Hypothetical question: Are we really better off with the Soviet Union dissolved?

beer

Lifer
Jun 27, 2000
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In 1990, the fall of the Soviet Union was seen as a great victory for the United States. We had survived the evils of communism, they say. We prevailed, they lost.

So what is worse off now than it was thirteen years ago?

The world is definitely, without a doubt, less stable. Former soviet WMD components are floating around on the black market and it would be much easier to acquire enough parts now than it would have been in the 80s. Former soviet scientists, some of the brightest intellectuals in the world, can't afford food or housing and are available to the highest bidder. Soviet engineering is essentially public domain - planes and ships, some superior to ours.

The existance of imminent conflict between nation-states could be seen as much more bearable than between a nation-state and a rouge enemy. The principles of MAD held the world together for fifty years. Conflicts like Vietnam and Korea were the result of a containment policy, but nuclear war was averted. The fact that both countries had everything to lose kept people to their senses and their fingers off the triggers. Global conflict was avoided. Terrorists, on the other hand, don't have anything to lose. Bin Laden would not think twice about detonating a nuclear warhead in NYC if he saw it as feasible. Is it arguable that we live in a world now where nuclear attack is more likely than it was in the 80s?

The existance of an equally capable but hostile enemy brought a lot of good to this country. For example, take the space race and the Apollo project. The apollo rocket is the only rocket that has a perfect track record - not a single one has been lost. The space race led to the minaturization and computerization of the world. It also led to incredible strides in materials science. The biggest problem with early designs was getting them back to earth without burning up in the atmosphere - materials that we use in our daily lives are a direct result of the need to bring spacecraft to earth without burning up.

Now, we live in a world of where a single nation is so militarily powerful that words like 'negotation' don't seem to be in the vocabulary. Entities such as the UN have no bearing in the world anymore. The existance of NATO no longer seems justified. Money that was spent on the space race to achieve technical superiority and a sense of national pride is now being wasted on medicare reform, which benefits few at the cost of many.

Obviously this is not proofread nor edited for clarity, but I am interested in hearing opinions.
 

AAjax

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2001
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Well, there are more Russian women in the US now, so I would say its a win for us.

hypothetically speaking anyhow since we are all nerds and never gonna score with them anyway (well most of us)


:p
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
57,118
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Yes, we are far better off. You can believe the fear mongering and negativity all you want, or you can talk to someone who actually lived through the Cold War.
 

beer

Lifer
Jun 27, 2000
11,169
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Originally posted by: Amused
Yes, we are far better off. You can believe the fear mongering and negativity all you want, or you can talk to someone who actually lived through the Cold War.

Well thats why I am asking. I didn't live through the cold war. That is why I am posting this - to get a sense of the opinion from people who lived through it.
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
57,118
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Originally posted by: beer
Originally posted by: Amused
Yes, we are far better off. You can believe the fear mongering and negativity all you want, or you can talk to someone who actually lived through the Cold War.

Well thats why I am asking. I didn't live through the cold war. That is why I am posting this - to get a sense of the opinion from people who lived through it.

I lived through the last quarter of it. My siblings lived through a bit more of it, and my parents lived through all of it. The fear was quite prevelant in society. The US and USSR came to the brink so many times, one in particular with the Cuban Missile Crisis, that the fear of terrorism today kinda pales in comparison. Then, it was doomsday. Today its a few bombings. One city nuked by terrorists or a rouge nation (most extreme scenario... probably will never happen) is not as frightening as the whole world destroyed many times over (was a very real possibility).

Not only that, but communism killed far, FAR more people than Hitler and terrorism ever did.

Yes, the world is a far better place.
 

ajpa123

Platinum Member
Apr 19, 2003
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Are we better off.. I have no idea.. but we are going to have to deal with China as an emerging player in this world

China is going to be a factor of shaping our future:

Most of this is quoted from a Goldman Sachs Ecomonist from an article in Business Week.

China and US have contributed to 2/3 of the world economic growth over the past 4 years
The US is the worlds largest consumer society, and over the next decade, China is destined to become the largest producer of goods.
In 5 years, China's economy will be the 3rd largest, behind the US and Japan.

China has little or no say in the Big 7/8.
This is sure to change eventually..

The last time a country challenged the status quo in this world (Germany/Japan), it led to major worldwide conflict, will it happen again ?????????????
 

LAUST

Diamond Member
Sep 13, 2000
8,957
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Originally posted by: ajpa123
Are we better off.. I have no idea.. but we are going to have to deal with China as an emerging player in this world

China is going to be a factor of shaping our future:

Most of this is quoted from a Goldman Sachs Ecomonist from an article in Business Week.

China and US have contributed to 2/3 of the world economic growth over the past 4 years
The US is the worlds largest consumer society, and over the next decade, China is destined to become the largest producer of goods.
In 5 years, China's economy will be the 3rd largest, behind the US and Japan.

China has little or no say in the Big 7/8.
This is sure to change eventually..

The last time a country challenged the status quo in this world (Germany/Japan), it led to major worldwide conflict, will it happen again ?????????????
It's definantly possible.

Our gov likes to concentrate on how much we helped Russia and it's people and this and that, and it's very true. But one thing they don't bring up much is because it's a fear, Communism can create a very powerful country. And China will be another Big Red to prove it dispite how much their people may suffer from it.
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
51,948
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Yes. We are much better off since the fall of the Soviet Union.

The threat of global nuclear conflict has been greatly decreased. During the height of the Cold War a huge array of nuclear forces were on high alert. Eventually a mistake could have caused an accident. We came close on several occasions. With the Soviet Union gone, that is no longer needed.

The majority of the old Soviet forces that were maintained are rusting and in disrepair due to lack of funds. Sales of equipment and technology are no doubt watched by U.S. intelligence with great care. Combine that with our continued investment in new weapon systems and technology make entering into a conventional conflict with the U.S. foolish.

A terrorist network might be able to take out one city or two. There is no way for them to achive the destruction that the Soviets and the U.S. could have inflicted on the world.

Rouge nations present their own problems. They can be hadled via diplomacy or selective military intervention.
 

TheBoyBlunder

Diamond Member
Apr 25, 2003
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beer - You mention the apollo rocket. I believe you're thinking of the apollo program, which was launched on the saturn 5 rocket. One was indeed lost, but that was due to a slight mechanical failure and horrible fire before launch, not mechanical failure afterwards.

/picky
 

Sahakiel

Golden Member
Oct 19, 2001
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Yes and no.

Yes, because humans have a tendency to adopt stable social order with a hierarchial topology. There has to be clear differentiation between social rulers and the ruled. The most stable societies are monarchies, dictatorships, and oligarchies. With oligarchies, ruling members tend to have their own social pecking order. However, any social order will tend towards instability without a just ruling body. That's why dictatorships have a bad reputation. The dictator is usually pretty cruel or lacks fairness.

No, because the U.S. is a pansy which means ever since the fall of the Soviet Union (which, if I recall correctly, ruled over more people and countries than the U.S.-led democratic front) the world has been sliding into anarchy. We're seeing the emergence of multiple world powers and like any democratic system (everyone with equal power) there is a lot bickering and multiple nations with personal agendas. Something like Shakespear at an international level.
 

everman

Lifer
Nov 5, 2002
11,288
1
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When you really look into the details of the Cuban Missile crisis, it's amazing how close we came to annihilation. So from that perspective yes we're better off without the USSR.
Could it happen, say with China? I would highly doubt that after looking at how much they have invested here in the U.S. You'd need the N. Korean president to take over China for it to happen.

Basically as world powers gain more and more interest and become dependent on other countries, war among world powers is far less likely because they'd just be nuking themselves in the foot.