I don't like this. Nope Nope Nope. AUMF for ISIS

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Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
174
106
There's no explicit mention of Assad like the Republicans want, however part of the justification for going after Saddam was his supposed ties to Al-Qaeda. While I doubt Obama will repeat that particular egregious action one never knows, nor do we know what his successor might do.

I'm not following.

He claims Obama's proposed draft could be interpreted to authorize military force against Syria/Assad. I can't see that interpretation.

The 2003 AUMF explicitly specified Iraq as the target.

Obama's draft specifies ISIS and related orgs. Syria is in no way related, they (Syria and ISIS) are fighting each other.

I haven't heard of any Repubs wanting Syria/Assad targeted in the AUMF. A quick google search was no help either. Where are you hearing that the Repubs want Syria/Assad targeted? That would be two separate wars, related only by geographical proximity. That makes no sense to me. Who would take over Syria after we defeated Assad?

Fern
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,268
126
I haven't heard of any Repubs wanting Syria/Assad targeted in the AUMF. A quick google search was no help either. Where are you hearing that the Repubs want Syria/Assad targeted? That would be two separate wars, related only by geographical proximity. That makes no sense to me. Who would take over Syria after we defeated Assad?

Here you go.

You'll note they also want explicit authority given to the President to attack anyone considered a terrorist. It's a blank check.

Nope Nope Nope.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
33,736
17,390
136
I think that's hogwash.

Fascism, communism, socialism and democracy etc, all are ideologies. They can all be fought.

People are people; they die just the same. And there is no such thing as an unlimited source of anything, much less jihadists.

Anybody advocating that we don't fight needs to offer up another way.

Fern

Last time I checked no war defeated socialism or communism, can you name a war that defeated those ideologies? Btw, they still exist and countries still subscribe to them.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,268
126
Last time I checked no war defeated socialism or communism, can you name a war that defeated those ideologies? Btw, they still exist and countries still subscribe to them.

Obama and the next President will find out in maybe five years because while the authorization is for three years no President has been left hanging in the middle of a war and the Pentagon says that long.
 

waggy

No Lifer
Dec 14, 2000
68,143
10
81
I think that's hogwash.

Fascism, communism, socialism and democracy etc, all are ideologies. They can all be fought.

People are people; they die just the same. And there is no such thing as an unlimited source of anything, much less jihadists.

Anybody advocating that we don't fight needs to offer up another way.

Fern


Yes they can be fought. but you aren't going ot win it with bullets. Those are ideologies.
 

unokitty

Diamond Member
Jan 5, 2012
3,346
1
0
I think that's hogwash.

Fascism, communism, socialism and democracy etc, all are ideologies. They can all be fought.

People are people; they die just the same. And there is no such thing as an unlimited source of anything, much less jihadists.

Anybody advocating that we don't fight needs to offer up another way.

Fern

By the end of the war, 7 million tons of bombs had been dropped on Vietnam, Laos, and Cambodia... In addition, poisonous sprays were dropped by planes to destroy trees and any kind of growth - an area the size of the state of Massachusetts was covered with such poison.
The U.S. suffered over 47,000 killed in action plus another 11,000 noncombat deaths; over 150,000 were wounded and 10,000 missing.

Casualties for the Republic of South Vietnam will never be adequately resolved. Low estimates calculate 110,000 combat KIA and a half-million wounded. Civilian loss of life was also very heavy, with the lowest estimates around 415,000.

Similarly, casualty totals among the VC and NVA and the number of dead and wounded civilians in North Vietnam cannot be determined exactly. In April 1995, Vietnam’s communist government said 1.1 million combatants had died between 1954 and 1975, and another 600,000 wounded. Civilian deaths during that time period were estimated at 2 million, but the U.S. estimate of civilians killed in the north at 30,000.
Fighting was easy...

Dropping 7 million tons of bombs on Southeast Asia was easy. Killing over a million people was easy...

Losing was hard...

"There is no instance of a nation benefiting from prolonged warfare...The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting."--Sun Tzu

Fighting in other people civil wars is foolish...

Fighting != Winning

Obama has had 6 years to win the war. And he has failed. Congress passing, or not passing, a resolution doesn't change anything.

This old dog soldier thinks that its time to bring the boys home. All of them...

Uno
 
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Ventanni

Golden Member
Jul 25, 2011
1,432
142
106
I didn't see anything that would seem to authorize war against an official state like Syria.

What did you see in the AUMF that suggests this to you?

Fern

The three primary objectives of AUMF2015 are to legitimately authorize search and rescue missions, conduct special operations against ISIS leadership, and conduct intelligence operations to assist partner forces. That middle part is what scares me the most because anything can become a special operation to take out the head-honcho of a terrorist organization. When your special operations target is a leader who's garrisoned in a city and protected behind 20,000 troops, what does that special operations call for to take him out?

Am I worried Obama will do it? No. I think Obama has been pretty careful throughout this presidency to not let the American war machine get carried away. It's mission creep is what I'm saying. First we dropped bombs from the air. Okay, no problem, but now we're doing the assaulting with special operations teams. Sooner or later, the question is going to be asked, are special operations teams aren't going to be enough? All it takes is some hawkish leadership to continue pushing the issue The last thing I feel we need to do is go in there. This is a political/religious war at its core, and until Sunni and Shia muslims start working together and getting along, some other terrorist organization will rise up and replace ISIS.

Your first sentence is false.

Your second sentence is true.

No, my first statement is true too. Hezbollah, the Shia Islamic militant group of Lebanon, is already openly aiding the Syrian regime. And if "foreign" ground troops enter Syria where Syrians feel are a threat to their sovereignty, it's likely going to draw Iran into the conflict too.

Syria - Shia ruled (Alawite), Sunni population dominant
Lebanon - Very mixed, but Hezbollah is Shia Islam
Iran - Extremely Shia dominant
Iraq - Shia dominant

Turkey - Sunni dominant
Saudi Arabia - Sunni dominant
Jordan - Sunni dominant

It's no surprise that Saudi Arabia, Turkey, and to a smaller extent Jordan - all who are Sunni Islam, want Assad, who is Shia, ousted. Ousting Assad means bringing in Sunni control! And it's not terribly surprising either when Iran, who is the most Shia dominant state of the Middle East, is very actively aiding and defending the Iraqi government, who is also currently dominated by Shia muslims. Is this start to make a little bit more sense to you?

ISIS is very much a Sunni movement in its entirety, and has sprung out of an areas where both Sunnis and Shia muslims have greatly marginalized each other. That makes this, at least in a black and white sense, a Sunni-Shia power struggle very similar to the Catholic-Protestant wars of Europe a few hundred years ago. In other words, not our fight! If we go in and wipe out ISIS, which we very much are capable of, then we've done nothing to change the intolerant behaviors of the Middle Eastern people. What we really need to be doing is partnering with these Middle Eastern countries to help out with the reparations process.

If all we do is blow them to pieces, then all the Sunni majority will see is Americans aiding the very same Shia governments who have suppressed them. No wonder the Middle East hates us!