I am '||' that close to removing linux off my network

Hyperblaze

Lifer
May 31, 2001
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After the fight I'm going through with gentoo to get apache/php5/mysql running on there, I'm thinking of just going the painless route and installing freebsd 6.0 on there.

Trying to think of reasons to keep linux over freebsd. any help?
 

Smilin

Diamond Member
Mar 4, 2002
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Because you dislike the stability and security offered by well controlled OS development especially one with such a solid history like BSD?
 

Hyperblaze

Lifer
May 31, 2001
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Originally posted by: Smilin
Because you dislike the stability and security offered by well controlled OS development especially one with such a solid history like BSD?


that really made me laugh, you have no idea.

I honestly think Linux is coming off there sometime this weekend
 

n0cmonkey

Elite Member
Jun 10, 2001
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No, but what problems are you having?

I'd rather install Dragonfly or NetBSD than FreeBSD. :p
 

Nothinman

Elite Member
Sep 14, 2001
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You're running Gentoo and then complaining about quality? How's that for irony?

Linux has nothing to do with your problems, they're Gentoo related. And if they're not Gentoo related, you'll have the exact same problems on FreeBSD since Apache/PHP/MySQL are exactly the same regardless of the host OS.
 

corinthos

Golden Member
Mar 22, 2000
1,858
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Try Slackware and be happy...

FreeBSD is nice too... but if you're used to Linux, give Slack a try...
 

Hyperblaze

Lifer
May 31, 2001
10,027
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Originally posted by: Nothinman
You're running Gentoo and then complaining about quality? How's that for irony?

Linux has nothing to do with your problems, they're Gentoo related. And if they're not Gentoo related, you'll have the exact same problems on FreeBSD since Apache/PHP/MySQL are exactly the same regardless of the host OS.

I am aware Linux has nothing to do with my problems. It's gentoo. Ironicly, gentoo is just about the last distro of linux that I actually like.

I'm not entirely sure when the problems I'm facing with php5 are going to be over in gentoo, but if freebsd offers a rather nice alternative, why just not use it?
 

Nothinman

Elite Member
Sep 14, 2001
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Because it's FreeBSD and the pkg_* tools and ports system are crap compared to the package management tools in Debian. But if you actually like the crap in Gentoo, FreeBSD might not seem too bad to you.
 

Hyperblaze

Lifer
May 31, 2001
10,027
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Originally posted by: corinthos
Try Slackware and be happy...

FreeBSD is nice too... but if you're used to Linux, give Slack a try...

Grew up on slackware actually. I just found gentoo the most entertaining (since I can't call it "easiest") to update.

 

Hyperblaze

Lifer
May 31, 2001
10,027
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Originally posted by: Nothinman
Because it's FreeBSD and the pkg_* tools and ports system are crap compared to the package management tools in Debian. But if you actually like the crap in Gentoo, FreeBSD might not seem too bad to you.

I tried Debian a while back, and didn't like it. Just not for me. As weird as this sound, no chemistry.

Actually, I love the ports system in freebsd :D
 

Nothinman

Elite Member
Sep 14, 2001
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It takes a little bit to get used to the way the Debian system works, but once you're in and you realize how much more cohesive and clean the sytem is, you won't want to use anything else.
 

drag

Elite Member
Jul 4, 2002
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I found http://www.togaware.com/linux/survivor/ helpfull with dealing with Debian, even if it is for Desktop stuff.

For a server just setup Debian Stable and thats it. I don't do much in the way of web developement, but from what I've heard Debian has one of the better Apache + supported software setups aviable.

The most difficult thing to deal with with Debian, in my experiance, is working my head around to learn to live with the apt-get/dpkg stuff. (originally learned Linux with Redhat, but moved to Slackware, which I liked, but with a entirely different philosophy) It's a very dominate part of the system and everything is geared toward making it work in the system.

But it ensures that everything actually works as the package maintainers intended, which ultimately saves a lot of work for you. With a very complex website the 'software stack' can get very deep. You have php version this, php-mod version that, apache version y, mysql database version x, kernel version x.y.z, built by gcc compiler a, and this or that version 2.0, and maybe a half of dozen other packages and php modules, or whatever bits of code you pull from whatever library.

You do a upgrade and any of those changes create a incompatability then at least a part of your website is hosed.

Then when you take into account that by compiling your own software from code, with different optimizations, make options, dependancies, you can be affecting any of those before mentioned packages in any hundred numbers of ways.

So you have all these variables, maybe hundreds of them, and any single one of them, or unlikely combination of them, can potentionally cause you greif. Weither it's bad programming choices on your own, or bad make/dependancies combinations/choices, or software bugs, or anything...

That's why that although I think Gentoo does a lot of stuff that is cool, I can't imagine that quality control among the actual software and software packages can ever be that great.

With Debian Stable your dealing with a relatively static enviroment. If you have a problem or need to file a bug report you simply have to tell your problem, you attemtps to fix it/troubleshoot it, etc, and that your using software x, y, and z from Debian stable. The Debian developer in charge of that actual peice of software would know the dependancies, the make options, the patches applied, by default. And other users are going to be using the same exact software as you do so that when looking for help it's easier that way.

Also when you do upgrades you know that it would have to be done for a reason. When you have to upgrade a package you know that it's not because company X released a new minor version, but most likely because there was a serious bug or security flaw that has been fixed.

That way once you know that something works.. it's going to keep on working for the next few years. You get to spend your time improving it or working on something else rather then having to put out fires.

That's not to say that your not going to find bugs.. all software has bugs.. but at least your bugs will be consistant with other people's and work arounds can be shared.

It's a rigid system, but it's well thought out. You have details like 'alternatives' for selecting defaults between programs that have similar functionality.. you have the ability to rebuild packages from source if your realy realy have to for whatever reason. You can pull down packages from testing or sid if you need the latest and greatest features for whatever reason, but only upgrading the packages that are needed to get that to work and leaving the rest of the system untouched. Things like that.
 

nweaver

Diamond Member
Jan 21, 2001
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Hardcore gentoo guy, moved to Debian and like it better. Updates are much faster, stability is better.

and tbh, emerge apache php mysql isn't too tough, and I have never had a problem with that.
 

n0cmonkey

Elite Member
Jun 10, 2001
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Originally posted by: Nothinman
Because it's FreeBSD and the pkg_* tools and ports system are crap compared to the package management tools in Debian. But if you actually like the crap in Gentoo, FreeBSD might not seem too bad to you.

:roll:
 

n0cmonkey

Elite Member
Jun 10, 2001
42,936
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Originally posted by: Malak
Originally posted by: Nothinman
You could always use Windows.

And pay for a license for something that's just going to add more complications? Yea, that seems smart.

Says you.

Hmmm, Hyperblaze likes FreeBSD. He enjoys a bit of Gentoo. Based on those two little facts, I'm guessing that he'd agree with Nothinman on this one.
 

drag

Elite Member
Jul 4, 2002
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Originally posted by: n0cmonkey
Originally posted by: Malak
Originally posted by: Nothinman
You could always use Windows.

And pay for a license for something that's just going to add more complications? Yea, that seems smart.

Says you.

Hmmm, Hyperblaze likes FreeBSD. He enjoys a bit of Gentoo. Based on those two little facts, I'm guessing that he'd agree with Nothinman on this one.

The thought of having to run Apache, MySQL, PHP, and assorted mods, etc etc AND keep it up to date, have the important security patches aplied, on a operating system that has NO package management system whatsoever?!

The Horror, The Horror.

Hell, freaking Slackware makes it easier to manage and keep software up to date then Windows does. At least with slack I could whip up a nice bash script to poll the package servers to check for new packages and such. I could even automate downloading and installing packages.. and even give myself a nice little shiny red button on my desktop to do it.. at most it would be like a half hour of my time.

I would prefer OS X with third party tools like Gentoo for Mac or Fink over Windows... And that is saying alot.

Plus Apache's support for Windows (and visa versa) is half-@ssed anyways. To get a web server that works properly with Windows you'd have to spring for Win2003 to avoid get the version that doesn't suck. And that's going to be like a thousand bucks for a retail version or around 400 dollars + the cost of a new computer. And I don't know about the database pricing to go with it or the ability of IIS 6 to run PHP-generated websites.

FreeBSD is heaven compared to all that noise.
 

Nothinman

Elite Member
Sep 14, 2001
30,672
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Says you.

Duh. And I can't see how you could disagree considering that Apache, PHP and MySQL are all developed on unix systems. Apache just became non-sucky on Windows recently in Apache2 and it looks like PHP is still marked experimental when run on Windows/Apache2.

Keeping them updated on a Debian system is as simple as installing apticron and running 'apt-get upgrade' when it emails you about an update. AFAIK there's nothing like that for Windows so you'll end up looking for updates manually and installing them manually.

 

M00T

Golden Member
Mar 12, 2000
1,214
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Originally posted by: The Linuxator
All that I can say use Fedora Core 4 and be happy :D just like me ;).



Hah... did you actually read what he is trying to do?

I doubt you'll ever solve the RPM hell that scenario would create.
 

kamper

Diamond Member
Mar 18, 2003
5,513
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Originally posted by: M00T
Originally posted by: The Linuxator
All that I can say use Fedora Core 4 and be happy :D just like me ;).
Hah... did you actually read what he is trying to do?

I doubt you'll ever solve the RPM hell that scenario would create.
WTF? It's not really that hard. Something along the lines of 'yum install php-mysql' would drag the whole lot in automatically. It'd be pretty sad if there was a distro that couldn't pull off one of the single most common combinations of software that runs on linux (forgiving gentoo because they're purposely avoiding the easiest route).