I don't think speaker wire matters in sound system!

[Jerboy]

It is a common belief among many audiophiles that high quality cable means alot in their audio system. Many of the buy the super-duper cable off a role at a store including myself, except it comes from completely different supplier. They get their $5/ft speaker cable from local pro audio shop, circuit city and such. I buy them from Lowe's electrical section or splice apart an old extension cord and use it as a speaker cable. Currently I am using a pair of 12AWG UL certified white flat cable and it sounds fine. I don't go out and spend $50 on the stupid cable, because nobody gave me a good enough reason and I personally can't tell the difference. A friend of mine claims cable quality can influence the maximum volume, extreme high and low frequencies response and distortion characteristic.

When you look at the physics involved in an electrical conductor, there are resistance, inductance, skin effect and capacitance of the insulator. The capacitance of the insulator is so miniscule that it is not an effective factor in audio frequency(10-40,000Hz , We can only hear up to 20,000Hz, but when two waves of different frequency combines it can create different sound even if one of the sound wave is over 20,000Hz) in my opinion so I will eliminate it here.

The difference in maximum volume is inversely proportional to conductor resistance and this is the function of wire thickness and not of whether you have an audiophile cable or average 12AWG braided electrical wire.

Skin effect is detectable at audio frequency, but I doubt there is audible difference between audio cable and cheapo AC cable so I don't think it matters.

Finally the inductance of the conductor. Last time I checked, this is relevant to the length and the magnetic properties of the surrouding material(air) and super-duper audiophile cable has similar inductance as standard AC cable.


As you can see above I have plenty of reasons why I think its equal, yet not a single reason super-duper ultra cable makes the sound better other than psychological thought that owner gets adapted to the thought their system sounds better after dropping $100 on their speaker cable. As long as the primary composition of the conductors in a braided wire is copper, it is going to behave very closely no matter how you label it.

Did I miss something here? I don't have enough proofs to conclude that audiophile cable doesn't make a difference and if you think it makes a difference please reply with good scientific argument. I have heard enough of "The expensive wires are made for audio and they sound better" and that is not what I want to hear for the 100th time.

 

[Turkey]

The main thing is the resistance of the cable, which is determined by (ro)*L/A where ro is the resistivity, L is length, and A is cross sectional area. Resistivity is given by ro = ro0*[1 + (alpha)*(T - T0)] where ro0 is the resistivity at temp T0 and alpha is the sensitivity of the material's resistivity to temperature. The resistivity is governed by the material and any impurities.

A wire is a filter. Period. The resistance and electrical characteristics of the wire can be changed to minimize the filter. The argument isn't whether or not high-quality wires are worth it, it's whether you get 1000x better wire by spending up to 1000x more. The answer is probably not. But if you're worried about spending $8 vs. $50 (or even $500) for your cables, your amp and speakers probably color the sound a lot more than the wire ever would.

The differences in wire are a lot more than width... extremely high end systems might use silver or gold instead of copper with a corresponding increase in price. Even with copper wires, impurities like oxygen lead to different resistances between lengths of wire off the same roll.

And then the most important part of the wire isn't even the electrical properties of the wire itself, but how it's connected to the speaker. I don't know the connections in your system, but just getting a thick round wire and putting it thru the banana jack or binding post doesn't really create a large contact surface. So when you have high current (high volume) going thru the speaker, you might get sparks (very small, but nonetheless there) that really color the sound. So if you go buy an "audio" cable that's made up of tiny wires wound together, they'll be flattened/compressed when you connect them to the components and you'll get a better connection. But even that's not good enough... the best connections are made with binding posts. You soldering the wire to a flat u-shaped piece of metal and connecting that to the binding post. Much much more contact area. But then you have to worry about the solder connection... taken all together, buying premade cables is usually a better way to go.

Most people's amps/speakers color the sound of the music much more than the wire ever would so for most people it's not worth it to spend a lot of money on the wires/connectors, just go get a thick wire. But for people spending $100,000+ on their 2 channel setup, the wire is probably the biggest influence on the "liveness" of the sound. If you can't hear the difference between the two wires, then fine, don't use them, but other people can b/c of their ears/systems, and it's worth it for them.

 

[hinderson]

resistance is THE factor to consider.
the shorter the wier the less resistance.
but a thicker wier can make up for longer wire.
also the kind or wire has a factor.
for instance WILSON audio of provo utah(the most expencive speakers in the world)
uses solid electrical wire type(with a special formula of coppper tin ond other components)
to reduce the resistance.
hope that helps

 

[rimshaker]

Good points. But some super-duper cables actually have innovative features that make them more expensive. I've been through home audio and car audio applications for years. What i've found is that you only need consider the higher quality cables as the length of the cable increases. Signal stregth and interference factors come into play in these situations. You don't want 24awg speaker wire running the entire length of the living room. But you also don't need 8awg monster cable just to stretch a few feet away.

 

[blahblah99]

I use 6 and 4 gauge wires from HOME DEPOT for my amplifiers in my car. At $0.70, it can't be beat in terms of price vs quality. I'd rather get that and spend the rest of the money on a 1F cap to up the OOMF.

 

[Shalmanese]

I am suprised that no super crazy audiophile physist has made some superconducting wire yet, I wonder if you would be able to hear the difference between that and high grade copper?

 

[Insidious]

<< I'd rather get that and spend the rest of the money on a 1F cap to up the OOMF. >>



I don't understand this.... wouldn't that filter out your highs?

 

[Elledan]

<< I am suprised that no super crazy audiophile physist has made some superconducting wire yet, I wonder if you would be able to hear the difference between that and high grade copper? >>

How about making use of quantum entanglement to ensure that there are no losses?

 

[Ralphing]

<<

<< I'd rather get that and spend the rest of the money on a 1F cap to up the OOMF. >>



I don't understand this.... wouldn't that filter out your highs? >>



Either he want's to xover his subs or he's talking about a cap for his amps (I believe the latter).

 

[ttn1]

<< I don't understand this.... wouldn't that filter out your highs? >>



This is for the 12V line. It reduces the "sagging" voltage when your amps draw
huge amounts of current. Important when you want people 10 miles away to
here your bass pump.

edit: I was beat to the punch.

 

[Insidious]

That makes sense... thx!

 

[CTho9305]

it can't be that hard to do a test... get a really really high-quality recorder and player, hook 'em up with cheap stuff, play/record. swap in the audiophile cable, play/record. compare the recordings on a computer.

 

[Jerboy]

<<

And then the most important part of the wire isn't even the electrical properties of the wire itself, but how it's connected to the speaker. I don't know the connections in your system, but just getting a thick round wire and putting it thru the banana jack or binding post doesn't really create a large contact surface. So when you have high current (high volume) going thru the speaker, you might get sparks (very small, but nonetheless there) that really color the sound. >>



Right, but this is another topic, since connection quality plays a role regardless of what kind of cable you use.

I am talking about wires you buy off a roll at a shop vs. Home Depot. I agree that LOC(they call it OFC, but you can't maitain OFC unless you keep it in vacuum or in nitrogen atmosphere) could have very very very slightly lower resistance than equal gauge braided flat cable from electrical supplier at tremendous premium. This can be easily compensated by getting a next lower gauge(lower=fatter) electrical grade wire at much much lower cost.

 

[Jerboy]

<< it can't be that hard to do a test... get a really really high-quality recorder and player, hook 'em up with cheap stuff, play/record. swap in the audiophile cable, play/record. compare the recordings on a computer. >>



How are you going to compare it on the computer? The A-D converter on a $250 consumer grade sound board plays a greater role than different type of wires.

 

[jteef]

I think you need to go and study EM and interconnect theory before you go making statements like this. There are definitely differences between cables and they are very measurable. Whether the effects are audible or not, I cannot say. I've personally never heard a difference, but I also haven't critically compared cheap walmart wire to $1000/foot wire. IMO, there are far too many people who know what they're doing claiming to hear differences to be just a psychological thing. Then again, I haven't heard of a single person passing a blind test.

I dont think the skin effect is a factor at audio frequencies at all. Stranded wire is used to improve flexibility and durability.

I think the differences between the 50 cent / foot and the 5 dollar / foot wires are 99% aesthetic and I wouldn't expect to hear a difference at all. While i've heard systems with $5-10k worth of cables, i've never heard done a comparo.

jt

 

[hinderson]

" I am suprised that no super crazy audiophile physist has made some superconducting wire yet, I wonder if you would be able to hear the difference between that and high grade copper? "
actualy wilson and several others ARE working on this using a simi organtic based near room temp super conducting wire.
also several universatys like ucla mit and afew others are working on near room temp materials that conduct electricty with near 0 resistance

 

[CTho9305]

<<

<< it can't be that hard to do a test... get a really really high-quality recorder and player, hook 'em up with cheap stuff, play/record. swap in the audiophile cable, play/record. compare the recordings on a computer. >>



How are you going to compare it on the computer? The A-D converter on a $250 consumer grade sound board plays a greater role than different type of wires. >>



then CLEARLY the wire doesn't matter, if even a $250 sound card produces more "errors".
there's your proof - the wire doesn't matter.

 

[DaLeroy]

For our 'cheapie' systems, bog standard speaker suffices just fine. Heck, open up your speaker and look inside. See that thin piddly wire connecting the binding post to the driver? Yup, that's a weaker link than your cable connecting your binding post to your amp.

 

[Turkey]

The other thing about resistance is that it varies with frequency. I don't know what effect this has, but here's a description of what's going on. Superduper cables may or may not reduce the relationship between frequency and resistance.

 

[Demon-Xanth]

Cable is really only important in high power applications, the connectors and how they are connected to is more important than the actual cable. A flakey connector can add pops and snaps.

I have a bunch of twinax left from when an office my mom works at during the summer ripped out an IBM System/36 and replaced it with a PC based database they had no use for the stuff. I was thinking that it'd completely eliminate any 60Hz hum by being able to ground the shield and run the signal and common through the center conductors. However the cable was wider than the RCA jacks and there was no easy way to make it look clean w/ the stuff I have laying around. (I'd still like to try it).

 

[spidey07]

It is very difficult to have this discussion because neither side will budge or listen to reason. Both sides can also endlessly post links to prove their point (But everything on the internet is true, right?)

That being said here is my non-technical contribution:

Try different cables for yourself and use the ones YOU like. If you like a coat hanger for your speaker wire then great, if you must spend thousands of dollars to get the sound you like that's fine to. But professing there is no difference or arguing there is (for me there is ) is pointless because peoples brains and hearing are as individual as the listener himself. My hearing is very sensitive though, I generally hear noises that no one around can hear...espeically very high frequencies.



<< I don't go out and spend $50 on the stupid cable, because nobody gave me a good enough reason and I personally can't tell the difference >>

--- seems like you have made up your mind.

Hope this helps. For more fuel to the fire...Interconnects are even MORE important than speaker wire.

 

[GoHAnSoN]

y use anolog ?

a cheap cable will do well if we use digital signal.
right ?

 

[Demon-Xanth]

The amplifier-speaker link is analog, if you're putting digital out on the speaker you've already ditched the idea that sound should be pleasant

 

[Scarpozzi]

The only thing that matters...as it's been said before.... Resistance and shielding. You're going to want to protect yourself from signal loss through length of the cable and of course you want to protect yourself from interference. The biggest problem these days is the salesman in home theater places selling "HIGH QUALITY" cables. I'm not saying buy the cheapest ones, but you can get midgrade cables that will give you the most bang for your buck and you won't be able to tell the difference. Just keep in mind that if you go below 18 guage speakerwire it's wasteful (in my opinion).

 

[blahblah99]

Actually, if you really want to get technical about amplifiers/speakers/wires...

Amplifiers are designed to drive a load within a specific range of resistanceinductance/capacitance. If the load (impedance) on the amplifier falls outside the range, then results outside the performance specification will occur.

When you guys are talking about the difference between 6 gauge wires, 20 gauge wires, and audiophile wires, there's not much difference in terms of RESISTANCE since the resistivity of copper is so minute that with 20 feet of wiring, 0.1 and 0.3 ohms added to a 4 or 8 ohm load will not matter much.


BUT if you account for parasitic inductance and capacitance that the wire holds, that is a different story since it will AFFECT the amplifier much greater and in turn, distort the signal going to the speakers.

Interconnects also play an important role because of the reason mentioned above. Shielded cables will reduce the parasitics but your interconnects will still introduce some.

And no-one likes parasites.