I’m off the Trump Train

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Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
56,511
16,225
146
Like what though? I hear about transgender stuff but it seems like it’s been a while since I’ve really heard much about gay rights. I’m sure there may be little pockets of it in podunk Louisiana but by and large I don’t hear much about it. Then again I’m not looking for it either so maybe that’s just all off my radar?

This right here shows me you do not know a single gay person on any kind of a personal level or on social media.

It also shows a perfect example of what "privilege" is. As rights are threatened and violated on a daily basis for an entire group of people in the very country you live in, you are blissfully ignorant to that because you're not them.

Here's a list for you of just how anti-LGBTQ this admin has been:


  1. Opposition to the Equality Act: Despite support from almost every segment of the U.S. population and a majority of Republicans, President Trump opposed the Equality Act. Last month, the House passed the Equality Act, voting to guarantee critical non-discrimination protections for LGBTQ people among other crucial rights.
  2. Appointed horrifically anti-LGBTQ judges: Trump has appointed anti-LGBTQ judges with alarming anti-LGBTQ records to appointments at every level of the judicial system, including anti-equality Supreme Court Justices Gorsuch and Kavanaugh.
  3. Joked about Pence’s desire to hang gay people: In 2017, Trump joked about Vice President Pence’s anti-gay agenda saying “Don’t ask that guy—he wants to hang them all!”
In the Workplace

  1. Banned transgender service members from the military: Against the expert advice of military leadership, medical authorities, budget analysts, 70% of Americans and the armed forces of allied countries, Trump and Pence banned transgender people from serving in the military.
  2. Rolled back Obama-era non-discrimination protections: Trump’s Department of Justice upended previous DOJ interpretations of the Civil Rights Act that protect transgender and non-binary workers from employment discrimination and ceased enforcing non-discrimination protections as well as taking a hostile stance to LGBTQ workers in court.
  3. Planned new rules to license discrimination: Trump’s Department of Labor issued a directive designed to allow federal contractors to claim a religious exemption to fire LGBTQ workers because of their sexual orientation or gender identity.
  4. Kicked people living with HIV out of the military because of their status: The Department of Defense instituted a “Deploy or Get Out” policy, which would remove military personnel living with HIV from service solely because of their status.
  5. Created a hostile work environment for LGBTQ federal employees: According to Politico: “[The Trump administration] fostered a climate where six staffers who are LGBT described removing their wedding rings before coming to work in the morning, taking down photos of their partners and families or ultimately finding new jobs further away from certain political appointees. They did not want to be identified; two said they feared being reassigned for being gay.”
In Health Care

  1. Section 1557 Rule: HHS just published a proposed major change to the administrative rule interpreting Section 1557 of the Affordable Care Act (ACA) to remove explicit protections for LGBTQ people in healthcare programs and activities by excluding LGBTQ people from protections from discrimination based on sex stereotyping and gender identity.
  2. Advocated for the elimination of the entire Affordable Care Act: The Justice Department issued a legal filing arguing that the entirety of the Affordable Care Act should be overturned. This move would jeopardize health care for over 130 million people with preexisting conditions like HIV and eliminate non-discrimination protections for LGBTQ people.
  3. Created a Religious Discrimination Division: HHS created a new office whose sole purpose would be to defend physicians and other medical professionals who decide to refuse care, including to LGBTQ patients.
  4. Proposed cutting over $1.35 billion from PEPFAR budget: In his proposed FY 2019 budget, Trump cut $1.35 billion from, or 29% of, PEPFAR’s budget. PEPFAR is the U.S. government program that fights AIDS abroad.
In Schools

  1. Guidance for Schools on Transgender Students: The Departments of Education and Justice eliminated Obama-era guidance clarifying that schools must treat transgender students consistent with their identity. This encourages schools officials to permit harassment of transgender students, deny access to facilities consistent with gender identity, and refuse to use correct names and pronouns -- all inflicting untold emotional harm.
  2. Rejected Complaints From Transgender Students: The Department of Education refused to respond to civil complaints filed by transgender students, including those who were barred from using bathrooms that correspond with their gender identity. This increases the burden for transgender students to combat these harmful policies.
  3. Suggested it is acceptable for schools to discriminate against LGBTQ students while accepting tax-payer funds: Secretary of Education Betsy DeVos has refused to rule out federal funding for schools that discriminate against LGBTQ students and has declined to state she would otherwise intervene should discrimination occur.
  4. Sexual Assault: DeVos rescinded Title IX rules related to schools’ obligations to address sexual harassment, including sexual violence. By eliminating the Obama-era rules, DeVos increased the standard of proof from “preponderance of the evidence” to “clear and convincing evidence” making it more difficult for survivors of sexual assault to obtain justice. LGBTQ people are disproportionately affected by sexual assault and harassment, and the stigma that many LGBTQ people face can make it more difficult for survivors to report.
  5. Eliminated language protecting LGBTQ children participating in the 4-H program: The Trump-Pence Administration ordered 4-H programs to remove a policy specifically welcoming LGBTQ children in the 4-H program, which led to the firing of an official who protested.
In Housing

  1. Allowed emergency shelters to deny access to transgender people: Despite the fact that LGBTQ people are significantly more likely to experience homelessness in their lives, HUD Secretary Ben Carson has proposed a rule to permit emergency shelters to deny access or otherwise discriminate against transgender persons who are homeless. HUD also canceled a scheduled survey on LGBTQ homelessness.
  2. Placed transgender prisoners in the wrong prison: The Federal Bureau of Prisons (BOP) rolled back an Obama-era policy that housed transgender prisoners consistent with their gender identity. With transgender people experiencing sexual assault at higher rates than average, this decision only puts them at further risk of assault.
In Families

  1. Allowing foster care programs to discriminate while accepting tax-payer funds: Trump undermined an Obama-era rule that banned discrimination on the basis of religion by foster care organizations receiving federal funds from HHS. This change could prevent thousands of LGBTQ parents from being able to provide stable and loving homes for over 400,000 children in foster care nationwide.
  2. Refusing visas to partners of diplomats: The State Department began refusing visas for same-sex partners of some diplomats and U.N. workers if they are not married
  3. Changed rules to deny surrogate born children citizenship: The Trump Administration has interpreted immigration rules specifically so the child of a same-sex couple born abroad via surrogate would be considered "born out of wedlock" and making it more difficult to obtain U.S. citizenship
In Representation

  1. Erased transgender people: Trump’s HHS proposed a new definition that would narrowly define sex as either male or female, unchangeable, and determined by birth. According to the New York Times: “The new definition would essentially eradicate federal recognition of the estimated 1.4 million [transgender] Americans.” In addition, agency staff, including those at the Centers for Disease Control, have been instructed to stop using the word transgender in official reports.
  2. Eliminated information on LGBTQ rights, mentions, and representation on government websites: Within hours of Trump’s swearing-in, pages on LGBTQ rights and recognition were removed from government websites, including the White House.
  3. Blocked questions regarding sexual orientation from consideration for the census: Trump and Pence have sought to block questions on sexual orientation from the census in order to erase LGBTQ people from official counts. This would, in turn, prevent the collection of crucial data that could help improve government programs and resources for LGBTQ people.
  4. Refused to recognize LGBTQ people in National AIDS day Address: Despite being the community most affected by the epidemic, Vice President Pence has consistently refused to acknowledge LGBTQ people in his addresses on National AIDS day.
In the World:

  1. Embassy Pride Flags: Pence defended the State Department directive to ban U.S. embassies across the world from flying the LGBTQ Pride Flag during Pride Month.
  2. Left the U.N. Human Rights Council: Trump and Pence, over LGBTQ and other issues, removed the United States from the U.N. Human Rights Council.
  3. Chechnya: Trump and Pence refused to condemn attacks on LGBTQ people in Chechnya, where atrocities against queer people are horrific and ongoing.
 

ch33zw1z

Lifer
Nov 4, 2004
38,156
18,647
146
This right here shows me you do not know a single gay person on any kind of a personal level or on social media.

It also shows a perfect example of what "privilege" is. As rights are threatened and violated on a daily basis for an entire group of people in the very country you live in, you are blissfully ignorant to that because you're not them.

Here's a list for you of just how anti-LGBTQ this admin has been:


  1. Opposition to the Equality Act: Despite support from almost every segment of the U.S. population and a majority of Republicans, President Trump opposed the Equality Act. Last month, the House passed the Equality Act, voting to guarantee critical non-discrimination protections for LGBTQ people among other crucial rights.
  2. Appointed horrifically anti-LGBTQ judges: Trump has appointed anti-LGBTQ judges with alarming anti-LGBTQ records to appointments at every level of the judicial system, including anti-equality Supreme Court Justices Gorsuch and Kavanaugh.
  3. Joked about Pence’s desire to hang gay people: In 2017, Trump joked about Vice President Pence’s anti-gay agenda saying “Don’t ask that guy—he wants to hang them all!”
In the Workplace

  1. Banned transgender service members from the military: Against the expert advice of military leadership, medical authorities, budget analysts, 70% of Americans and the armed forces of allied countries, Trump and Pence banned transgender people from serving in the military.
  2. Rolled back Obama-era non-discrimination protections: Trump’s Department of Justice upended previous DOJ interpretations of the Civil Rights Act that protect transgender and non-binary workers from employment discrimination and ceased enforcing non-discrimination protections as well as taking a hostile stance to LGBTQ workers in court.
  3. Planned new rules to license discrimination: Trump’s Department of Labor issued a directive designed to allow federal contractors to claim a religious exemption to fire LGBTQ workers because of their sexual orientation or gender identity.
  4. Kicked people living with HIV out of the military because of their status: The Department of Defense instituted a “Deploy or Get Out” policy, which would remove military personnel living with HIV from service solely because of their status.
  5. Created a hostile work environment for LGBTQ federal employees: According to Politico: “[The Trump administration] fostered a climate where six staffers who are LGBT described removing their wedding rings before coming to work in the morning, taking down photos of their partners and families or ultimately finding new jobs further away from certain political appointees. They did not want to be identified; two said they feared being reassigned for being gay.”
In Health Care

  1. Section 1557 Rule: HHS just published a proposed major change to the administrative rule interpreting Section 1557 of the Affordable Care Act (ACA) to remove explicit protections for LGBTQ people in healthcare programs and activities by excluding LGBTQ people from protections from discrimination based on sex stereotyping and gender identity.
  2. Advocated for the elimination of the entire Affordable Care Act: The Justice Department issued a legal filing arguing that the entirety of the Affordable Care Act should be overturned. This move would jeopardize health care for over 130 million people with preexisting conditions like HIV and eliminate non-discrimination protections for LGBTQ people.
  3. Created a Religious Discrimination Division: HHS created a new office whose sole purpose would be to defend physicians and other medical professionals who decide to refuse care, including to LGBTQ patients.
  4. Proposed cutting over $1.35 billion from PEPFAR budget: In his proposed FY 2019 budget, Trump cut $1.35 billion from, or 29% of, PEPFAR’s budget. PEPFAR is the U.S. government program that fights AIDS abroad.
In Schools

  1. Guidance for Schools on Transgender Students: The Departments of Education and Justice eliminated Obama-era guidance clarifying that schools must treat transgender students consistent with their identity. This encourages schools officials to permit harassment of transgender students, deny access to facilities consistent with gender identity, and refuse to use correct names and pronouns -- all inflicting untold emotional harm.
  2. Rejected Complaints From Transgender Students: The Department of Education refused to respond to civil complaints filed by transgender students, including those who were barred from using bathrooms that correspond with their gender identity. This increases the burden for transgender students to combat these harmful policies.
  3. Suggested it is acceptable for schools to discriminate against LGBTQ students while accepting tax-payer funds: Secretary of Education Betsy DeVos has refused to rule out federal funding for schools that discriminate against LGBTQ students and has declined to state she would otherwise intervene should discrimination occur.
  4. Sexual Assault: DeVos rescinded Title IX rules related to schools’ obligations to address sexual harassment, including sexual violence. By eliminating the Obama-era rules, DeVos increased the standard of proof from “preponderance of the evidence” to “clear and convincing evidence” making it more difficult for survivors of sexual assault to obtain justice. LGBTQ people are disproportionately affected by sexual assault and harassment, and the stigma that many LGBTQ people face can make it more difficult for survivors to report.
  5. Eliminated language protecting LGBTQ children participating in the 4-H program: The Trump-Pence Administration ordered 4-H programs to remove a policy specifically welcoming LGBTQ children in the 4-H program, which led to the firing of an official who protested.
In Housing

  1. Allowed emergency shelters to deny access to transgender people: Despite the fact that LGBTQ people are significantly more likely to experience homelessness in their lives, HUD Secretary Ben Carson has proposed a rule to permit emergency shelters to deny access or otherwise discriminate against transgender persons who are homeless. HUD also canceled a scheduled survey on LGBTQ homelessness.
  2. Placed transgender prisoners in the wrong prison: The Federal Bureau of Prisons (BOP) rolled back an Obama-era policy that housed transgender prisoners consistent with their gender identity. With transgender people experiencing sexual assault at higher rates than average, this decision only puts them at further risk of assault.
In Families

  1. Allowing foster care programs to discriminate while accepting tax-payer funds: Trump undermined an Obama-era rule that banned discrimination on the basis of religion by foster care organizations receiving federal funds from HHS. This change could prevent thousands of LGBTQ parents from being able to provide stable and loving homes for over 400,000 children in foster care nationwide.
  2. Refusing visas to partners of diplomats: The State Department began refusing visas for same-sex partners of some diplomats and U.N. workers if they are not married
  3. Changed rules to deny surrogate born children citizenship: The Trump Administration has interpreted immigration rules specifically so the child of a same-sex couple born abroad via surrogate would be considered "born out of wedlock" and making it more difficult to obtain U.S. citizenship
In Representation

  1. Erased transgender people: Trump’s HHS proposed a new definition that would narrowly define sex as either male or female, unchangeable, and determined by birth. According to the New York Times: “The new definition would essentially eradicate federal recognition of the estimated 1.4 million [transgender] Americans.” In addition, agency staff, including those at the Centers for Disease Control, have been instructed to stop using the word transgender in official reports.
  2. Eliminated information on LGBTQ rights, mentions, and representation on government websites: Within hours of Trump’s swearing-in, pages on LGBTQ rights and recognition were removed from government websites, including the White House.
  3. Blocked questions regarding sexual orientation from consideration for the census: Trump and Pence have sought to block questions on sexual orientation from the census in order to erase LGBTQ people from official counts. This would, in turn, prevent the collection of crucial data that could help improve government programs and resources for LGBTQ people.
  4. Refused to recognize LGBTQ people in National AIDS day Address: Despite being the community most affected by the epidemic, Vice President Pence has consistently refused to acknowledge LGBTQ people in his addresses on National AIDS day.
In the World:

  1. Embassy Pride Flags: Pence defended the State Department directive to ban U.S. embassies across the world from flying the LGBTQ Pride Flag during Pride Month.
  2. Left the U.N. Human Rights Council: Trump and Pence, over LGBTQ and other issues, removed the United States from the U.N. Human Rights Council.
  3. Chechnya: Trump and Pence refused to condemn attacks on LGBTQ people in Chechnya, where atrocities against queer people are horrific and ongoing.

Manual like, at least you put in the effort, im not convinced it will matter
 

Perknose

Forum Director & Omnipotent Overlord
Forum Director
Oct 9, 1999
46,554
9,905
146
Can you show me who and where though? If it’s been posted above already my apologies I must have missed it. What high ranking GOP official is pushing for unequal rights for gays?

Is the man who holds the second highest office in the land not enough for you?

Right in my post just above:

"Mike Pence his vice president, a man who, as a congressional candidate, endorsed conversion therapy and who, as governor of Indiana, defunded H.I.V./AIDs testing and prevention — an action that may well have led to a record outbreakof the disease in that state."

I am astounded that you . . . somehow . . . could have missed that. And, before you do some more "thinking" that maybe Pence has changed his spots, please use some FACTS to do so, as in contemporary statements from Pence that espouse different views.
 
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UglyCasanova

Lifer
Mar 25, 2001
19,275
1,361
126
Thank you Amused, I’ve skimmed through that and will read in more detail later. Much of that seems to pertain to transgenders though which is a different thing altogether so not indicative of a push against gay rights.
 

ch33zw1z

Lifer
Nov 4, 2004
38,156
18,647
146
Thank you Amused, I’ve skimmed through that and will read in more detail later. Much of that seems to pertain to transgenders though which is a different thing altogether so not indicative of a push against gay rights.

LGBTQ includes both, duh. Evangelicals, like Pence, see no difference. And they're a huge portion of the GOP voters, huge.
 

UglyCasanova

Lifer
Mar 25, 2001
19,275
1,361
126
Is the man who holds the second highest office in the land not enough for you?

Right in my post just above:

"Mike Pence his vice president, a man who, as a congressional candidate, endorsed conversion therapy and who, as governor of Indiana, defunded H.I.V./AIDs testing and prevention — an action that may well have led to a record outbreakof the disease in that state."

I am astounded that you . . . somehow . . . could have missed that. And, before you do some more "thinking" that maybe Pence has changed his spots, please use some FACTS to do so, as in contemporary statements from Pence that espouse different views.


I do agree about Mike Pence, he’s notoriously anti gay. I’d argue he’s much farther to the right than most republicans, certainly most republicans 40 and under.

Also why be so hostile in the last sentence. I didn’t attack you or anything, just having a discussion. It might be me misreading it but caps comes across as shouting and the quotes around me “thinking” just seems unnecessarily harsh towards me. :confused:
 
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Perknose

Forum Director & Omnipotent Overlord
Forum Director
Oct 9, 1999
46,554
9,905
146
I do agree about Mike Pence, he’s notoriously anti gay. I’d argue he’s much farther to the right than most republicans, certainly most republicans 40 and under.

Also why do hostile in the last sentence. I didn’t attack you or anything, just having a discussion. It might be me misreading it but caps comes across as shouting and the quotes around me “thinking” just seems unnecessarily harsh towards me. :confused:
Why are you being so hostile and attacking in your parsing of my reply to you?

You seizing on the fact that I capitalized but one word in my response seems thoroughly unfair and an unnecessarily harsh attack on me.

It feels definitely oppressive that I have to defend my capitalization of "FACTS," but I will do so:

I merely wanted to make sure you used some in the course of this discussion. Up to and including now, not only have you not, at all, as in not one, but you also . . . seem . . . to have gone to great lengths to disregard and dismiss the many contravening facts presented to you by multiple posters.

It feels almost as if you are not arguing in good faith. There is most certainly a ton of evidence all through your replies that would support that feeling. Of course, I apologize in advance if that is not the case.
 
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UglyCasanova

Lifer
Mar 25, 2001
19,275
1,361
126
I disagree but than you for clarifying, like I said maybe I was just misreading that. I responded back to several posts about the differences in transgender rights vs gay rights and also how comfort levels were different than an attack on rights. I’m not sure if that counts as posting facts or not but it does seem like valid arguements. The arguing in good faith thing I don’t get, like I’ve said on here before I’m not a troll and the things I post are my own personal opinions on things (thus they would be in good faith).
 

Perknose

Forum Director & Omnipotent Overlord
Forum Director
Oct 9, 1999
46,554
9,905
146
The arguing in good faith thing I don’t get, like I’ve said on here before I’m not a troll and the things I post are my own personal opinions on things (thus they would be in good faith).
Well, ok, cool, you're not a troll. And what you post is your "own personal opinions on things." Also cool.

It's just when multiple posters present you with verifiable facts that contravene your personal opinions, you seem to dismiss them and hold fast to your personal opinions.

That would be the part where an observer might get the idea that you are, in fact, not arguing in good faith . . . even though, as you yourself assure us right here, you are not a troll and are arguing in good faith.

This unfortunate state of affairs leads to some confusion about your motives, which I hope you can understand, even as you disagree. It's what I mean when, previously, I have stated that many of your posts are virtually indistinguishable from those of a clever troll. It's exactly how a very clever troll would proceed . . . a very clever troll indeed! Not that you are one! I have stated more than once that I don't believe you are. I sincerely don't!

The only other explanation I can come up with, however, is that you are intellectually unable to assimilate facts that contravene your deeply held opinions. That would be a terribly demeaning view of you to hold, and so I can not bring myself to do so.

It's quite the quandary, my friend!
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
I also fear what the Repub "fear and smear" machine would do with Mayor Pete being gay, and I have ZERO discomfort with gays whatsoever. Jhhnn has given no evidence ever of being homophobic, in fact, quite the contrary. Your accusation against him is a baseless slur.

He seems to do a lot of that.
 

thilanliyan

Lifer
Jun 21, 2005
11,944
2,173
126
Trump is not a conservative, he’s an opportunist who has tried to make himself appeal to conservatives. And it worked.
And I'm guessing lots of those people will still vote Rep...cause anything is better than being a Dem right? :D
 

brycejones

Lifer
Oct 18, 2005
27,577
26,670
136
Thank you Amused, I’ve skimmed through that and will read in more detail later. Much of that seems to pertain to transgenders though which is a different thing altogether so not indicative of a push against gay rights.

LGBTQ, there is no difference between transgender discrimination and discrimination against gays
 

UglyCasanova

Lifer
Mar 25, 2001
19,275
1,361
126
It's just when multiple posters present you with verifiable facts that contravene your personal opinions, you seem to dismiss them and hold fast to your personal opinions.


I’m thinking there may be confusion here (maybe I’m the one confused) and the things said. When talking about gay rights but presented with stats about comfort levels with LGBT people I think those are two different things, just like how transgenderism and homosexuality are two different things. You did point out about Mike Pence and his anti gay positions later on which I do agree with you on, and Amused laid out different points also on it (a lot of it had to do with transgenderism though).

Like I said there may just be some confusion on this but I’m not trolling nor arguing in bad faith. Some of the verifiable facts laid out though I just disagree pertained to gay rights.
 

UglyCasanova

Lifer
Mar 25, 2001
19,275
1,361
126
LGBTQ, there is no difference between transgender discrimination and discrimination against gays


I and many others disagree with that though. Homosexuality and transgenderism are two distinct things that for some reason are lumped together but imo shouldn’t be.
 

ch33zw1z

Lifer
Nov 4, 2004
38,156
18,647
146
I and many others disagree with that though. Homosexuality and transgenderism are two distinct things that for some reason are lumped together but imo shouldn’t be.

Discrimination based on either is still discrimination, and it makes no difference to a huge amount of GOP voters. Something you're willing ignoring.

The reason that it's LGBTQ is the fight for rights started with homosexuality, and grew over time to ecompass other categories of people that have been treated by society in a similar way for a long time.

The only reason someone would want it treated separately is because that would allow for persecution of one group while claiming they accept another. "See, we're open minded, but gotta take it slow, you know"

Stop making excuses for persecution of people you disagree with.
 

Commodus

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2004
9,215
6,818
136
I and many others disagree with that though. Homosexuality and transgenderism are two distinct things that for some reason are lumped together but imo shouldn’t be.

I'd say they have plenty in common, though. In both cases, they're people whose sexuality isn't 'normal' due to biological factors they can't change, and for whom discrimination and stigmatization are still common problems. You don't want to treat things exactly the same, but at the same time, it feels like discrimination against transgender people is repeating the anti-gay discrimination from 15-20 years ago. That is, many people still cling to bogus stereotypes and treat this community as inherently 'broken.'
 

UglyCasanova

Lifer
Mar 25, 2001
19,275
1,361
126
Given the new rules I’ve decided to take you off my ignore list just now to see how it goes.

I disagree with that though, there is a difference though and it’s not just taking it slow. People see a distinct difference between the two. I don’t think anyone should be persecuted but I do think there’s dangers in trying to normalize transgenderism that doesn’t exist with homosexuality. We are seeing more and more younger people taking hormone therapy and doing things to radically alter their bodies as a result of this push and that’s not a healthy thing for society in my and many others opinions. There’s a big difference between who you are sexually attracted to and believing that your body needs to be altered to something that it’s not to fit something that’s argued to be a made up social construct. The two are very different things.

Edit: this was a response to cheesewiz not commodus
 

ch33zw1z

Lifer
Nov 4, 2004
38,156
18,647
146
Given the new rules I’ve decided to take you off my ignore list just now to see how it goes.

I disagree with that though, there is a difference though and it’s not just taking it slow. People see a distinct difference between the two. I don’t think anyone should be persecuted but I do think there’s dangers in trying to normalize transgenderism that doesn’t exist with homosexuality. We are seeing more and more younger people taking hormone therapy and doing things to radically alter their bodies as a result of this push and that’s not a healthy thing for society in my and many others opinions. There’s a big difference between who you are sexually attracted to and believing that your body needs to be altered to something that it’s not to fit something that’s argued to be a made up social construct. The two are very different things.

Edit: this was a response to cheesewiz not commodus

None of which justifies discrimination, by you or your elected officials, which the point you keep ignoring. Tell us again how you aren't trolling, while you continue to excuse discrimination against your fellow Americans cuz reasons.
 

UglyCasanova

Lifer
Mar 25, 2001
19,275
1,361
126
I'd say they have plenty in common, though. In both cases, they're people whose sexuality isn't 'normal' due to biological factors they can't change, and for whom discrimination and stigmatization are still common problems. You don't want to treat things exactly the same, but at the same time, it feels like discrimination against transgender people is repeating the anti-gay discrimination from 15-20 years ago. That is, many people still cling to bogus stereotypes and treat this community as inherently 'broken.'


I get what you’re saying and agree with it somewhat, but I do think they are different things though that are lumped together due to some similarities which ignores all of the differences. I don’t think that anyone should be persecuted and that’s not what I’m advocating for, but I also don’t think that normalizing transgenderism is healthy at all and I do see it as being a form of a mental illness.
 

brycejones

Lifer
Oct 18, 2005
27,577
26,670
136
I and many others disagree with that though. Homosexuality and transgenderism are two distinct things that for some reason are lumped together but imo shouldn’t be.

amazingly enough the people who actually fall into those categories don’t agree with you
 
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Stryke1983

Member
Jan 1, 2016
176
268
136
Thank you Amused, I’ve skimmed through that and will read in more detail later. Much of that seems to pertain to transgenders though which is a different thing altogether so not indicative of a push against gay rights.

At least half of that enormous list of examples was not specific to transgender people. How much more evidence do you need? You keep saying that the right is beyond their homophobic past. You've just been given plenty of examples of things done by the current administration from the last three years that demonstrate the opposite. You somehow managed to hand-wave away the blatantly homophobic Vice President as somehow not representative of the right. Despite being a prime example of Republican 'values'. You've completely ignored last year's Pew poll where the majority of Republican voters did not support equal rights for gays (marriage).

I'm assuming you are just trolling now. As the evidence is being held in front of your face but you are saying you can't see anything. Let's look at the official positions of some other high profile Republicans. The first three were all major candidates in the last election:

Ted Cruz: Opposes same sex marriage and actively supports disobeying the law in order to avoid enabling it. Thinks homosexuality is a choice. Opposes gay pride marches/events.

Marco Rubio: Opposes same sex marriage.

Jeb Bush: Opposes same sex marriage. Opposes adoption by gay couples. Although he at least respects legal changes that impact these issues, unlike Cruz.

Mitch McConnell: Opposes same sex marriage.

Is that representative enough of the right? Or are all those people somehow 'too right for the right'? I didn't have to dig for any of this. There will be plenty of other examples if you bother to look. Same sex marriage is just the quickest and most obvious sign of the underlying homophobia.

Other than the Republican administration, Republican party and Republican voters, who else do you think composes the 'right'?
 

brycejones

Lifer
Oct 18, 2005
27,577
26,670
136
I also don’t think that normalizing transgenderism is healthy at all and I do see it as being a form of a mental illness.
This right here is the problem it’s views like this that make it more difficult for people to be what they feel on the inside. Contributing to trying to make these people feel shame or afraid of who they really are is going to be a significant factor in any real mental issues they develop.
 
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ch33zw1z

Lifer
Nov 4, 2004
38,156
18,647
146
I get what you’re saying and agree with it somewhat, but I do think they are different things though that are lumped together due to some similarities which ignores all of the differences. I don’t think that anyone should be persecuted and that’s not what I’m advocating for, but I also don’t think that normalizing transgenderism is healthy at all and I do see it as being a form of a mental illness.

So what you're saying is if you consider it a mental illness, then totes ok, and btw this is how persecution of others is justified while keeping your concious clean, all based on your feels...just make up a reason that feels ok, and discriminate away.. I say, fuck your feels.

@Amused - nailed it.
 

UglyCasanova

Lifer
Mar 25, 2001
19,275
1,361
126
None of which justifies discrimination, by you or your elected officials, which the point you keep ignoring. Tell us again how you aren't trolling, while you continue to excuse discrimination against your fellow Americans cuz reasons.


It depends on what you mean by discrimination. I’m not ignoring anything btw. The bathroom issue seemed to be ridiculous and the idea that men were going to become transgender so they could sneak into women’s bathrooms to peak at girls peeing is absurd. But there was a push to make businesses provide a gender neutral bathroom as well as male and female which was also absurd. It’s not discrimination to not want to sink money into doing that. It’s also not discrimination imo to think that biological males have no business playing in female sports, nor is it discrimination when parents have problems with biological males undressing in high school girls locker rooms even if there’s no ill intentions on the part of the trans student. Nor do I find it to be discrimination to not have tax dollars being spent on surgery for this (it’s just a made up social construct right)

In the push to normalize this it seems we could just use our heads to find reasonable outcomes in most cases, but admittedly there are those that don’t want to do so like in the case of passing the bathroom laws. But likewise there are plenty of cases where people say it’s discrimination because society doesn’t bend over backwards over this and I disagree that’s the case.
 

ch33zw1z

Lifer
Nov 4, 2004
38,156
18,647
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It depends on what you mean by discrimination. I’m not ignoring anything btw. The bathroom issue seemed to be ridiculous and the idea that men were going to become transgender so they could sneak into women’s bathrooms to peak at girls peeing is absurd. But there was a push to make businesses provide a gender neutral bathroom as well as male and female which was also absurd. It’s not discrimination to not want to sink money into doing that. It’s also not discrimination imo to think that biological males have no business playing in female sports, nor is it discrimination when parents have problems with biological males undressing in high school girls locker rooms even if there’s no ill intentions on the part of the trans student. Nor do I find it to be discrimination to not have tax dollars being spent on surgery for this (it’s just a made up social construct right)

In the push to normalize this it seems we could just use our heads to find reasonable outcomes in most cases, but admittedly there are those that don’t want to do so like in the case of passing the bathroom laws. But likewise there are plenty of cases where people say it’s discrimination because society doesn’t bend over backwards over this and I disagree that’s the case.

Yea, the only ones I recall are for single occupancy restrooms requiring to be marked as gender neutral, basically meaning a new sign. So not really end of country type of stuff there.

"Bending over backwards", in your words, is akin to making minor allowances for people. Yea, change is hard, and there will be growing pains. In the meantime, try not to encourage persecution of your fellow americans based on your feels.

Edit: heres a current one


Rubio’s bill passed without much fanfare or controversy, and she accepted an amendment from Rep. Rod Montoya, R-Farmington, that makes it clear that these businesses are not expected to build new restroom facilities.

The bill does not include an appropriation. A fiscal impact report says businesses affected by the bill would be responsible for paying for any new signage.

Rep. Phelps Anderson, R-Roswell, asked Rubio what the cost of signage would be for such businesses.

Rubio said based on a study she had done, it would cost Blake’s Lotaburger about $750 to make signs for its roughly 90 New Mexico restaurants.

“That seems like a lot [to spend],” Anderson said.

Ok Anderson, less than $10 per store, lol....
 
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