m going to be honest and say there’s a boat load of people everywhere who should not have guns.

Best way to address that? No clue.

In the meantime the mass killings keep on keeping on, tragedy, misery and pain are felt by the surviving victims, their loved ones and those folks who had to bury their children, their kin and friends lost from these mass murders. And the folks who love their guns you ask? Why they've been very busy ignoring these repeated tragedies and are even busier buttressing and maintaining those barriers they put up around that horrific boogeyman slippery slope they're so terrified of, all of which is very well funded and propagandized by those money grubbing gun manufacturers via the NRA that they took control of awhile back.

 

[compcons]

Punish all gun owners. I'm sure the 99.99999% of gun owners that don't murder people will be all for that.

There seems to be 2 thoughts for gun utters:
1) the 2A means "I can have type of gun I want and you can't regulate any part of my gun ownership rights." Even cars have restrictions and they aren't designed to be a weapon for killing things. This is like saying car owners are being punished because there is a restrictor that limits a 1000hp car to 180 mph. It is ridiculous.

2) The problem can't be fixed 100% so do nothing. Well since we can't prevent all auto deaths, there is no need for seatbelts, airbags, traction controls, etc. I mean people are still going to die so why yry to mitigate at all. My favorite part of this logic is that so often the same people claim that the border wall may not be 100% effective, we should spend billions because it will make some improvement. This logic usually eludes them. Feelz get in the way.

 

[SlowSpyder]

There seems to be 2 thoughts for gun utters:
1) the 2A means "I can have type of gun I want and you can't regulate any part of my gun ownership rights." Even cars have restrictions and they aren't designed to be a weapon for killing things. This is like saying car owners are being punished because there is a restrictor that limits a 1000hp car to 180 mph. It is ridiculous.

2) The problem can't be fixed 100% so do nothing. Well since we can't prevent all auto deaths, there is no need for seatbelts, airbags, traction controls, etc. I mean people are still going to die so why yry to mitigate at all. My favorite part of this logic is that so often the same people claim that the border wall may not be 100% effective, we should spend billions because it will make some improvement. This logic usually eludes them. Feelz get in the way.

1) Your analogy isn't great. There is no constitutional right to a car. If there were, taxing it so heavily that it meant to dissuade people from being able to afford a car would be effectively unconstitutional. It'd be akin to a high cost tax stamp to have the right to free speech that few could afford. Also, there really aren't legal limits to a cars performance, just safety regulations and government mandated pollution limits.

2) I agree, the problem cannot be fixed 100%, as long as there are guns (or knives, bats, cars, tobacco, poisons, etc.) innocent people will get hurt in mishaps or when someone uses that tool/device for evil intent. I'm for sensible regulations that don't overly infringe on the rights of all. Trying to tax guns and ammo into oblivion does nothing for black market guns yet penalizes every single legal gun owner. It is a stupid idea and I can't see how using a tax to effectively cripple something in the bill of rights without repealing it can be legal.

 

[SNC]

Slightly revised


NEW rules 6.4

• Ban all guns except registered pistols and real* hunting rifles.
• No large clips/magazines for pistols or rifles.*
• You must have a title for each gun you own.
• Buy back programs for them, after 2 years it would be a felony to own an unregistered gun without a title.
• No gun show selling
• Private sales illegal without transfer of gun title.
• No silencers
• No gun modifications "adapters" that increase amount of ammo or fire rate.
• No open carry on our streets at all period.
• No concealed carry unless you have a damn good reason.
• No immediate gun purchases.
• Complete background check.
• 10 day waiting list.
• Before you purchase a gun for the first time you first have to take a firearm safety class.

*To be determined

I'm onboard. Handguns should be limited to wheels and over under Derringer style and long guns to bolt style actions. It would impact hunting and self defence a big fat 0 but will slow down a fuckwad bent on killing people.
If you feel that you need more than that then lets start a conversation on why and what can be done to eliminate those threats. Perhaps if all the bad guys didn't have AKs you might not feel the need to either.
I would also add to your list that any person committing a crime no matter how small while in the possession of any firearm are fair game. If you want to use a gun to aid your criminal activity then you do so under the threat of death.

 

[Greenman]

I'll stop right there. You have to have some imagination and patience. If you make it illegal to possess a gun (with very stiff penalties), what good can it possibly do you? You get discovered, you go to jail. You would soon enough realize that it can't possibly do you any good. If an armed robber threatened you or even shot your family, you couldn't justify shooting him or try to fend him off with your gun. That riles you? If that robber got 30 years for having that firearm, how many would be robbers would use them? Practically none.
We can either repeal the 2nd Amendment or get the SCOTUS to declare its dicta not applicable to modern America.

Stiff penalties don't really matter. Look at the war on drugs, or the 3 strikes law right here in CA. Criminals tend to operate on the biases that they won't get caught, otherwise they wouldn't be criminals. They don't weigh the gains against the possibility of going to jail. It doesn't enter the mass shooter conversation at all, as those guys are taking a one way trip. They know that at the end they're going to kill themselves, so even if the punishment was having your eyes gouged out and hands cut off, they don't care. The only way those guys are stopped is if they can't get a weapon.
I also wonder what happens when they can't get a gun. Do they give up their dream of mass murder? Or do they use a different tool? I have no idea how that works because I'm not capable of understanding the workings of a badly damaged mind.

 

[Muse]

A big part of the mass shooting problem obviously is the availability of guns. Now, they are all over the place. If it's a major felony to possess them, they will become scarce over time. You doubt that? Drugs and guns are very different animals.

Dreams of mass murder are fertilized by the availability of the weapons that facilitate that. Absent those, the dreams are not nearly as common. Fantasies are like that. Most mass shooters if they didn't have access to guns would not cook up some other scheme of mayhem.

 

[SlowSpyder]

I'm onboard. Handguns should be limited to wheels and over under Derringer style and long guns to bolt style actions. It would impact hunting and self defence a big fat 0 but will slow down a fuckwad bent on killing people.
If you feel that you need more than that then lets start a conversation on why and what can be done to eliminate those threats. Perhaps if all the bad guys didn't have AKs you might not feel the need to either.
I would also add to your list that any person committing a crime no matter how small while in the possession of any firearm are fair game. If you want to use a gun to aid your criminal activity then you do so under the threat of death.

Do you guys realize that the number of people killed by all rifles (including AK's and AR's) is less than the number of people murdered by blunt objects such as hammers and bats? This is exactly the problem with the left when it comes to talking about sensible gun restrictions. You blow things so far out of proportion and want to penalize 10's of millions of gun owners over something that is less than a drop in the bucket, statistically.

 

[soundforbjt]

Do you guys realize that the number of people killed by all rifles (including AK's and AR's) is less than the number of people murdered by blunt objects such as hammers and bats? This is exactly the problem with the left when it comes to talking about sensible gun restrictions. You blow things so far out of proportion and want to penalize 10's of millions of gun owners over something that is less than a drop in the bucket, statistically.

How many people have been killed in a single incident by bats and hammers by one person?

 

[SlowSpyder]

How many people have been killed in a single incident by bats and hammers by one person?

I don't deny that guns should allow for more mayhem, but the reality is those other things create a higher body count than rifles on average. Simply put, more loved ones are cut down before their time by bats and hammers than rifles. And again, the left doesn't want to do anything about that, but when it comes to the 2A you look for every opportunity to try and restrict it.

 

[1prophet]

I'll stop right there. You have to have some imagination and patience. If you make it illegal to possess a gun (with very stiff penalties), what good can it possibly do you? You get discovered, you go to jail. You would soon enough realize that it can't possibly do you any good. If an armed robber threatened you or even shot your family, you couldn't justify shooting him or try to fend him off with your gun. That riles you? If that robber got 30 years for having that firearm, how many would be robbers would use them? Practically none.
We can either repeal the 2nd Amendment or get the SCOTUS to declare its dicta not applicable to modern America.

And of course like the drug war minorities and those without affluenza will be the ones serving most of those 30 year draconian sentences because draconian sentences work so well for the war on drugs,

and of course we need to make sure that we round up all those evil guns so lets repeal the 4th amendment so these guys can do a door to door search

so we can all feel safe because if you are an honest white law abiding citizen you should have nothing to fear of the police.

P.S. pay no attention to the black guy on the ground there, he is just sacrificing some of his rights so you all white people can feel safe and secure.

 

[Commodus]

I don't deny that guns should allow for more mayhem, but the reality is those other things create a higher body count than rifles on average. Simply put, more loved ones are cut down before their time by bats and hammers than rifles. And again, the left doesn't want to do anything about that, but when it comes to the 2A you look for every opportunity to try and restrict it.

Bats and hammers aren't designed to kill. Guns are explicitly designed to kill. That's why we're more concerned about them -- there's a public responsibility to treat them differently.