I fear the United States Government more than most other entities

Lithium381

Lifer
May 12, 2001
12,452
2
0
After a discussion with a friend yesterday he said the phrase from the title and i realized that I agree.

I am more fearful that the government acting through one of its many agencies will "harm" me than the Taliban, AQ, the Russians or any other "foreign" entity they claim to be protecting me from.

They are the most poised to arrest me and hold me, to confiscate my belongings or to cause me grief the rest of my life through considered 'legal' means and I have very little recourse to fight it. We as Americans have little recourse against any of it.

Our elected officials operate in the shadows and our agencies spy on our own citizens. The agency that's tasked with collecting taxes is targeting political groups. If it has to do with foreign policy, it's marked as 'classified' and the People don't get a say.

We've got legislators making laws on things that they are least educated on. See Democrats/Liberals on regulating guns ("The shoulder thing that comes up" and "when all the ammunition is shot the magazines will be useless") and the Republicans and their endless ignorance on the aftermath of rape.

It's worse punishment to get caught in NY with an 8th round in your pistol than several violent crimes that actually HAVE victims.

How do we change the course of our country when letters written with sincerity to your congressmen/women are responded to with canned responses essentially telling you to go pound sand.

I feel that our populace is so uneducated on the issues facing our country and actually WANT to remain that way because it's depressing and too much to think about. We'd rather watch our soap operas and Dancing With the Stars. We've had the wool pulled over our eyes and become so polarized that as long as "our team" wins and sticks it to the [insert R/D] then good! I've been ignorant and a victim of confirmation bias and only listening to things that confirmed what I've come to believe. A few members here such as Craig have helped me attempt to broaden my view and filter things more effectively.

Are we heading in the right direction? Do you fear the government? More than the Russians and Chinese and AQ? The terrorists have won .. ..
I've for long denied myself the fantasy of a tinfoil hat revolution of any sort, but having been the victim of a frog in boiling water for too long I see this country going downhill and very few ways to correct the path.

/Illuminati
/black helicopters
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
The thing is, you don't even list the bigger threats - the wealthy and corporate interests.

Tobacco, pollution, political corruption, wealth theft, finance corruption... not a mention.

That's the problem. You don't even have those as concerns, making you easily manipulated to cripple the government on things when it wants to protect you.

When the government wants to protect the environment, for example, they're not protecting the public - they're doing something terrible. It's crazy.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
How do we change the course of our country when letters written with sincerity to your congressmen/women are responded to with canned responses essentially telling you to go pound sand.

There's power in organization and money. So you as one citizen writing a letter have almost no effect on who is elected. Organize, donate, get big money out of politics.

Who is your Cogressperson going to listen to, the letter writer or the interest donating money to pay for ads that voters fall for?

He can listen to the letter writer - and lose his office. There's a reason progressives fight against big money in politics. And this corruption does eat away at faith in democracy.
 

boomerang

Lifer
Jun 19, 2000
18,883
641
126
How do we change the course of our country when letters written with sincerity to your congressmen/women are responded to with canned responses essentially telling you to go pound sand.
The same way it was formed. Through the spilled blood of true patriots. Sounds pretty sensationalistic, but if you think it through it's the only logical conclusion. The corruption is completely uncontrolled. From the top to the bottom and with tentacles branching out everywhere.

It all hinges on freedom. How much do you want? Do you want to live your life as you desire with a moral code as your guide or do you want to be incarcerated just for buying water?

But, no bloody uprising will occur, you can be certain of that. So let that not trouble you. Our freedoms will be eroded until we are under complete control of the ever growing, all powerful government. We are repeating the mistakes of the past and our nation will eventually collapse. History teaches us this. There will be no other nation willing and with deep enough pockets to come to our rescue.

No sense worrying about that which you cannot control or change. Great civilizations have fallen before. We'll be a chapter in a history book someday. You may just have a ringside seat to an event of enormous proportions if you live long enough.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
The same way it was formed. Through the spilled blood of true patriots. Sounds pretty sensationalistic, but if you think it through it's the only logical conclusion. The corruption is completely uncontrolled. From the top to the bottom and with tentacles branching out everywhere.

It all hinges on freedom. How much do you want? Do you want to live your life as you desire with a moral code as your guide or do you want to be incarcerated just for buying water?

But, no bloody uprising will occur, you can be certain of that. So let that not trouble you. Our freedoms will be eroded until we are under complete control of the ever growing, all powerful government. We are repeating the mistakes of the past and our nation will eventually collapse. History teaches us this. There will be no other nation willing and with deep enough pockets to come to our rescue.

No sense worrying about that which you cannot control or change. Great civilizations have fallen before. We'll be a chapter in a history book someday. You may just have a ringside seat to an event of enormous proportions if you live long enough.

Before rushing to that picture of doom, remember how much you help freedom be lost if you vote for the wrong people, the servants of power.
 

colonelciller

Senior member
Sep 29, 2012
915
0
0
There's power in organization and money. So you as one citizen writing a letter have almost no effect on who is elected. Organize, donate, get big money out of politics.

money in politics is the problem. big money in politics is even worse.

trouble is that as long as the current governmental structure remains, money will N E V E R be removed from politics for an extremely simple reason. the people who have the power to remove the money from politics are the same people who need that big money in politics in order to keep their jobs, in order to keep their yacht, etc... and they are in power today thanks to the big money that put them there yesterday... and now they have debts to pay for those big money campaign bribes (donations)

...and paying off the debts they owe (yes owe) to their big money donors will never be acheived by voting to remove big money from politics.

big money is entrenched forever and simply cannot be removed from the existing system. the system is unrecoverably corrupted and broken by big money. there is no fix. it does not exist
 
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Kadarin

Lifer
Nov 23, 2001
44,296
15
81
When it's no longer possible to elect representatives who have our genuine interests at heart, our experiment in representative democracy looks at this point to be a failure. The direction this country is moving in is not a good one, and it appears that movement is accelerating.
 

boxleitnerb

Platinum Member
Nov 1, 2011
2,601
2
81
I think the internet and all associated technologies are (were?) the best chance to really change things.

Imagine a new breed of parties that are not talking money from corporations for funding their campaigns, but only from individuals. $1000 could be the limit of donations, so no undue influence is exacted by small lobbyist groups. The parties present themselves mostly over the web (as opposed to expensive TV ads), and the people partake online in referendums. Elections are done via pen and paper as the electronic voting machines can easily be tampered with. Politicians are forbidden to assume any other position during their time in office. Problem is, you cannot really control what happens afterwards...like "do that for us and after your term, you get the well paid position xyz in our company".
Bribery will be punished severely. So severely in fact, that no one would even think of doing it.
Oh, and most importantly: Elected officials can be voted out of office prematurely (maybe even with some kind of "punishment")! This is important in my opinion since the government currently gets a blank cheque in the elections. They promise A but do B and until the next elections, there is little to nothing we can do about it. Or they do things that violate the constitution or in other ways harm the people they should protect and serve.

That would be my idea of a better democracy with more accountability.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
I think the internet and all associated technologies are (were?) the best chance to really change things.

Imagine a new breed of parties that are not talking money from corporations for funding their campaigns, but only from individuals. $1000 could be the limit of donations, so no undue influence is exacted by small lobbyist groups. The parties present themselves mostly over the web (as opposed to expensive TV ads), and the people partake online in referendums. Elections are done via pen and paper as the electronic voting machines can easily be tampered with. Politicians are forbidden to assume any other position during their time in office. Problem is, you cannot really control what happens afterwards...like "do that for us and after your term, you get the well paid position xyz in our company".
Bribery will be punished severely. So severely in fact, that no one would even think of doing it.
Oh, and most importantly: Elected officials can be voted out of office prematurely (maybe even with some kind of "punishment")! This is important in my opinion since the government currently gets a blank cheque in the elections. They promise A but do B and until the next elections, there is little to nothing we can do about it. Or they do things that violate the constitution or in other ways harm the people they should protect and serve.

That would be my idea of a better democracy with more accountability.

We have the solution, pretty much: the progressive caucus. We don't need to re-innent the wheel. Thing is, they're there and running, but only 1/6 of Congress is that group.

The question is why aren't more of them elected? A super-majority? Is it the money? What else is needed?

In the 2012 election, Buddy Rhomer was a Republican former Governor and Congressman, who got very few votes. He was available as an 'anti big money' candidate.

People may say things are headed in the wrong direction, but 5/6 of Congress speaks pretty loudly that they're voting for that. There was no progressive presidential candidate.

How many Americans 'don't care' and 'lump them all together' and don't get informed?

Big money doesn't have to work, but it is effective when so many citizens don't get informed enough and make good picks to not have the ads win elections.

A century ago, the US Senate was called the "Millionare's Club", appointed by State Legislators who didn't have to listen to the citizens.

The public managed to get outraged and organized enough to pass a constitutional amendment to make the US Senate an elected position to combat the corruption.

That may have seemed very hard to do, but they did it - just as it seems very hard now to pass money reforms. But if we don't, there's a very heavy price - our government.

People need to get involved enough to actively support movements to get big money out of politics if they want to take their government back. And that doesn't mean tea parties.
 

boxleitnerb

Platinum Member
Nov 1, 2011
2,601
2
81
But the progressive caucus is nothing more than an sub-party group, isn't it? What the US and most other democracies need imo is a binding set of rules regarding the conduct during elections and during political terms.

Maybe it would be a good idea to limit the budgets of campaigns as well. The amount of money spend there is obscene and could be put to better use. One could give a (small) amount of government money to each candidate in the spirit of fairness. They can raise more on their own, but with the $1000/person limit as mentioned above and nothing from any group or institution whatsoever.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,547
15,421
136
Do I fear the government? No.

If you don't like government then stop voting for the idiots that are trying to break it!


I know we have some conservatives on this board as well as some that call themselves republican and I think we can all assume what they are for, smaller government and less government spending and lower taxes. Now take your current representatives and look at not only their voting record but also the legislation they have sponsored, what have they done in regards to the things that matter to you?

Sure they have voted against a crap ton of shit but that doesn't fix the issues it merely maintains status quo.

If they haven't done anything to fix the issues that are important to you, why do you still support them?


Of course the same exercise could be done for those on the left as well.
 

Murloc

Diamond Member
Jun 24, 2008
5,382
65
91
you need semidirect democracy to get the power into your own hands.
How comes no one is pushing for that, but everyone in the world is complaining about not feeling represented?
Pure representative democracy is flawed.

Switzerland is very similar to the US in its structure, semidirect democracy would be easy to implement in the US.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,266
126
Do I fear the government? No.

If you don't like government then stop voting for the idiots that are trying to break it!


I know we have some conservatives on this board as well as some that call themselves republican and I think we can all assume what they are for, smaller government and less government spending and lower taxes. Now take your current representatives and look at not only their voting record but also the legislation they have sponsored, what have they done in regards to the things that matter to you?

Sure they have voted against a crap ton of shit but that doesn't fix the issues it merely maintains status quo.

If they haven't done anything to fix the issues that are important to you, why do you still support them?


Of course the same exercise could be done for those on the left as well.

Ok. What party can I choose that will not give us Snowden as a result? There isn't one. Don't like disease? Don't get sick. Don't like getting old? Vote to stay young! There is a much real world control over the government. There is no single entity as powerful as the US government. One call from Biden appears to have Ecuador back pedaling regarding Snowdens asylum. Obama doesn't care what you want or anyone want are have a right to nor does he need to. Corporations are powerful and abusive. I'll be working for one of the worst later this morning but nothing compared to a government prepared to take measures to secure its ongoing policies. The Koch brothers have nothing on J. Edgar Hoover.
 

boomerang

Lifer
Jun 19, 2000
18,883
641
126
People need to get involved enough to actively support movements to get big money out of politics if they want to take their government back. And that doesn't mean tea parties.
The Tea Party is the best answer before us today if in conjunction with restoring power to the people the importance of fiscal responsibility is understood.

You label yourself as a Progressive which is just a euphemism for Socialist. When the Socialist label goes out of favor, socialists 'reinvent' themselves with a new label. Progressive is the label du jour. The Congressional Progressive Caucus while touting the importance of the restoration of power to the electorate, downplays their agenda of equal misery for all. Which is where Socialism on the scale in which the Caucus and yourself desire will have us. Well no thanks. I have only to look at a handful of names in the Caucus to know that they are not the answer to anything. We may agree that the people need to become a far bigger part of our electoral process but we will never agree on the method. I'm not willing to surrender to the ministrations of Progressives in an attempt to turn the country around. There is no progress in Progressive. It's basis is rehashing of old policies that did not work in the hope that this time they will.

The Tea Party is the best answer before us today. Freedom, fiscal responsibility, accountability for one's actions - all the attributes that made us the once great nation that we were. A nation the world flocked to for the opportunities that were available. Now, they flock here for the free benefits. The Tea Party is our only hope to turn this nation around. The Progressive Caucus will just take us farther and faster down the road to serfdom we find ourselves on today.

The Progressive Caucus could very easily seize control of the country. We're at the tipping point of 50% on the government dole. Some well thought out PR, convincing the masses that their government cheese comes from the Caucus and bingo, more members and power galore. To win, they must appeal to the useful idiots that our educational system has bred by the millions over several decades. Though it might entail a fight with the Democrats for control over that demographic.

With every passing month I'm more convinced that the fundamental transformation will be completed. Without a shot fired.
 

poofyhairguy

Lifer
Nov 20, 2005
14,612
318
126
The Tea Party would be great if it was really about cutting government and the budget.

Instead its 45+ year old backers are all about cutting the entitlements they don't like (welfare) while keeping the ones they are about to benefit from (SS, Medicare). You know 6% of the budget vs most of it.

Your post is full of that rhetoric. Its disconnected from reality. Non senior entitlements are a drop in the bucket.

I tried really hard to be part of the tea party movement. But in those circles if you try to talk about raising the retirement age or cutting defense spending they act like you are nuts.

Tea Parties are just a rehash of the tired mainstream conservative thought process that is poor people welfare that is bankrupting the government when it's really old people welfare.

Until the baby boomers die any conservative movement is snooze boring. I would rather stay with the Ron Paul or libertarian crazies.
 

boomerang

Lifer
Jun 19, 2000
18,883
641
126
The Tea Party would be great if it was really about cutting government and the budget.
Herein lies the problem. There is no one organization that appeals across the board to enough people to get the backing needed to change the system.

Craig sides with the Progressives.

I see the Tea Party, but mostly their underlying principles as the answer.

You're pure Libertarian.

This is why we're doomed. What politician's have had overwhelming success with is dividing us into groups. Dividing us into tribes. They're rioting in Egypt in attempts to bring about a regime change. Here in the U.S., we're footing the bill for a $100 million dollar trip to Africa for the Obama family and a cousin while watching Swamp People and eating Doritos. It's going to take a whole heck of a lot to get people off the couch.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,632
50,852
136
After a discussion with a friend yesterday he said the phrase from the title and i realized that I agree.

I am more fearful that the government acting through one of its many agencies will "harm" me than the Taliban, AQ, the Russians or any other "foreign" entity they claim to be protecting me from.

They are the most poised to arrest me and hold me, to confiscate my belongings or to cause me grief the rest of my life through considered 'legal' means and I have very little recourse to fight it. We as Americans have little recourse against any of it.

Our elected officials operate in the shadows and our agencies spy on our own citizens. The agency that's tasked with collecting taxes is targeting political groups. If it has to do with foreign policy, it's marked as 'classified' and the People don't get a say.

We've got legislators making laws on things that they are least educated on. See Democrats/Liberals on regulating guns ("The shoulder thing that comes up" and "when all the ammunition is shot the magazines will be useless") and the Republicans and their endless ignorance on the aftermath of rape.

It's worse punishment to get caught in NY with an 8th round in your pistol than several violent crimes that actually HAVE victims.

How do we change the course of our country when letters written with sincerity to your congressmen/women are responded to with canned responses essentially telling you to go pound sand.

I feel that our populace is so uneducated on the issues facing our country and actually WANT to remain that way because it's depressing and too much to think about. We'd rather watch our soap operas and Dancing With the Stars. We've had the wool pulled over our eyes and become so polarized that as long as "our team" wins and sticks it to the [insert R/D] then good! I've been ignorant and a victim of confirmation bias and only listening to things that confirmed what I've come to believe. A few members here such as Craig have helped me attempt to broaden my view and filter things more effectively.

Are we heading in the right direction? Do you fear the government? More than the Russians and Chinese and AQ? The terrorists have won .. ..
I've for long denied myself the fantasy of a tinfoil hat revolution of any sort, but having been the victim of a frog in boiling water for too long I see this country going downhill and very few ways to correct the path.

/Illuminati
/black helicopters

Of course your own government (generally) has greater capacity to harm you than a foreign government, you spend most of your time around them. This is similar to the fact that your close friends/relative/romantic interests are by far the people most likely to kill you. Proximity lends itself to ability to harm.

Americans have nearly always believed their nation to be in decline. It's part of our cultural DNA, we always think that disaster is right around the corner. Also, frogs don't actually sit in water like that.
 

TraumaRN

Diamond Member
Jun 5, 2005
6,893
63
91
The short answer to your question is yes I am.

Basically I'm looking to have saved enough money in the next 10 years to emigrate elsewhere in this world. As far I'm concerned there are other democratic countries where I can move that IMO offer a similar or greater level of freedom and a reasonable cost and standard of living.

I have experienced multiple occasions in my personal and family life where I've seen 'justice' and corporate bad behavior run roughshod over peoples rights. Hell my girlfriend just recently was forced to publicly apologize at her work because made a fact based statement(and backed it with the research) about the education level of hospital workers and hospital mortality rates. Why? Because she 'offended' a coworker with her statement. She was told by management that the facts don't matter, only thing that was mattered was that the facts she quoted were offensive. And that by discussing those 'offensive' facts openly it could damage the corporation. Ridiculous if you ask me.

I know I can't entirely escape it but I can move to places where government and corporations aren't the literal married couple they are here in the states.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,189
14,114
136
It's funny how conservatives suddenly "fear" our government more than anything. I can't recall such sentiments being expressed prior to 2009.

I also have to wonder, with all this claimed paranoia about government in post after post after post, these alleged fears about surveillance and reprisals, why are they repeatedly voicing these criticisms in a public internet discussion forum?
 
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woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,189
14,114
136
Americans have nearly always believed their nation to be in decline. It's part of our cultural DNA, we always think that disaster is right around the corner. Also, frogs don't actually sit in water like that.

Oh but these are "special" times we live in. It doesn't matter that every other prediction of disaster for the past 220 years hasn't come to pass. These are special times, because WE live in them.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,632
50,852
136
It's funny how conservatives suddenly "fear" our government more than anything. I can't recall such sentiments being expressed prior to 2009.

I also have to wonder, with all this claimed paranoia about government in post after post after post, these alleged fears about surveillance and reprisals, why are they repeatedly voicing these criticisms in a public internet discussion forum?

I did find it pretty telling that people in other threads were relating US action to North Korea by slamming our government on the internet. This is particularly interesting in that in North Korea:

1.) Generally people are cut off from the internet by the government.
2.) No one would DARE post something like that there even if they had access.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,189
14,114
136
I did find it pretty telling that people in other threads were relating US action to North Korea by slamming our government on the internet. This is particularly interesting in that in North Korea:

1.) Generally people are cut off from the internet by the government.
2.) No one would DARE post something like that there even if they had access.

These people know on some level that they are exaggerating these so-called fears. In reality, I'm sure they feel entirely secure in saying whatever the hell they want online, or they wouldn't be saying it. The comparisons to N. Korea, Stalinist Russia and Nazi Germany are for dramatic effect. That, or they are congenitally stupid - publicly posting scathing criticism of what they believe to be a totalitarian police state.

Stupid or full of shit - not very attractive alternatives.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,547
15,421
136
Ok. What party can I choose that will not give us Snowden as a result? There isn't one. Don't like disease? Don't get sick. Don't like getting old? Vote to stay young! There is a much real world control over the government. There is no single entity as powerful as the US government. One call from Biden appears to have Ecuador back pedaling regarding Snowdens asylum. Obama doesn't care what you want or anyone want are have a right to nor does he need to. Corporations are powerful and abusive. I'll be working for one of the worst later this morning but nothing compared to a government prepared to take measures to secure its ongoing policies. The Koch brothers have nothing on J. Edgar Hoover.

Did you vote for bush twice?
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,547
15,421
136
It's funny how conservatives suddenly "fear" our government more than anything. I can't recall such sentiments being expressed prior to 2009.

I also have to wonder, with all this claimed paranoia about government in post after post after post, these alleged fears about surveillance and reprisals, why are they repeatedly voicing these criticisms in a public internet discussion forum?

For the same reason they vote for politicians that are for these policies they are so vehemently against...because they are idiots.